JosephM

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Thanks for sharing Soma.

Thanks for the clarification Kay. It appears to me that Hebrews 11:1 speaks stronger than belief using the word faith but perhaps that is not an accurate perception of what the writers meant. Thanks again, JM

Hi rivanna, I think alot of people share your definition however I agree with bobd because I define faith as it is defined in Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It seems to me this agrees with Jesus's teaching but not with the current use of the word faith By some of the church orginizations and most Christians. Faith to me has nothing to do with belief. Faith is 'seeing' the evidence in the spirit. It leaves no room for belief which may or may not be true. Faith on the otherhand is 'knowing'. Just a different view to consider though most will concur with your view. Love in Christ, JM

I applaud your fine post Bobd. JM

There is a nature within each of us that has the potential for all that you might deplore in this world. The NT speaks of it as the 'carnal nature', or by implication as the old 'creature' since it references us in Christ as a 'new' creature. This nature is said to be " 'enmity' against God as it is not 'subject' to the laws of God and neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7) 'enmity' = hostility - 'subject' = to be under obedience (Greek) This nature leads naturally by nature unto 'death' which is separation. It is a cross we as humans all have to bear. It came because of choice which the majority of us have no remeberance of at this time. To return to our rightful estate 'heaven', completeness, peace and love (which are the things we really want but seek as separate from God's light in a world of our own creation of opposites). It is necessary to 'crucify' = extinguish or subdue that nature to reaslize our true estate and unity. The cross is symbolic only and any blood sacrifice thought to be necessary for our redemption/salvation is purely from the standpoint of the carnal nature itself which is error. We are not 'expected' to do anything. God has no expectations because expectations are founded in belief about and God is beyond such a concept. God 'know's that in the fulness of times all will return to source. (Eph 1:10) (References are just for those who might require such to my statements, my authority to make such statements is not derived from references) In my view this is very insightful on your part. The significance of the cross of course could be better represented as what is required to step out of error rather than what is 'expected' as I have explained above. Excuse my pickiness.... But Jesus wasn't "actually trying to do" anything. He did it. He extinguished or subdued the flesh and suceeded in returning to the Father. His original teachings described the way he did this and it seems to me there remains a sufficient amount of his original teachings in the New Testament writings to point to that very way if one waits on God's spirit to quicken that which is true and dissolve that which is in error because of mans inability to understand and correctly relay the original teachings. Yes, wonderful observation. It is also helpful to remember that forgiving another is a pre-requisite for forgiving oneself. Yes it differs from typical Christianity definitions. However you can consider yourself by whatever tag uou desire, whether Christian or Progressive Christian. In the end it makes no difference what you call yourself. You are God's regardless of your label. May your understanding and knowledge of God grow without limits of a label. Love in Christ, JM

Hello October, It seems to me if God were a man then your statement might be true. Perhaps you might consider this. The things that are seen are made from the unseen. God is a Spirit. Form is manifested from non-form. Reason is a product of form and with it cannot 'see' beyond itself. The brain is created and is temporary and cannot know God through its devices. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. Just as the eye can only be an eye and cannot be an ear and likewise the ear can only channel sound and not sight, the brain cannot 'see' beyond itself. It can reason and create theology and myths about God but it cannot know God. The good news is that the 'real you' is not the body and mind but rather eternal spirit and through that spirit 'knows' God. Just a different view to consider, Love in Christ, JM

When I speak of the Spirit that has no needs, it is refering to the One or God. It is my experience and view that in true reality there is only God. There is nothing more or anyone else. And yes, all our needs are met by Spirit/God. All individualized consciousness are phenomena that come from the One. We refer to them as spirits because it is attached to an identity and is in a sense not physical but does manifest in the physical. When we get out of the way, both in physical and spiritual form we find we have no form yet are manifested in all forms and there is only One. All else is phenomena or make believe fiction worn like a costume of many colors til we awaken to our true nature. When awakened, you will say as Jesus did, I and my Father are One. Subject and Object disappear along with 'here' or 'there' , time ceases and no languaging is necessary. Love in Christ, JM

Great site. Wonderful and practical information for everyone. Thanks for the link. Love in Christ, JM

Wonderful post rivanna. I think your last paragraph may be the most direct and best answer geared to my perception of what October is looking for. I hope her question is answered to her satisfaction. Love in Christ, JM

Thanks for the link Russ. As long as another religion or denomination is not in the reformation perhaps that would be fine. The article was very well expressed and contains many views seen posted on this site. Love in Christ, JM

Thanks for sharing Bob VE, I especially like the phrase "Spiritually is a commitment to immersion in God". And also the rest including the part concerning the comparison of finger pointing to the moon not being the moon. Perhaps some of these words will help answer OA questions but as you seem to know, words are a limitation to experience. Love in Christ, JM

