thormas

Yet some of us and others have already made the point that there is a difference between those depicted above and those who committed treason in the service of slavery. Interesting that there are no legal bills with the images of those that committed treason.

Paul has adequately responded to the 'basing opinions on propaganda' charges and come out ahead. Besides that is simply an old ploy of those who ignore history and push their own propaganda: the war of northern aggression is always a favorite as is a 'patriotic' defense of statues as led by..........well the trumpeter yesterday. The issue of statues - not the PR - will remain with up but eventually the status will go, some to museums and others to the garbage bin of history - alongside all the imagined trumpster statues, memorials and places named after him that dance in his head as he tweets beyond midnight in his hamburger stained bathrobe.

Paul, I applaud you on your research, reporting and most especially your empathy toward your fellow human beings. You are on the right side of history: the last state flag in the United States has dropped the confederate flag; the SEC and the NCAA spoke and football won over a lost ideology, defeated ages ago; the NFL now supports its players; Nascar, a huge spot in the south, had banned the confederate flag; and the statues continue to come down, now and in our future. America is browning after all. And those who chant 'white power' are increasing seen as those who never understood their history and, therefore, could never bear witness to the new world forming on our horizon - in which all of us are, in word, deed, action and law, equal! These monuments will come down, Forts will be renamed, the last of the gentlemen generals, although some admired for personal traits, will be highlighted and REMEMBERED as committing treason. Yet in spite of their defeat and surrender, the names of these once proud warriors were hijacked and statues built to re-write a history that they never accomplished in life. The Southern heritage is defeated and gone but what one can almost hear history echo with voices long gone, yet getting stronger, getting louder "......thank God Almighty, free at last............all ARE Free at Last.'

Another example of cancel culture (wondering about his position on the statues) combined with ruining the neighborhood. Are his kids mortified, is his wife fit to be tied, are the neighbors making themselves scarce? What was this guy thinking and, even more so, what was the trumpster thinking: didn't see/hear the chant. Sure?

No grasping - there for all to see!

Of course I understood your intent Joseph and we can get into philosophical/ethicak discussions of many human actions over the course of our history. But historically, the confederacy lost. As you stated clearly, "Yes Thomas, the Confederate army surrendered." The historical really it that the Confederate cause was defeated and should have stayed in the ruins of history except for some who never accepted that they were wrong, who insisted their case was noble, who continued to believe that black men and women were inferior and who erected their monuments and wave their flag in order to recapture a glory that never was.

1816? The economy was built on slavery and as put it in the Landrieu speech, "the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, made it clear that the Confederate cause was about maintaining slavery and white supremacy. He said in his now famous ‘cornerstone speech’ that the Confederacy’s “cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.” You fight a losing cause as did the condereracy.

It is a great speech Paul, speaks eloquently to the issue and reflects nicely what you have in mind and what you have said. Good Find!

Well, that's rich. Please check the surrender. Hint the losers surrender, the winners don't. This is rewriting and ignoring (or simply not understanding) history as its worst: we now have those who declare, regardless of the facts, that the Confederacy didn't lose

And he thereby committed treason .................in the cause of southern dependency on slavery. And he lost so there is no reason for the winners to have to suffer monuments to men who committed such treason, fought against the United States and were soundly defeated.

Exactly, for what other reason? The civil war was about slavery - all other 'reasons' are an attempt to rewrite history. This heritage was wrong in itself, this heritage was defeated, yet this heritage still has 'hangers-on' who see this heritage as glorious, its generals sterling examples of honorable gentlemen - yet it is all a mirage for those who broke their oath, who committed treason and who were defeated and their way of life judged to be a failure. The confederate flag is symbolic of nothing more than this failed heritage and support for slavery. I applaud the SEC and the NCAA in their stance toward those colleges that fly and honor such a flag: they will never be honored with highly visible, financially rewarding Championship games. Let's see how fast those flags change.

There are efforts to remove statues beyond the direct intervention of protestors but what is a statue compared to the the defeated heritage and support for slavery that has continued to give space to violence against black men and women (again when were this 'heritage' constructed?). Sometimes protestors, of necessity, go the extra mile. I'm sure the British didn't like our tea party but did it make the protestors a mob? was it a necessary step in their process? was it merely reveling in destruction or did the destruction have a larger purpose? Are some over zealous? Are they human beings who are flawed and make mistakes? Yet, their instinct to remove the staues of a treasonous heritage that fought to continue to enslave human beings, statues that were put up in a Jim Crow era (unless you support that stuff) is on the mark. And it is inevitable: the day will come when all such statues are removed, when forts are named for those who fought for the union/the constitution and when the entire confederate movement will be looked on as a low point in US history and the history of the world.

I do like fantasy. The protestors and those who support them aren't deatroying 'their own culture' - they are removing statues and wanting to rename the remnants of a 'lost and defeated culture that committed treason in the name of slavery' that was imposed on the USA during the Jim Crow era - when the 'losers' yet again sought to ignore and do harm the the country, its citizens and the Constitution.

I understand the term cancel culture but actually don't use it. I think there is a difference between 'yesterday's heroes' and statues, memorials and the naming of places of importance for those who committed treason against the USA. Washington and Roosevelt were both great and flawed men but they both supported, promoted, fought for and were always for 'these United States' and the Constitution. Not so Confederate generals and their President: by definition, they were against the union, these United States - fought against it and sought to destroy that union. They deserve no memorials in the union that they fought against and that defeated them (the were the losers). Many/most (the vast majority, SPLC)of those memorials were themselves 'cancel culture' built during Jim Crow segregation 1890-1950s. It is informative to read what Robert E Lee wrote about states. These statues do not reflect 'our heritage' - the heritage that is the USA................... the confederate 'heritage is gone and defeated. All such statues should be taken down (and placed in museums) from places of public honor, all forts should be renamed for heroes who fought for the United States and its Constitution in the Civil War or other wars for the union, for the United States of America. History is written by the winners............and the Confederate states lost; they were the losers.

