What is your concept/understanding of 'soul'?

[David Sundaram]

In the spirit of the First of the 8 Points, stated here as a way of 'framing' PC: By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who ... believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life -

I would like to ask/invite and engage in conversation with readers of this who feel spiritually moved to contemplate, share and explore what they think the word 'soul' means in the context of Jesus's parable "And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee:  then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." (Luke, Ch.12)

Edited December 15, 2022 by David Sundaram
clarification

[David Sundaram]

Speaking of 'soul'-configurations. I wonder if folks here are aware of the kinds of 'soul'-configiruations or 'soul;-values that this forum has, under the 'name' of Christ-ian inclusiveness, become a 'host' to and 'cover' for?

Quoting a very recent post in the "You might be a Humanist if ... " thread:

10 hours ago, tariki said:

I have even been called the "antichrist"

Romansh's response:

I knew there was something I liked about you.

-------

Tariki, I know to be a joker, who often 'plays' at being 'naughty'. Talk about things getting 'co-opted'!

Possible explanation: Erosion of values as 'good' folks become worn down and, so, withdraw - same as happening in society-at-large, maybe.
 

Edited December 15, 2022 by David Sundaram

[PaulS]

7 hours ago, David Sundaram said:

In the spirit of the First of the 8 Points, stated here as a way of 'framing' PC: By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who ... believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life -

I would like to ask/invite and engage in conversation with readers of this who feel spiritually moved to contemplate, share and explore what they think the word 'soul' means in the context of Jesus's parable "And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee:  then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." (Luke, Ch.12)

Ah yes, that old chestnut - "following the teachings of Jesus".  Of course, exactly 'what' the teachings of Jesus are are extremely open to interpretation.  Primarily because most of what was written concerning Jesus didn't get written until decades and decades after his death (Luke around 85CE), and have been altered/amended/added to over centuries, and our oldest 'copies' of any original text of Luke are more than 150 years old.  So personally, I am highly skeptical about lots of quotes attributed to Jesus, particularly from the later and personally removed sources such as Luke - somebody who most likely never even met Jesus.

My personal approach to following the path of Jesus and how I understand that can lead to awareness and experience of the sacred and oneness and unity of all life, is a very humanist approach to me, and I think simply to trying to love one another and all that goes with that, is more than enough for me.  But obviously it can be a challenge.

But to your quoted parable - I don't particularly think Jesus said it.  Jewish thought in the centuries preceding Jesus didn't promote a soul going to heaven and others to suffering, but rather ALL souls going to a place called Sheol - a shady sort of underworld where souls just milled about bumping into walls.  As Jesus was very much a Jew, I suspect he probably voted along the same party lines, but perhaps was experiencing some of the changes Hellenic thought were bringing to Israel.  As religious thought changed and the Hellenic influence of Hell crept into Israel, later religious thought started entertaining the idea of some souls being 'rewarded' and others being 'punished' for all of eternity (previously not Jewish thought).  I think Jesus expected some souls (and by that I mean people in their physical body) to either rise again or stay on in this earthly life and enjoy the Kingdom of God after it came in its full extent, whilst other souls were destroyed.  But that's just me.

Perhaps the parable is a religous-ised version of something Jesus actually said around people not being greedy and hogging things to themselves, but sharing them with the community, as Jesus seemed to think the Kingdom of God would soon be arriving on earth in its fullest expression (in his followers' lifetimes) hence no need for them to store up wealth as all would be shared in God's Kingdom.  He seemed to preach that elsewhere too.

[PaulS]

3 hours ago, David Sundaram said:

Possible explanation: Erosion of values as 'good' folks become worn down and, so, withdraw - same as happening in society-at-large, maybe.

I see no erosion of any true value, other than religious folk perhaps being 'offended' (another issue at large these days) because somebody jokes about something that their religion tells them they shouldn't.

[David Sundaram]

39 minutes ago, PaulS said:

I see no erosion of any true value, other than religious folk perhaps being 'offended' (another issue at large these days) because somebody jokes about something that their religion tells them they shouldn't.

I suppose that you 'see' 'Satan worship' similarly - as just another non-nonformist 'joke'.

[PaulS]

32 minutes ago, David Sundaram said:

I suppose that you 'see' 'Satan worship' similarly - as just another non-nonformist 'joke'.

