October's Autumn

I've seen some who come seeking. They may not be Progressive but they are progressive. They are usually the ones who come asking sincere questions. They don't post aggressively. Fundamentalist and Conservatives are already in a hell. I've found that people will move from those positions to Progressive when they are ready to give up their idols of inerrancy, hell, etc. I saw an experienced it when I was in Seminary. Attempting to convert is useless, ime. Motiviation for me is the truth but it comes to a casting pearls before swine. Until there is a change of heart to really hear God then nothing we say will make a difference. Progressive/Liberal Christianity has a voice to those who are already seeking. I have commented to several people at church that it took me 19 years to find the UCC. It was only a few months before I started going that I even knew such a church existed. There are many like me out there. I normally ignore the comments for the reason you stated (in fact I have some on ignore) but I draw the line when people start using the bible and God to attack people who GLBTQ.

You are taking them out of context. I was making a point. You call people who are gay an abomination yet do things that the bible calls an abomination. You should be lookin inward instead of condemning those Jesus does not condemn. You may also want to go and study Greek, at least. You don't have to master it, but actually study it. You'll find it quite enlightening. Being progressive isn't about tolerance. Jesus was Progressive and he was in no way tolerant of the conservatives of his day (the Pharisees, for example). In fact, they pissed him off when they attacked those of his society who were without power. Just as you pissed me off for doing the same thing. BTW, Progressives who think the bible condemns homosexuality? It is simply poor scholarship. You conservatives don't corner the market on that. "holds up a mirror" Seems to me you are the one doing this. MOW and FLOW both explained exactly what I was doing. Thanks, btw.

And the translators of the NIV masculanized her name even though no such name exists in that time period!

"it is homosexuality that is described as an 'abomination'". So is mixing two different kinds of fabrics. You might want to check your labels. Your an abomination. Don't forget gluttony. And Gossip. I don't see you running around telling fat people they are going to hell. Sodom & Gomorah was destroyed because of inhospitality. If you knew anything about the bible you would know that. The abominations was rape. What really is frightening is that you think a consensual act between two adults is horrible but not rape. Sick. And are you really naive enough to think this was the first time they ganged raped someone? The men were not looking for a consensual sex act. Rape is about power. Straight men rape other men. As far as "strage flesh" goes, do you read Hebrew? I didn't think so. It could just as easily (and more likely) be refering to beastiality, rape, pedophila, etc. By the way, oral sex is also an abomination. At one point in the Hebrew Bible does it say for men not to "lie" with men. There is no immediate context from which derive the circumstances. (There is nothing about females. Like I said, it is all about who the father is.) There is one place where supposedly Paul appears to condemn same sex acts between people of the same gender. That is assuming of course that Paul actually wrote it. Since we know that men married women to have children and had sex with men. Again, we are not talking about a monogamous relationship. There is no context to condemn something that didn't exist. Your last point is irrelevant. What does Jesus talking about marriage have to do with anything? Nothing, per your usual. Considering that same sex contact existed quite openly in Jesus day if he had an opinion on it he would have said something. God says gay people should be allowed to marry. End of Discussion.

ROFL

No political part is innocent in these murders. It is the individuals who suffer for the sake of the Nationalistic Egos. There is no reason why Palestinians should not have a homeland. There is no reason why Israeli's should not have a homeland. There is no reason why they can not share the same space. The Media isn't just lying to us, it is lying to those who are living in the midst of it all. Anyone else get an email from Pat Robertson? He thinks this is God. What kind of god does he believe in? I deleted the email. I probably should have saved it and posted the content. God tells him a lot of things, apparently. He is like a seer or a soothsayer.

I start teaching a SUnday school class in September: Bible stories for adults: rated R! I'll have to find that book!

Not me, my husband! It sounds like the Equivalency Fallacy to me, though.

Bull PUCKEY! Bush doesn't care about human life or he wouldn't have started a war. I can't believe you can still defend the EVIL man in the White house. Blindness.

Most of what conservatives/fundamentalists think are admonitions against homosexuality are not. They are against rape (Sodom & Gomorrah), prostitution, and pedophila. Also keep in mind that there was no such thing as being in a monogamous relationship between two males at this time. You married a woman to have children with and had a social/sexual relationship with a male (the Greek trend). I'm not clear if all men did this or if it was only men who were gay or bisexual (by today's standards) who took on a male lover. From what study I've done on it I'm under the impression it was more of a status symbol -- much like driving and SUV or having a big house. Life spans were also realitively short and were primarily about reproduction. The bible has really nothing to say about women because there was no ###### wasted. As long as you can identify the father of her child no one particularly cared if she was sexual with another woman. Sex is all about paternity. Can you really believe that Solomon was able to satisfy all his wives and concubines? How do you think they had their sexual needs met? The bible has nothing to say about same sex marriage because no such thing existed at that time. Just as it has nothing to say about computers, cell phones, cars, etc. We can only determine our beliefs (if we choose the bible as a guide for them) based on principles. Like: Do unto others. Love your neighbor. Judge not. etc.

