PaulS

Lighting my wood-fired oven in anticipation of slow roasting a leg of lamb, to have with friends over tonight. Does life get any better? - A lovely 30c degrees, sunny, swimming in the pool, family, friends and frivolity. I LOVE the weekend!

Welcome Eldred, I hope you enjoy your time here reading and contributing. Cheers Paul

Good luck!

There is an element of that, but really it's not so much a struggle that I personally lose much sleep over, rather I am trying to understand how the lack of doing all one can ties in with Christianity and the message of Jesus, who Christians consider the exemplar of life itself. I guess I'm sort of trying Christianity on for size but wondering about the cut of the suit.

Thanks Joseph. I think I understand your point - although I might be beating myself up about needing to do more, the fact that I'm not doing more is because at present I can't, that's exactly why I'm not doing more. Perhaps there's a distinction though between not being able to do more, and maybe telling ourselves there's not much more we can do, when in fact there is?

Now don't try to hide behind any flimsy excuses, George! Thanks Paul

Thanks for you honesty,George. Are you able to pinpoint why you don't do more when you recognise that you probably could and should?

I do, but I guess that's why I'm questioning - the power or opportunity to do so much more, but most of us don't. More particularly I am trying to understand why those who espouse Jesus as their ultimate example of how to live their life, how to do God's will, how to be most in touch with God, aren't out there busting their butts to help the needy and oppressed. So far it doesn't answer it for me to say do a little and be comfortable with that.

Oskar Schindler: Power is when we have every justification to kill, and we don't. Amon Goeth: You think that's power? Oskar Schindler: That's what the Emperor said. A man steals something, he's brought in before the Emperor, he throws himself down on the ground. He begs for his life, he knows he's going to die. And the Emperor... pardons him. This worthless man, he lets him go. Amon Goeth: I think you are drunk. Oskar Schindler: That's power, Amon. That is power.

Thanks Jenell, I like those points. Paul

Jenell, You make some good points about the phrase "you have the poor with you always". But using it in the context I did was meant to sum up what I think Jesus thought about looking after the poor and oppressed as opposed to the specifics of that one single sentence. Jesus refers to the poor several times in a context I don't think simply means financially poor. I extrapolate from his sayings concerning "what you do for the least of these you do for me" as concern for the poor also. I know I used the example of dollars given, but I really didn't mean that to the exclusion of everything else. I am trying to understand other people's views about Jesus' message and meaning when, for instance, we take a holiday to Hawaii rather than to Ethiopia to volunteer to help the needy, when we go to a nice restaurant for a beautiful meal yet there is a hobo in the alley rummaging through the bin, when we live in a house that could finance 6 other houses instead, albeit they might be located in lower socio economic areas. These things seem like very real conundrums to me. How can one say they are living their life as the fullest expression of Jesus, yet not be doing absolutely everything humanly possible to improve the dire situation of so many others. Apathy is a word that comes to mind, although many would argue that is not the case. It's just that I don't see how it is not. (Strangely enough, I mean this in the kindest way, because I am in this category!).

I agree, George. All of us being poor serves no purpose. But if you truly do believe that is incumbent on us to do whatever we can to solve the problems, shouldn't that mean not living as comfortably as you do and spending more time/money helping? Please let me reiterate, than I am in that basket as much as anyone else, so I'm not blaming you, just trying to understand how others see this issue. I appreciate everyone participating and helping me with their thoughts.

I guess what strikes me Joseph, is that most of us simply don't do all we can in our sphere of influence. It is within your sphere of influence to give more, but you choose not to for certain reasons (again, no finger pointing, because I am exactly the same). I hope this isn't too dramatic, but what I am trying to express might be best summed up in the below hypothetical: "What do you mean 'the poor are always going to be with you'? You mean you had enough money to save my life, but felt that you shouldn't have to help by selling what you have been given?. And you talk about there being a God of love". It's very confusing to me.

Generally speaking Christians hold up Jesus as their example of how we should live, and that his message is the only thing that matters. For many, this is a genuine, heartfelt belief. They would believe they live their lives accordingly. Certainly most would say they strive towards it. How then do some Christians here see helping their fellow man fitting in this picture? What I mean to say is that Jesus preached compassion and empathy, and if I understand Him correctly, really we all should be doing everything humanly possible that we can to help others in need/distress/suffering injustice. So do you really, and if not, why not? Don't get me wrong - this is not piety speaking and I truly believe that one in a glass house should not cast stones. But what I am struggling with is that around the world poverty, injustice, malnutrition, is killig people by the millions annually. According to the U.N., some 18,000 children die every day because of hunger and malnutrition and 850 million people go to bed every night with empty stomachs. Now I know government, wars etc play a big part in this, but how can anybody say they are trying to bring God's Kingdom into the world, when they live in a nice house, drive a nice car, have all the simple luxuries we all take for granted, go on holidays, etc, whilst so many people are going without and suffering such pain and misery? Is it not hypocritical? I mean Jesus gave his LIFE for what he believed, we're not even prepared to sell our flash car or go without a microwave oven! Like I said, I am one of those that has a house, reasonable car, plenty of simple luxuries. I do sponsor a couple of World Vision kids and contribute to other worthwhile charities such as Save the Children, but that amounts to sweet nothing against my life really. Shouldn't I sell my $40,000 car and buy a $5,000 one and donate the rest to save starving people? How can I live in my nice house whilst some people live in mud huts and live off dirt? Jesus didn't own property or store up material possessions, but lived a life as a travelling teacher. If helping bring in the Kingdom of God meant paying off a mortgage, sending kids to a private school, owning a nice car, then Jesus seems to have set the wrong example. How do we justify our lives in the face of the starving and dying millions around the world? Your thoughts?