If it was in the context of humour, quite likely I would. But just saying the words 'Satan Worship' isn't particularly rib tickling.

Have you heard the one about the dyslexic Satan worshipper?  He sold his soul to Santa!

 

[David Sundaram]

Here's my concept/idea pertaining to what I image-in to the 'reality' of 'soul' (it related to my concept/idea of what I image-in the word 'God' references, of course)"

EVERYbody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis­usage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within EACH and EVERYONE.

To clarify: The 'soul' is non-'physical', It is not one's 'body' for 'form', but rather one's living 'mind'-n-'spirit' constellation which exists in a non-material dimensions, in a physical 'realm' (i.e. REALm ), It is this (living) constellation, of configuration, which continues to live on after one;s 'body' 'dies', i.e. after one's 'form' dis-integrates.

It is this aspect of our 'being' that (I think-n-believe) is capable of actualizing the 'eternal Life' state that Jesus spoke of. IT is one's (ongoing) Presence, as referenced in The Bhagavad Gita , the most widely known and loved Hindu scripture.

"I will speak to thee now of that great Truth which man ought to know, since by its means he will win immortal bliss – that which is without beginning, the Eternal Spirit which dwells in Me, neither with form, nor yet without it.
Everywhere are Its hands and Its feet; everywhere It has eyes that see, heads that think and mouths that speak; everywhere It listens; It dwells in all the worlds; It envelops them all.
Beyond the senses, It yet shines through every sense perception. Bound to nothing, It yet sustains everything. Unaffected by the Qualities, It still enjoys them all.
It is within all beings, yet outside; motionless yet moving; too subtle to be perceived; far away yet always near.
In all beings undivided, yet living in division, It is the upholder of all, Creator and Destroyer alike;
It is the Light of lights, beyond the reach of darkness; the Wisdom, the only thing that is worth knowing or that wisdom can teach; the Presence in the hearts of all."

Of course, the Quality of the Life-experience of (christ-like) 'Creators' is on one side of a continuum or spectrum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shades' of Love and/or Light) and the Quality of the experience of (satanic) 'Destroyers' is on the other of said spectral continuum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shade of Hate and/or Darkness.

The above is, obviously, just an 'abstract' generalization. I hope readers can, based on the own experiences to date, make 'sense' the range of meanings it 'contains'.

According to Jesus, one may possibly 'lose' one's 'soul; in that it may cease to 'live'. But that is another essay for another time.

Edited December 15, 2022 by David Sundaram

[David Sundaram]

2 hours ago, David Sundaram said:

Of course, the Quality of the Life-experience of (christ-like) 'Creators' is on one side of a continuum or spectrum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shades' of Love and/or Light) and the Quality of the experience of (satanic) 'Destroyers' is on the other side of said spectral continuum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shade of Hate and/or Darkness.

At certain times in history, when both 'sides' of Life's expression become 'intense', (my ;sense' is that we are close to such point a now), the 'gulf' between them becomes too great for even the best Love and Light to bridge - as portrayed in 'story' form in: Luke Ch.16

"20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:  moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:  the rich man also died, and was buried;  23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;  for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things:  but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:  so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;  neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.   27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren;  that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.   29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;  let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham:  but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.   31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

[tariki]

Ah ha! From tariki in therapy, to tariki the joker (though his humour be "sick"), and over on another forum its Telegram Sam who was "born to boogie". Do I lay down on a counch, enter BGT as a stand up comedian, or bop my way down the high street after leaving McDonalds?

The "soul". From reading a few posts here (and I must thank David for stirring up this rather dormant forum) my mind turned in its rather strange way to a comment made by C S Lewis who insisted that Jesus should not be seen as a "good man" or whatever. No, "Jesus came to die"! 

In my own way I agree with him. Beyond all the "teachings" and "sayings" is the eternal mythos of death and renewal (as per Joseph Campbell, who speaks of all these common themes and parallels across the whole cultural spectrum of humanity) Before Jesus, there were more that 15 crucified saviours. Of course, "Jesus was the real one in time/space history", the others merely the work of the devil, who seeks to corrupt and decieve.........etc etc etc etc ad nauseam. Yet there are many books now making a strong case that Jesus never existed at all - but let us not go there. Back to the "eternal theme" of death and renewal, found right across the spectrum of humanity. 

