Is The Human Condition Lost In Thought?

[minsocal]

Some suggestions:

 

As far as human cognition is concerned, Buddhism makes no distinction between emotion and thinking. Kierkgaard (1813-1855) reached a similar conclusion and sought to overcome the (Western) dichotomy of reason and emotion by laying emphasis on immediate experience preceeding subjectivity and objectivity (May, 1967). This is the the same approach found in Whitehead and in Kant (when he refers to "bottom up" processing).

 

As to the "collective unconscious" ... if it is meant in reference to Jung (one of the first to use the term), then the collective unconscious refers to that part of our being directly attributable to evolution, including emotion, survival strategies, and intuition. It is intuition that provides the basis for concepts. Emotion supports the valuing processes, etc.

 

In short ... there are no isolated psychic processes (Jung).

 

Myron

[Nick the Nevermet]

No offense to anyone here, but I have to admit this thread has quite effectively boggled my mind into a state of confusion. As I think someone else observed, I'm not at all sure now what it is we are actually talking about. I'm just going to re-read, think, and quietly sit back and just try to follow a while.

 

No... it's rather understandable, and no offense is taken. We have about two or three different conversations half occurring, and defining terms is not occurring as much as it should (I'm one of the big offenders here).

[Nick the Nevermet]

Can't say I know anything about Pelagianism, so I had to consult theopedia.

 

I think we're using the term 'salvation' rather broadly here; I'm not sure how you mean it. I think I usually mean something along the lines of 'saving me from myself', and it involves opening up to a bottomless grace immanent in all my doings.

 

Sorry - I misremembered a PM discussion, and thought I had ranted about that directly at you. So, my bad. In line with my post to Jennell, let me try to back up and clarify what I was claiming. I think part of the confusion was that I babbled for far too long on something I knew was a side point, something that I knew nobody (let alone Joseph) was arguing, but was a potential avenue to go down based on the discussion.

 

First, Pelagius' thought, which promoted a form of Christianity that, because of the way it was based in (seemingly positive) concepts of human potential and free will, became extremely legalistic, moralistic, and effectively devoid of grace. Despite how much the parts of Religious Right loves it, the statement "I can choose to be pure" is an extremely problematic statement for me, especially if one weds it to a classic Christian notions of salvation meaning (Heaven, no Hell, etc.). The fact he interwove those statements about salvation with an argument that humanity had all the tools necessary to find and understand God on humanity's own terms is also problematic.

 

I am extremely wary of a claim that a particular human practice is the One True Way to Inner Peace / Know God / Eternal Life / Be a Good Person / Etc. Now, I am fully aware that is not the claim Joseph was making. However, one potential take-away claim that could emerge from this thread is "Meditative practice is the way to escape the prison of human thought, thereby gaining access to a deeper reality, allowing for a more authentic religious/spiritual experience." IMO, I think it could work that way for some people, but I made my more-or-less throw away comment because I'm wary about making that claim in a too rigid or too universal way, especially if we're linking it to a spiritual outcome (awareness of the collective unconscious or something), rather than a psychological outcome (this can help with my depression). Again, I'm aware I'm opposing something not present in the thread, but I also don't want it to show up. ...in retrospect, that doesn't make complete sense.

[Nick the Nevermet]

Thanks for that, Myron.

[JosephM]

Nick,

I think you have explained the reason for your comments quite well. Your reservations to me seem quite understandable in view of your clarification post and i believe your concern is warranted.

 

Joseph

[JenellYB]

Thanks,Nick...that helped a lot getting my balance back, lol...

Jenell

[JosephM]

Nick,

 

It seems to me another way could be dedication to selfless service of some sort. Some might refer to it as the way of the heart. While one is focused on unconditional love and service to others it seems to me it would be quite difficult to get lost in ones own thoughts.