P, You do realize that the calendar you're talking about is also wrong (as mentioned by Paul). It was a guesstimate when Jesus was born and they called that 1 AD (CE) but they were wrong: Jesus was born before what they called 1AD so Jesus was born in BC or what is now called BCE. So the atheist and for that matter none of us, including Jesus know when we were born. However you must realize the is not the date of your birth but the life lived that is the true mark of a man or woman. You are fighting a losing battle and a battle that no one cares about.

Of course. And do you have evidence to the contrary? You show me yours and I'll show you mine.

But I do believe that God IS and thus all is open before me.............including a man-made calendar. And such who believe as I do, don't 'need' to have somewhere to deal with existence - existence rather is celebrated and lived as the Gift of the Father. I am filled with Hope based in Faith and expressed as Love. Just out of curiosity, how are we different from the seemingly ageless trees? No P, because there is God, we have no need of magic and Jesus was no magician. My mind is so open that I realize that we have no need for miracles since that is the in-breaking of the divine in the human - but it is not necessary for God to 'break-in' where he already IS. Or as Paul put it, 'we have our being in God.' We are the miracle who is called to take the 'mud' of humanity (Kazantzakis) and mold it to the image of God and we do this as we are in 'relation' with/to God.

Jenson, dear fellow since this appears to be of particular interest to you, why don't you start us off with your own exhaustive bullet points and your successes and failures. I will wait on your detailed response,

I agree with Paul that Jenson needs to tread more respectfully and I speak as one who does take Jesus and the Bible seriously - if not literally and the word of God.

Exactly on point. And it is perfectly valid to question the instruction 'after the fact' - to assess its legality, necessity and morality.

I found it, I found it! After hours of combing through the literature, I found the famous trumpster statement that he went to St. John's to deliver. Wait for it, wait for it.............here it comes: "It's a Bible." My god the power of that statement along with his terrific delivery - was there a teleprompter??

I do read the posts, don't get testy. You wrote "Now you have Trump going for a stroll when in fact he went there to make a statement against the backdrop of damage to a historical church in DC the night before which many non-vocal people support as do i. Just my 2 bobs worth." And you even included you supported it and that it was your 2 bobs worth. So...........the quote??

What was that statement? Do you have a quote? It was a photo-op.

No before the curfew ended and when the police moved, there were still peaceful, confused protestors. They did not leave with the order, the tape makes clear that many didn't hear or understand the order. The cops moved on everyone, they did not discriminate (they even when after a reporting team) and peaceful protestors were included. However this is a white experience, it seems, if we listen to black men and women, that this route is not truly open to them or effective. Given your research, it might indeed be that he was looking to make a statement and perhaps even be arrested as part of that statement. Whether he was or was not, "look at the guy" - how simple would it have been to stop him, put cuffs on him and 'walk him to the back?' Regardless, the guy didn't deserve or need to be pushed, left there bleeding (and he was left, the one cop couldn't be left to assist - the guy was bleeding from the head!) from the head and taken to the hospital. Please. we should be talking about cops as responsible members of society, with exceptional judgement - not goons knocking old guys to the ground. They cops were rightly charged and if the others didn't get it, they were right to resign. I would like to see the other video as it might restore some humanity to this debacle. Link? I have no problem believing your research on the man and I don't have to think him a saint to still be sicken by the actions of the cops and "to say it is wrong." There is no partisan cause: it happened, it didn't have to whether the guy was sinner or saint. The pictures I saw show the guy pushed, stumbling and on his back - regardless of archive photos, the current one is the issue. Joseph - these are two separate issues about Floyd - bottom line it was police improper actions that directly caused his death. My god, weren't these cops taught how to deal with people who are high on drugs? Most of us are largely responsible for ourselves but others for a variety of reasons are not able to assume such responsibility and direct their lives. Was Floyd an addict, which would further complicate his ability to assume responsibility? That is the entire concern of the black community, even when they are not being unlawful, they are stopped, harassed, abused, etc. They don't invite the drama - the drama, harm and pain are brought to them, oftentimes for no valid lawful reason. And if they are breaking the law, simply consider how they are treated compared to most white men and women. Do you know what is meant by defund? Joseph, some of us don't have to be convinced: we already see injustice, we see racism, we see cruelty, we see the deaths and, even though we will never fully understand what it means to be black in America, we see the rightness and the need for the kinds of actions flowing from Floyd's murder and, thanks God, many people of all colors and ages do also.............. and have joined. Much could actually be solved overnight: no chokeholds, instituting more demanding hiring guidelines, instituting better vetting of candidates, no immunity, strict rules for stopping and detaining people who are immediately under suspicion because they are black, beginning to rid departments of those who can't change (those who don't, won't or can't assume responsibility for their lives and the lives of all others) and so much more. Some of it doesn't take time and regardless the time is long past. That why Floyd's death has brought the country to this moment.

Still, big strong, burly cops need to respect they are dealing with human beings and recognize that a lone. old guy in their midst can be dealt with very effectively without bouncing him on the street. It wasn't the Alamo or Custer's Last Stand, it was an old guy. I hope you at least agree and see why the trumpster got such pushback: an antifa provacateur????