This is really the theme of Wei Wu Wei's Harlequinade, from which came the "divest yourself of your garments" saying found in the Gospel of Thomas. (The whole "Halequinade" is readily found on the internet)

It may seem a jump, but associated with this is the way some modern Christian theologians seek to speak of new Christologies, making the point that the "eternal mythos" in its Hebrew home then evolved within the context of Greek philosophy/thought. That Christianity is basically a product of such. They seek to speculate just how the mythos (or the event itself of the death and resurrection of Jesus) might have flowered in a Mahayana context of thought. A bit of googling will reveal "A Mahayana Christology" if anyone is interested. 

Myself, I stagger on. Though chastised for making jokes I am basically unrepentant. I think of Merton writing in his Journal as he read a passage from Irenaeus (A passage that I have said before here somewhere  can relate to my understanding and experience of the Pure Land notion of "being made to become so (of itself) without/beyond the calculation of the devotee, where "no working is true working" - Japanese hakarai)

Merton read:- If you are the work of God wait patiently for the hand of your artist who makes all things at an opportune time........Give to Him a pure and supple heart and watch over the form which the artist shapes in you........lest, in hardness, you lose the traces of his fingers......

Merton comments......

The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......

I am serious about this. I do not joke about it. (In fact being serious about it allows me to joke about much that others consider serious, which I see as trivialities) I do keep a close watch on my mind/heart for any evidence of hardness, and often find, but always give thanks for the pure gift of "softness" that I know I can never "earn" from my own poor efforts.

Like the common mythos of death and renewal, the "encounter with Christ" (the Universal Christ, the Dharma, the Tao etc etc etc) is found across the whole spectrum of humanity, and is not the possession of anyone or any creed. My worldview, my faith, sees reality itself as a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. Or as another has said......"the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality. " Others may mock such a faith. For me it is the Reality in which I live and move and have my being. 

 

[tariki]

 

Two links, to "The Harlequinade", and to "A Mahayana Christology" for anyone interested.

 

http://weiwuwei.mysite.com/aai.html

 

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/keenan.htm

[John Hunt]

17 hours ago, PaulS said:

If it was in the context of humour, quite likely I would. But just saying the words 'Satan Worship' isn't particularly rib tickling.

Have you heard the one about the dyslexic Satan worshipper?  He sold his soul to Santa!

 

Maybe Santa was consciously constructed as an anagram of Satan. After all, he's old, portly, with air transport, vast amounts of stuff, the embodiment of consumerism. Jesus was young, ascetic, told his followers to give everything way, particularly stuff they didn't need, and walked everywhere.

[David Sundaram]

6 hours ago, tariki said:

Ah ha! From tariki in therapy, to tariki the joker (though his humour be "sick")

and over on another forum its Telegram Sam who was "born to boogie". Do I lay down on a counch, enter BGT as a stand up comedian, or bop my way down the high street after leaving McDonalds?

What I say is just feedback relaying what things look and feel like to me: in my view, based on how they 'land' on me, your 'jokes' are 'sick' (ones).

I advocate, and in my first (think) response to you, I suggested/offered Jesus's 'way' (which I am still just a student- apprentice of) a a way of going 'beyond' needing or depending on 'therapy'. You rejected engaging with me with such possibility in mind.

This is just a quick response. Tariki. I haven't read the rest of your post. I;ll get back to it/you.

P.S. If you ever do decide to 'engage' with what I am about, please know that it isn't a simple/slick "Just believe 'Jesus is the Lord' kind of process". It involves much more than applying the Merton 'formula' for one thing.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by David Sundaram

[David Sundaram]

2 hours ago, John Hunt said:

Maybe Santa was consciously constructed as an anagram of Satan. After all, he's old, portly, with air transport, vast amounts of stuff, the embodiment of consumerism. Jesus was young, ascetic, told his followers to give everything way, particularly stuff they didn't need, and walked everywhere.