 

Joseph

[Nick the Nevermet]

Nick, It seems to me another way could be dedication to selfless service of some sort. Some might refer to it as the way of the heart. While one is focused on unconditional love and service to others it seems to me it would be quite difficult to get lost in ones own thoughts. Joseph

 

Personally, I am much more comfortable with the idea being a move from self- to other-focused than I am with an argument about thought, but that's me. I'm sorry to be a bit of a jerk and disagree so much, Joseph, but you know I respect you, so I hope it's ok.

[JosephM]

Nick,

 

Agreement is never a requirement with me. Your views are most welcome. If we all believed exactly the same there would be no need for communications.

[JenellYB]

Well, it seems to me whether one is self focused, other focused or just focused on an outside distraction such as a ball game on tv, the change isn't in thought itself, but simply what your thoughts are about, where your thoughts are directed.

Jenell

[JosephM]

Good point Jenell,

 

It seems to me that what your thoughts are about or where they are directed makes all the difference in the world. Self thoughts seem to me to be generally ego based and create more mind activity . Whereas, focus on serving others tends to still and calm the thinking mind.so that a deeper dimension closer to the collective consciousness or that part that is connected to others is accessed. At least that is the way i see it. The exact reason why i do not know. Perhaps that is why in Christianity we are taught to care for others, be of one accord and one mind and to esteem others better than ourselves? Christianity to me teaches the way of the heart to God rather than focusing the mind on vanity (self) . Other wisdom traditions such as Hinduism and Buddhism may focus on the mind primarily through meditation or at different stages on compassion which is of the heart but i think the end is the same. Both perhaps keeping ourselves from being imprisoned or lost in self thoughts.

Joseph

[JenellYB]

Interestingly, the past week or so has presented me with an array of frustrating demonstrations of how commonly so many people seem to live not in any danger of getting lost within or imprisoned in their own thouughts, but quite the oppostive....they seem to live some mindless unthinking existence I simply cannot comprehend.

 

We all fall into mindlessness occasionally, we act out of routines, habits, expecially if very tired or sleepy, can do some really dumb things. You know, put the phone in the fridge and set the milk on the living room coffee table kind of stuff...or lose track of what we were supposed to be doing and wander off into an interestinng distraction. Or doing something without thought that goes badly, in after thought, wonder what was I thinking?? When it was really we just weren't thinking at all.

 

But sometimes it seems a lot of people STAY in that state more or less continuously...sometimes I wonder if they even CAN think!

 

Most of what I've encountered lately is connected to people that seem to live and think in a constant state of triviality and mindlessness. Their thoughts, conversations, rattling on about tv shows and celebrities and their comments about political candidates seem based more on the same ways of evaluating a favorite tv actor than on anything to do with serious real world issues, and personal conversations are all about what friend did what and what they had for dinner....

 

But what really gets me is how all the day to day superficiality seems to crowd out even common sense management of their daily lives, that they do not seem to use even knowledge they have. They aren't 'mentally impaired', they just don't USE their intellegence and things they know! It's like they 'forget' to use it. Or ignore it?

 

Examples...someone that KNOWS their car leaks/uses oil, was carrying spare bottles of oil in the trunk, but was in such a hurry to go by several friends' houses for trivial errands before time to be at work, "ingored" the flashing dash warning lights and increasing engine clatter until they found themselves sitting on the side of a road with a blown engine.....or a family wailing over their grief over the sudden and bloody death of their "beloved" 9 month old German Shepherd , as well as the lost of the large price they had paid for the registered purebred puppy, when he spewed most his blood out his rectum as he died of parvovirus, because, well, while they admit they knew puppies need shots, they just hadn't got around to it yet.....or one that knew his constuction job was close to completion and that there were no new contracts in the works, went out traded in a decent running fully paid for older vehicle and sunk himself into payments on a new pick-up truck he now can't pay....

 

jenell

[JosephM]

Jenell,

 

Perhaps we are on different wavelengths with thinking and reason. A thought proceeds an action. Your description of mindlessness is what i consider being LOST in thought. It usually lacks the faculty of sound reasoning.