It's the series, Jenell: The clan of the cave bear The valley of horses The mammoth hunters The plains of passage The shelters of stone The land of painted caves

I like didactic novels and would love to re-read River God by Wilbur Smith and the Jean Auel Earth's Children series.

I think it is alot like your 4th of July, which I was there for in about 1990. Technically the event is the commemoration of the first British ship arriving in Sydney and proclaiming Australia as theirs. This doesn't sit well with some indigenous Australians and for a time there activsts called it Invasion Day. For most though, the focus of the day is celebrating our Australian-ness, including our indigenous and multi-cultural heritage. We are still dealing with our history, but on this day I think we can all put down our weapons and just enjoy the fact that right now, we do all live together here in Oz, and people from a wide range of cultures have contributed to who we are today. We had a great day, which unfortunately I am paying for now

Today I am celebrating 'Australia Day'. Our country has a public holiday day which is general promoted as a day of national pride celebrated by swimming (I'm in my pool - it's 41 degrees celsius today), having some snaggers and lamb on the barbie (three additonal families of friends here today), and crackin' a few cold tinnies (well I'm less patriotic in this area as I prefer mexican Corona). However thoughts must go out to some aussies who are experiencing floods and storms today, which of course wouldn't be so relaxing. Cheers.

Bill, I look forward to your return and future posts. I enjoy reading your views and appreciate your openess and willingness to discuss issues. Cheers Paul

Tonight I am doing a lot of catching up from two weeks away from this forum!

Today I am preparing for tomorrow's trip to Tasmania, with my wife and kids, for two whole weeks. We and another family with same aged kids are hiring two mobile homes and driving wherever the wind takes us. I am going to try and stay away from computers for the duration, so in advance I wish you all well and look forward to catching up on the forum when I return. Cheers Paul

Phil, I'm sorry, I don't have any proper answers for you. I'm not a 'christian' myself and have nothing to do with religion really, other than read books and participate in this forum. From what I see though, I do think Spong is on the right track when he says christianity must change or die - I do see it as dying out, albeit slowly, to the old conservative way of thinking and moving more toward a position or line of thought, more along the lines of progressive christianity. I think the prolific websites and forums that are shedding light on the old ways of thinking and of understanding the bible in a less literal way, are really making a difference to christians around the world. However I must admit my only gauge is what appears on the internet, but there does seem to be a lot more information and encouragement on there concerning a less fundamental and literal way of interpreting christianity. I don't know who took over from Spong or what the status may be of the Episcopalian church. I do hope that somebody like Spong continues his work. I too am a Spong fan though, and enjoy reading his books and newsletter.

Thanks Jenell, will do. Joseph - You're very close to the mark when you suspect I seek experience of God rather than words or ideas. I find it a funny situation to be in (although I'm not laughing alot!) - wondering if there is 'a' God, wondering if there is a way to experience this God, but then also wondering if I do have said experience will it be genuine or is it something psychological brought on by all this God-talk and wondering about God? Kinda catch 22 really. I am encouraged by a number of people that I am 'on the right path' and that 'things' will come in due course, so in the meantime I'm happy to read, poke around, ask questions, contemplate. I suspect my desire to know the 'right' answer has more to do with my fundamental upbringing and whilst I can shake that most of the time, it pops into my mind from time to time. Myron - I can appreciate that definition. Thanks for sharing it with me. Mike - I have entertained what I think you're explaining (and thanks for doing so) where I do wonder if God is us - the whole world, every rock, mineral, plant, animal, person, feeling, emotion, thought. That certainly makes more sense to me than my traditional understanding of a master controller sitting 'out there' somewhere. Whilst it is probably so cliche to say it is a 'mystery', I guess for me that is most accurate. Thanks again for your view.

Apologies in advance if I should have posted this in another category. I guess this is not so much a discussion thread about Bishop Spong's newsletter per se, but it is initiated by a sentence from his latest newsletter that I particularly identify with: "Since the church as they experienced it seemed to have no other idea of God, they wanted no part of religion." Spong was referring to the closed-mindedness (my words) of fundamental, literalist churches and how a number of christians find the God espoused in those churches to be 'too small' for the world they live in. I guess like so many members here, this was the situation I found myself in when at 18 years of age, I was unleashed onto the big bad world of adulthood and employment, where for the first time I became seriously exposed to relationships with respectable adults outside of the confines of my fundamental, literalist church family. These relationships and experiences in life led to me simply rejecting the God of the bible I had grown up believing in. I did not consider much of an alternative. I pretty much threw the baby out with the bathwater. 25 years on and I have been so distanced from religion and God that I genuinely question whether God exists at all. To me, it feels like God doesn't exist. But then there's a little niggle that makes me asks if I might me missing something. Admittedly, part of it still might be the fear that "He' is waiting for me on the other side and I am trying to convince myself that this is nonsense, but a part of it also is that I do genuinely question whether there is something spiritual to our world. So I find myself here, possibly 'hoping' that I'll come across some magic answer, but moreso simply acknowledging that maybe there is something that I've missed and so I'll see what others have to say about the matter and ask them about their experiences. So I wonder if anyone would be prepared to sum up in only a few sentences, just what they think God is and why do they think God is real? I realise such a subject matter could go on and on, but I'm asking you not to try and convince me, but if you would be preapred to put out there as succinctly as possible, just what & why you think about God.

Ignorant, challenged, guilt, anger, loneliness, reconstructing, curious, wishful. Sorry, that's 8.