My mind 'grooves' with the wisdom conveyed by such thought, but I think 'Santa' is a transliteration of the word 'Saint', someone who is self-lessly devoted to 'serving' others. in this case by 'giving' anyone/everyone their 'due'. The 'materialism' of 'Christ'mas is just an "As above (in provide-ential Spirit), so below (in Matter)" phenom, I think. The trouble is that whereas 'spirit' is limitless, the limitations of 'matter' requires that it be 'wisely' managed if there is to be a 'heavenly' result.

Satan is the epitome of egotistical 'me'-first 'self'ishness. Santa, at worst, may be thought of as being overly generous toward 'kids', as many parents, in 'generous' extension of 'self'ishness, still tend to be.

Edited December 16, 2022 by David Sundaram

[David Sundaram]

9 hours ago, tariki said:

The "soul". From reading a few posts here (and I must thank David for stirring up this rather dormant forum) my mind turned in its rather strange way to a comment made by C S Lewis who insisted that Jesus should not be seen as a "good man" or whatever. No, "Jesus came to die"! 

In my own way I agree with him. Beyond all the "teachings" and "sayings" is the eternal mythos of death and renewal (as per Joseph Campbell, who speaks of all these common themes and parallels across the whole cultural spectrum of humanity) Before Jesus, there were more that 15 crucified saviours. Of course, "Jesus was the real one in time/space history", the others merely the work of the devil, who seeks to corrupt and decieve.........etc etc etc etc ad nauseam. Yet there are many books now making a strong case that Jesus never existed at all - but let us not go there. Back to the "eternal theme" of death and renewal, found right across the spectrum of humanity. 

This is really the theme of Wei Wu Wei's Harlequinade, from which came the "divest yourself of your garments" saying found in the Gospel of Thomas. (The whole "Halequinade" is readily found on the internet)

It may seem a jump, but associated with this is the way some modern Christian theologians seek to speak of new Christologies, making the point that the "eternal mythos" in its Hebrew home then evolved within the context of Greek philosophy/thought. That Christianity is basically a product of such. They seek to speculate just how the mythos (or the event itself of the death and resurrection of Jesus) might have flowered in a Mahayana context of thought. A bit of googling will reveal "A Mahayana Christology" if anyone is interested. 

Myself, I stagger on. Though chastised for making jokes I am basically unrepentant. I think of Merton writing in his Journal as he read a passage from Irenaeus (A passage that I have said before here somewhere  can relate to my understanding and experience of the Pure Land notion of "being made to become so (of itself) without/beyond the calculation of the devotee, where "no working is true working" - Japanese hakarai)

Merton read:- If you are the work of God wait patiently for the hand of your artist who makes all things at an opportune time........Give to Him a pure and supple heart and watch over the form which the artist shapes in you........lest, in hardness, you lose the traces of his fingers......

Merton comments......

The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......

I am serious about this. I do not joke about it. (In fact being serious about it allows me to joke about much that others consider serious, which I see as trivialities) I do keep a close watch on my mind/heart for any evidence of hardness, and often find, but always give thanks for the pure gift of "softness" that I know I can never "earn" from my own poor efforts.

Like the common mythos of death and renewal, the "encounter with Christ" (the Universal Christ, the Dharma, the Tao etc etc etc) is found across the whole spectrum of humanity, and is not the possession of anyone or any creed. My worldview, my faith, sees reality itself as a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. Or as another has said......"the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality. " Others may mock such a faith. For me it is the Reality in which I live and move and have my being.

Hello tariiki - I read the rest of your post. I have a very different e-motional 'leaning' than you do - the idea that Jesus "came to die" , for example, strikes me a being a 'ridiculous' kind of 'mysticism' which is quite contrary to what I think of a the imperative of Life. Sure, he was willing to 'give' his personal Life to serve Life's greater cause. But his personal statement, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" resonates as expressing the truth to a greater degree. We all 'Came to die' in that our souls chose to be (re)incarnationally embodied, in my view that is.

At this point, given your tendency to embrace (what I regard as being) wildly irrational/esoteric statements, I doubt we will find common ground to meet on.

I do ask and wish that you consider actually relating to issues related to the concept of 'soul' that I have raised and talked about in this thread. Maybe such relationality is beyond your capacity, but maybe you could choose to engage so (as invited to) - I have no way of knowing.