 

Joseph

[BillM]

I know that I can sometimes become lost in my thoughts, or, rather, lost in other people’s thoughts. This doesn’t mean that I think that I think too much, for I think giving serious thought to things is a great tool for helping us to understand God, ourselves, and the universe better. What I mean is that I have these “old tapes” that sometimes play in my head that other people have given to me down through the years. While some of these old tapes are constructive, many of them (if not most) are destructive. And when I listen to them, I get lost, lost not in the sense that I don’t know where I am, but lost in the sense that I forget or am blinded to who I really am.

 

Here’s a short sample from a few of these old tapes given to me by my parents, my upbringing, my former religion:

“You weren’t planned, you’re a mistake.”

“You can do better than this, can’t you?”

“Winning is everything. You either win or you’re a loser.”

“You’ll never amount to anything.”

“You’re just a sinner saved by grace.”

“Your sin separates you from God.”

“You’re responsible for the death of Jesus.”

“If people you know go to hell, it is your fault for not warning them.”

 

These thoughts didn’t originate with me, I inherited them. But I’m learning that I don’t have to let them play in my head. These thoughts (and others like them) are not me. I don’t have to push the PLAY button. Or if they go off as a response to something, I can push the STOP button. It isn’t easy to do. These thoughts are embedded deep within me. But they are not me and I don’t have to stay lost in them. I can know and appreciate who I truly am and be free.

[JosephM]

wayseeker,

 

That's exactly what i'm trying to get at and mean by lost in thought. It can also include bits of music , fractured sentences and ideas that pop in ones head from seemingly nowhere.

[JenellYB]

sbnr1, yes, that's certainly a form of 'being lost in one's thoughts', that kind of dysfunctional mental programming, that we all have and that affects us all to some extent.

That kind of stuff can only be addressed at all through intentional thought. Some part of our mind must first recognize it, realize its even there, and then recognize the absurdity of it. Yes, it is 'triggered' without conscious thought, and as such is very much a true conditioned response, as defined within behavior theory in psychology. A true conditioned response, as the salavation of Pavlov's dogs, is not merely habit, and it is not under conscious control. We cannot prevent, control, or dismiss a conditioned response with simple reason or intentional thought. We can only attempt to address it by making the unconsious, conscious, so that we can change the programming sequence. Just as we as a user of a software on our computer, we might learn ways to try to avoid and deal with practical use issues pertaining to a bug or glitch within the program, it requires getting into the programming itself to 'fix' the problem. (the principle in Cognitive Behavioral Theory/therapy)

 

All of us have this kind of programming, each our unique set according to our developmental experiences. As I began to recognize some of my own, see how absolutely absurd they are, and how much of my difficulties in life have arisen out of them, I was shocked that they could have so much power over me, be so immune to my intellect and reasoning skills. But also true is that we have a lot of that programming that lies in silent stealth within our minds, escaping notice at all, simply because circumstances in our life situation may not yet have 'triggered' even very significantly dysfunctional ones. They are like concealed land minds that we just happen not to have stepped on just yet.

 

Those are greatly involved in the often surprising and unexpected dysfunction that arises when there is a significant change in a person's life circumstances, when confronted with new challenges, now problems and obstacles, situations that require response different from what worked in our past. I wrote in another post of the sets of life scripts, patterns in sequences of behavior and thought that kick in automatically in response to what others do or say, and how we react and respond inappropriately according to context. We see this when people that really seemed to have it together, were strong and competent and successful in life, until hit by a life-changing event, such as divorce in a long term marriage, loss of job/career, or onset of physical disability.