Hi OA, Okay. It seems the word spiritual is used very loosely by many. I gave you my definition to contrast what it is not to me and found that as the most effective way to communicate it, however, allow me to try without using the word 'spirit' and then address your re-wording of the question. "What is Spiritually to me" It is the essence of ones true nature that is beyond mind or body yet is inclusive of both. The problem of course with that statement is it may appear contradictory or still not really give one an understanding or suitable answer. At best, for most, it just raises more questions. Now for your re-wording. I can only tell you what I perceive for others as far as 'spiritual needs' because I see the the Spirit as having no needs. It is complete in itself. However, Mind and body has needs that can't be seen and perhaps that is what people refer to as 'spiritual needs'. Many in my view, consider the etheric mind and body their real spirit and the physical body with mind, emotions a shadow of this spirit. It then of course has needs to evolve to correct its weaknesses to stop its perceived sufferrngs. This spirit still sees itself as a separate identity and takes up human life in one possible attempt to correct its perceived weaknesses. Therefore one believing thus would express needs such as patience , peace, joy, love, and other fruits of the spirit as 'their spiritual needs'. Of course then one could relate or sound the same as psychological needs since the physical is a projection of spirit. The truth however, in my view, is we are already one and perfect in 'Christ' or 'God' and have merely to rediscover who we are by deprogramming the projections of the individual mind which doesn't exist in true reality. Sorry if this got too deep or makes no sense. It is only my present view as best I can relate to consider. Love in Christ, JM

spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l) adj. 1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. Spritual is an intangible. Flesh is one thing and spirit another. Flesh is seen and easily grasped with the mind but spirit is not seen with the physical eyes and is like the wind. You know it is there and can feel the effects of it but cannot see from where it comes and to where it goes. Here are some contrasting comparison terms that might help.... This is my personal experience and view and only given as an aid as it may not be applicable in all cases. Spiritual sees God as one with all creation. Religion sees God as separate. Spiritual teaches unconditional love and acceptance. Religion has an 'us' and a 'them' Spiritual doesn't need an organization. Religion re4quires one. Spiritual doesn't need rules or controls. Religion needs rules and controls. Spirituality doesn't force itself on anybody. Religion requires Proselytizing Spirituality teaches a God of Love and Peace. Religion teaches a God of emotions such as jealousy, hate, anger, vengefulness and changing his mind. Spirituality teaches trust only in God. Religion teaches trust in a book or individual. Spirituality uses love to attract. Religion uses hate or fear. Spirituality is grateful. Religion is prideful. Spirituality relinguishes opinions. Religion is very opinionated. Spirituality requires deprogramming. Religion requires programing. Hopefully, this gives you some taste for the definition of spirituality in a round about way as it is difficult to define something intangible in tangible words. Love in Christ, JM

Hi All, Wow.... What a long thread concerning a simple issue. I barely got through the three pages to the end My response would be... Why should one be offended? Paul is merely expressing his own cultural opinions. He wrote it as a letter and I have never seen his permission given that it should become scripture. 1 corinthians Chapter 11 contains 15 versus more of the same 'stuff' but one must not stop before verse 16... 1 Cor. 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. He clearly indicated that they were customs only and not applicable to the churches of God. In light of his more inspirational statements such as : Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Taken in context, one can plainly see there can be no difference in Christ. All else is tradition and custom. Does not even the 'spirit' speak the same to you? The real problem comes from the consideration of all his epistles (letters) as being sacred scripture. Letters containing inspired words (and some not inspired), yes!, but sacred.... only to to those who believe all they are told. Love in Christ, (where all are equal) JM

Hi Soma, There is no reason that all (people) can't be accepted. I agree with you they can be. But can it all be true? In my view, there are obviously many different levels of truth as their are different levels of consciousness. Man's truth is dependent upon his current level. An angry man sees his world as antagonistic. A fearful man sees his world as frightening. An Optimistic and willing man sees his world as hopeful. A man of reason sees his world as meaningful, whereas a man of LOVE and PEACE sees his world as perfect and complete. My conscious understanding of 'God' now is not the same as it was 20 years ago nor might it be the same tomorrow. To a child God is taught as a man and understood at that level. To a child it is 'bad to cross the street alone. As we grow 'God' becomes more undefineable in words and the concept of a man is no longer acceptable. We have to use abstract words like, love, truth, life, light and so forth to begin to even communicate that which is beyond communications in words. As we grow we find it is was not 'bad' to cross the street alone, just unwise for one not skilled in the wisdom of caution. Terms like true and false even lose old meanings. Only truth is now said to exist. And on a certain level of consciousness that is true. Why because false has no existance of its own. We call something false only to indicate the absence of truth. Truth is all there is. False is a fabrication of the duality of mind. Love is found to exist but 'hate' is a non-existant fabrication of mind when there is a certain absence of a degree of love. The point of its demarcation varying widely with social cultures, customs, teachings and a myriad of other factors. Why is this seemingly play of words important to the spiritual seeker. It is important because the mind is much like a computer, a tool to be used. It constantly takes positions, uses words and makes opinions on things that it has no real context of. Understanding how and why it believes anything helps us to see how it constantly by nature tries to divide us and find differences. The carnal mind itself delights in religions that create a 'good' and a 'bad', a 'them' and an 'us', 'believers' and 'non-believers', 'saved' and 'lost', 'jews' and gentiles', 'elect' and 'forsaken', 'believers' and 'infidels' when in truth in the eyes of God, there is no such distinction. We are all one. We are all creations of God without one being valued above another. How could it be any other way. Can an all-loving father value one son above another? Man's initial pristine state was in an absence of such distinctions of mind and without 'the knowledge of 'good' and 'evil''. It seems to me that if we all knew our intimate true relationship one to another and to God there would be no need for morality or religions. There would be no need to believe all is true or all is not true. Each in his/her own state of evolution would be accepted as perfect as is. As Soma says.... No mistakes.... From that perspective, I find all of Soma's post to be true. Love in Christ, JM