In true Psychology/Psychiatry disorder is recognized when it limits a persons ability to function. For example: someone might be afraid to go out into public places but it isn't really a disorder until they are unable to leave home at all. Doesn't mean that they may not choose to get help to be less anxious when they do go out. Normal is a range. Disorder is what makes one miserable.

When I went to Israel I got some different perspectives on the version the Media/Politians likes to put on it. The everyday people want peace. I don't think they care too much about the land being split and they get along pretty well. It is the extremists who cause most of the problems. Palestinans (pardon my spellings) want equal rights -- currently they are second class citizens. And they all just really want to raise their families, send their kids to college, see their grandchildren, etc. General rule of thumb: Don't believe anything the media says, they just want to make money by selling sensationalism. Bingo! Don't think Bush isn't interested because he thinks that he is going to usher in the end of times by starting wars in the Middle East!

Growing up in a church that took things literally I feel confident in saying people who say they take everything the bible says literally and believe every word are only fooling themselves. There is nothing in the New Testament to undo the law of the Hebrew Bible which states that you are not to mix two different kinds of fibers when making clothing. I have yet to see a church or person who follows that law. When my mom said she took everything the bible said literally and nothing was culture I asked her when she started wearing a head covering. I also wonder how many people who say they take everything literally and believe it all do with people who are overweight. Gluttony is a huge sin and gluttons are condemned in the same breath as male prostitues and pedophiles (which are often confused in Englislh translations with "homosexuals.") But I don't see people running around to funerals damning those who are overweight. Of course you can also be a glutton by having too much money. And we know what Jesus said about a rich man -- can't get in. The needle and camel thing is literal, by the way. I'd been told there is a gate going into Jerusalem that was called the eye of the needed and a camel had to get on its knees, blah, blah, blah. I went , there is no such place. Jesus is actually saying that rich people will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Well, it turns out people pick and choose what they believe, literally. Of course you have to deal with the contradictions to. Are women not to speak in church or are they not to speak unless their heads are covered? Do they need to wear a head covering or is their hair their covering? ARe women not to braid their hair? Were humans created first as in the 2nd account of creation or were they created last, with women as the crowinging glory as in the 1st account of creation. So many things to believe, literally, makes one's head spin, doesn't it? ahhh, thus the problem with claiming literal interpretation. And this was an easy one. Not all of them are so easy, like the creation story. Never intended to be science or taken literally. It is poetry. For Hebrew poetry one is too look for the point: God (in whatever name taken in the Hebrew) is THE God. I suspect the creation stories that exist are all for the purpose of which groups god is THE god. So of course, the Hebrews had to have their own story to show that their god was THE god. Well, to some people that means they had to be "equipped" with a ######. Interesting requirement for becoming a leader.

Regarding Ephesians: We must realize that two things to understand what it is saying. First, the divisions were not in the original documents. THEWRITERSWROTELIKETHISINALLCAPITALLETTERSWITHNOPUNCTUATIONORSPACEBETWEENTHEENDS OFSENTENCESORPARAGRAPHSORANYSUCKTHINGSWEFINDINMODERNTRANSLATIONSOREVENGREEKBIBLES . So, by content what it begins with is: Submit one to another. So the first thing the writer of the passage is saying is that hubands and wives are to submit to each other. You have to back up a verse and keep the content together. The second problem we have with this particular section of Ephesians is that it has years of biblical interpretation and sermons built on it. We need to view it with fresh eyes. Note that the writer does NOT tell women to love their husbands. Does that mean that women are not supposed to love their husbands? I can't imagine anyone believing that is true. For whatever reason to this particular audience, the writer felt a need to tell those who were receiving the letter that (a) they needed to submit to each other. Then goes on to tell them specifically that men needed to love their wives and women needed to submit to their husbands. It doesn't mean that women are NOT to love their wives nor does it mean that husbands are NOT to submit to their wives.

That is a good VERY good reason! I think waiting until you feel more sure of yourself is important for YOU. You may find you want to defend yourself or you may want to simply realize they aren't going to understand (the latter is my situation). But it helps tremendously to have a solid sense of self before you open up to your parents, if you choose to!

I came back for the "We believe in God." and would add, "But sometimes we don't!"

I've found a home at the UCC.