 

I watched my own Dad, to all appearances, a paragon of strength and responsibility and competency, psychologically crumple when the company he had worked for many years, and with which he was only several years away from fully vested retirement pension, used petty and even trumped-up 'reasons' to fire him and a handful of other older men that has been there with him all those years, from the early start-up days of that company. It was obvious a move to get rid of those soon to retire, to avoid paying out pensions. This was in the 70's, before pension laws and regulated were reformed to address that very kind of problem. A joint lawsuit resulted in a small cash settlement for the men, but all were left scrambling not only for new jobs, unexpectedly, but new options for their retirement plans. A major portion of the foundation of my Dad's sense of security and self-esteem was his belief in the now considered 'old fashioned' idea that a man could secure his life and future through being a hard-working, loyal company man. That if he worked hard, was loyal to and took care of his employer's best interests, his employer would take care of him in return.

 

A lot of that kind of thing is evident in many people that are solidly conservative and fundamentalist in their thinking..they simply cannot fathom the possiblity that life does not always work out according to how they believe it is 'supposed to.' This is underlying a whole lot of the attitudes in that portion of society that are so harshly judgemental and condemning of those that experience divorce, job loss, extended unemployment, poverty by circumstances and events beyond their control, or even disability from accident or illness. Why they are determined it is "their own fault". Because their sense of security rests upon, if I follow the rules, do what I'm supposed to, those things wont/cant happen to me.

 

Jenell

[BillM]

Your post says a lot, Jenell. I don't know where all of my "land-mines" are, which makes it difficult to remove them, difficult to prevent them from being triggered. And I think you are right that if become conscious of them, we can recognize how absurd some of these old tapes are. Unfortunately, I'm better at recognizing these land-mines after they have gone off and done damage than before-hand. But I'm working on ridding myself of the illusions of where my sense of worth and meaning come from. That needs to come from somewhere deeper than what I do or don't do. But it is still a struggle to sift through all the stuff and noise in my life to get to or be aware of that deeper self. It's there. I know it is. I just can't seem to "live there"...yet.

[JosephM]

wayseeker,

 

Sounds like you at least have a handle on it. It seems to me once one recognizes what is happening even after just reacting, it is just a matter of time and patience with one self til we start recognizing before the reaction and have the opportunity to , as i sometimes do, chuckle or smile at it and let it pass.

Joseph

 

PS Perhaps being lost in thought could be called compulsive thinking.

[Mike]

Strange that I would just happen to crack open a book and find a quote that vividly and succinctly expresses something very close to my own view on language:

 

 

"Reality is neither in here in the mind nor out there in the world; it is the interplay of both mind and world in language. Reality is relational and relationship. Even more simply, reality is language. What is there before us and is without language is as unknowable as the answer to the question of how we would feel had we never been born." John Crossan in 'The Dark Interval'

[minsocal]

Strange that I would just happen to crack open a book and find a quote that vividly and succinctly expresses something very close to my own view on language:

 

 

"Reality is neither in here in the mind nor out there in the world; it is the interplay of both mind and world in language. Reality is relational and relationship. Even more simply, reality is language. What is there before us and is without language is as unknowable as the answer to the question of how we would feel had we never been born." John Crossan in 'The Dark Interval'

 

I like Crossan for his honesty and directness. This view is consistent with Whitehead as found in Process and Reality, Chapter VIII, Symbolic Reference. The caveat is that symbolic reference introduces the possibilty of error because it is interpretive.

 

Myron

[JosephM]

Perhaps off topic in this thread Mike , but it seems to me that in human nature, reality is an illusion of perception.

Albert Einstein is quoted saying "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. "

 

But i think Ramana Marharshi speaks of true reality in language best...... " If Reality did not exist, could there be any knowledge of existence? Free from all thoughts, Reality abides in the Heart, the Source of all thoughts. It is, therefore, called the Heart. How then is one to contemplate it? To be as it is in the Heart, is Its contemplation."

 

Anyway, back on topic..... I think wayseeker touched on something when he said "But I'm working on ridding myself of the illusions of where my sense of worth and meaning come from. That needs to come from somewhere deeper than what I do or don't do."

 

It seems to me that when you no longer believe everything you think, you in a sense step out from thought and see that the thinker is not who you are. I think it is in observing thoughts and feelings rather than constantly entertaining or feeding them that awareness arises and in that space of stillness feelings and thoughts begin to diminish in intensity. And in my experience, one discovers that the thoughts and feelings you had are not who you are but are rather conditions of the human mind that arise and fall. It then dawns on one that nothing that comes and goes is you. You are the knowing rather than the condition that is known. I think that that is an awakening from compulsive thinking. Perhaps then the mind can then be used more as a tool in this world than as a master.

 

Just some thoughts to contemplate,

Joseph

[Mike]

Hi Joseph,

 

I do agree that there is a place deeper than thought. I like that quote from Marharshi.

 

John Crossan also says in the same paragraph that there's nothing 'behind' language (and I would include 'thought' as well). This denies the common-sense notion that there is an objective signified 'out there' to which language merely serves to correspond. I think, rather, we can see in our language (and thought) the very unfolding of actuality. When language is understood nondualistically, it becomes an expression or realization of intimacy or relationship. Is this not what poetry is? Poetry doesn't attempt convey or define some pre-given external reality. It does not entertain such pretenses, which is why I think poetry tends to be so much more powerful than dry prose.

 

I think those who look for an objective signified 'behind' language misses the true nature of what language is. Nothing is 'pre-given', it is only 'given', wholly present and open in mind. Of course, I would extend this reasoning beyond language and understand the mind, the world, and reality itself in such a way.

 

Peace,

Mike

[Mike]

 

I like Crossan for his honesty and directness. This view is consistent with Whitehead as found in Process and Reality, Chapter VIII, Symbolic Reference. The caveat is that symbolic reference introduces the possibilty of error because it is interpretive.

 

Myron

 

Hi Myron,

 

I'm not surprised that this has some consonance with Whitehead. It is a very intersubjective picture of things.

[minsocal]

"The process of adaptation requires a directed conscious function characterized by inner consistency and logical coherence. Because it is directed, everything unsuitable must be excluded in order to maintain the integrity of direction (Jung, 1960, p. 35)".

 

"It is therefore understandable, and even necessary, that in each individual the psychic process should be as stable and definite as possible, since the exigencies of life demand it. But this involves a certain disadvantage: the quality of directedness makes for the inhibition or exclusion of all those psychic elements which appear to be, or really are, incompatible with it, i.e., likely to bias the intended direction to suit their purpose and so lead to an undesired goal. But how do we know that the concurrent psychic material is "incompatible"? We know it by an act of judgment which determines the direction of the path that is chosen and desired [conation]. This judgment is partial and prejudiced, since it chooses one particular possibility at the cost of all the others. The judgment in its turn is always based on experience, i.e., on what is already known. As a rule it is never based on what is new, what is still unknown, and what under certain conditions might considerably enrich the directed process. It is evident that it cannot be, for the very reason that the unconscious contents are excluded from consciousness (Jung, 1960, p. 70)."

 

"The optimal state of inner experience is one in which there is order in consciousness. This happens when psychic energy - or attention - is invested in realistic goals, and when skills match the opportunities for action. The pursuit of a goal [conation, adaptation] brings order in awareness because a person must concentrate attention on the task at hand and momentarily forget everything else. These periods of struggling to overcome challenges are what people find to be the most enjoyable times of their lives. A person who has achieved control over psychic energy and has invested it in consciously chosen goals cannot help but grow into a more complex being. By stretching skills, by reaching toward higher challenges, such a person becomes an increasingly extraordinary individual . . . . "Flow" is the way people describe their state of mind when consciousness is harmoniously ordered, and they want to pursue whatever they are doing for its own sake. (p. 6) (Csikzentmihaly in Schnarch, 1991, p. 63).

 

What are the demands of an organized society? What sacrifice is demanded? What cost to society? What cost to the individual?

 

Myron