My grandmother died last weekend and I couldn't cry. When my other grandparents died I cried when I found out, when I saw them, and during the funeral. I didn't cry during any of these times for my grandmother. I knew there was a reason I wasn't crying but couldn't figure it out. After the graveside service I sat in a chair and closed my eyes. I found myself "talking" to her. I told her I didn't believe in her god and a lot of stuff I could never tell her in real life. The point is that in the long run it doesn't help to hide we are from our parents/families. My family has come to an understanding -- we rarely discuss religion or politics. But, there is an awareness that my younger sister and I are both different in our beliefs than the rest of the family. You are an adult, Chad. There is no reason for you to be ashamed or embarassed aobut your beliefs. My mom is also good at guilt. If I can't sleep at night I must feel guilty about something. I've learned to simply ignore it, not easy, but I'm getting better. I sometimes will contradict her. Not easy -- and I live across the country from them and have 13 years on you! If you feel a need to rebel now and sneak behind there back, go for it. Like you, I never rebelled as a teenager. OTOH, I spent most of my 20's angry with my parents and avoiding them. It wasn't until I hit my 30's that I was able to do the work necessary to be able to begin to build any kind of relationship with them. Taking into account what you've said about your mom, burning bridges might not be so bad. Sometimes it is best to cut abusive ties. Is there any way you could move out sooner? Live in the same area with someone else? You may find help with a church that you are interested in attending. Hope something in there helped.

I was thinking about this earlier. I did come up with one "meaning" that fits with Jesus' other sayings. Children were very powerless. This fits with the Sermon on the mount. I would guess Jesus was trying to communicate that they have to give up their power in order to enter the kindgdom of heaven.

The media is friend only to sensationalism. Although there have been lawsuits against tv stations for not making their airwaves accessable to all (in regards to not airing the UCC extravagant welcome ads). Thanks to the internet, progressives are able to get out there and show the world who they/we are! That is how I found such a thing existed! We just have to keep demanding that we are here. Maybe we can get some progressive in broadcasting who will be willing to show the world that there is more out there than Jerry Falwell's and George Bush's of the world!

I am an independent as in small "i." While I tend to end up voting more for democratic candidates, I find that often their policies are too conservative on many issues. I am not particullary anti-republican I just think the religious right has hijacked the party. If you look at some of their basic values: states rights, not ammending the constitution unless absolutely necessary, etc. They are pretty good. The only time I want the fed. government to take over is on issues of discrimination because it takes the south too long to figure out that bigotry is a bad think: think desegregation, interracial marriage, property laws for women, and gay marriage. Democrats have the problem of appearing anti-religion when they should be religious/non-religious inclusive instead. As far as socialism goes I don't know of any Progressives in the US (although I'm sure there are some) who are pro-socialist. The problem is that Socialism only works at the grassroots. If all the people who called themselves Christians actually followed Jesus' commands I don't think poverty would be an issue. Unfortunately many subscribe to the philosophy that God gives them their material goods and screw the poor!

I read about. Sometimes I can tell if something is good by the negative response I suspect her appointment is a very good thing! That will be a good way for you to break away from the church. Get as many Sunday mornings as you can! I couldn't break until I went to college. Then I suffered through the first summer home. The second and third summers I made sure I had jobs elsewhere so I didn't even go home!

I hear ya! I suspect we really don't understand what Jesus meant when he said that. The church explanations don't really fit Jesus, imo. It is a puzzling quote and I wonder if it is authentic. That is because we have better diagnosis of children (until a few years ago it was not believed a child could suffer from schizophrenia or bipolar disorder -- we now know that they can) and since prozac there has been a break through in the development of drugs for these disorders. Here is some info. When I was student teaching I had a child who was autistic and a select mute. His mother told me that it was not until he was put on an anti-depressant that he was able to talk to anyone at school let alone make friends. The anti-depressant has made all the difference for him. My professor has a son who is also autistic. WIth several treatments including anti-depressants and Abilify (a mood stablizer) he, for the first time wants to make friends and is able to function at levels close to normal. It is a miracle as far as his family is concerned. Talk to any teacher in special education or regular ed who has worked with a child with severe ADHD and how the child went from being a terror in the classroom to able to focus on their work. Even children notice the difference and will comment. Despite sound bites from the media, when prescribed by a psychiatrist, not a GP, these medications change lives for the better. Both the lives of the children and the lives of their families and friends. The media is only interested in what sells, not what is true.

Undone, I completelyhear you and have experienced many of the feelings you describe both before and after. Believe it or not I found great comfort in the movie the Matrix -- I recently just watched again. I find that even though I may not be able to attain the feelings from before at least now there is an honesty in my relationship with God and with religion. To me, it is the difference between the living in the Matrix and having the feelings that were manufactured and living outside the Matrix and having a genuiness. I'm on a journey, so who knows where I'll end up next.

Thanks for the heads up, Des!