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, David Sundaram said:

I do ask and wish that you consider actually relating to issues related to the concept of 'soul' that I have raised and talked about in this thread. Maybe such relationality is beyond your capacity, but maybe you could choose to engage so (as invited to) - I have no way of knowing.

It shouldn't be lost on people that more has been said about 'soul' in a few posts here than is ever attributed to Jesus teaching or talking on the matter!

David - Belittling others who challenge your point of view or otherwise answer you in a manner that you don't find satisfactory, is not aligned with Member Expectations here.  Some tolerance was initially granted - no more will be offered. You will be suspended from this Forum if I see this behaviour repeated.

[David Sundaram]

22 minutes ago, PaulS said:

It shouldn't be lost on people that more has been said about 'soul' in a few posts here than is ever attributed to Jesus teaching or talking on the matter!

David - Belittling others who challenge your point of view or otherwise answer you in a manner that you don't find satisfactory, is not aligned with Member Expectations here.  Some tolerance was initially granted - no more will be offered. You will be suspended from this Forum if I see this behaviour repeated.

Yes, Paul, my aim/goal was/is to amplify understanding of Jesus's teaching. More words than he used was necessary.

IMO, I did not 'belittle' Tariki's point of view. I said/implied that the kind of 'mysticism' expressed by his words struck me as being 'absurd', meaning it did not make 'sense' to me - such statement could also be interpreted/understood to mean that I was too dumb to 'grok' it.

Do you have a personal or role-as-moderator objection to my talking about 'soul' at greater length than has ever been attributed to Jesus teaching or talking on the matter?  If so, please amplify.

Edited December 16, 2022 by David Sundaram

[PaulS]

3 minutes ago, David Sundaram said:

Yes, Paul, my aim/goal was/is to amplify understanding of Jesus's teaching. I am glad that wasn't 'lost' on you.

I did not 'belittle' Tariki's point of view. I said/implied that the kind of 'mysticism' expressed by his words struck me as being 'absurd', meaning it did not make 'sense' to me - such a statement could also be interpreted/understood to me that I was too dumb to 'grok' it of you (anyone) wanted to.

 

David, this isn't my first rodeo so please don't waste your time trying to gaslight me and others about what you are really typing.  Please take a week off from here to consider your actions and if you choose to return, please do so in a less antagonistic manner.

[PaulS]

5 hours ago, John Hunt said:

Maybe Santa was consciously constructed as an anagram of Satan. After all, he's old, portly, with air transport, vast amounts of stuff, the embodiment of consumerism. Jesus was young, ascetic, told his followers to give everything way, particularly stuff they didn't need, and walked everywhere.

Apparently Jesus used air transport towards the end of his stay on Earth

[tariki]

11 hours ago, David Sundaram said:

I do ask and wish that you consider actually relating to issues related to the concept of 'soul' that I have raised and talked about in this thread. Maybe such relationality is beyond your capacity, but maybe you could choose to engage so (as invited to) - I have no way of knowing.

I am. Really. That you choose to call irrational/esoteric statements are simply common parlance among many modern people (even Christians) genuinely interested in finding meaning in this sometimes sad, mad world where all the old signposts have gone. 

I think I explained clearly that Jesus "coming to die" related simply to the worldwide common theme of dying to self, thus in Christian speak:-

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Thank you.

 

[tariki]

Just another word or two David. As "Telegram Sam" ( "Born to Boogie" ) on another forum I will be found often far less "esoteric". Possibly I am a bit of a chameleon. 

Again, you are invited to engage on the threads here in the "Other Wisdom Traditions". Speaking for myself, you could say what you like there (in spite of the fact that I might still be the moderator of that section.......😁)

All the best

[John Hunt]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:13 PM, PaulS said:

Apparently Jesus used air transport towards the end of his stay on Earth

I forgot that.

Assuming he managed to accelerate to the speed of light, he's probably somewhere around Alpha Centaurus by now. Only about 50 billion trillion miles to go....

[romansh]

6 hours ago, John Hunt said:

Assuming he managed to accelerate to the speed of light

And he has gained infinite mass and sucked up all the energy and then some.

[John Hunt]

3 hours ago, romansh said:

And he has gained infinite mass and sucked up all the energy and then some.

I hadn't even thought that far ahead. But I guess it explains why he didn't return in the lifetimes of his disciples (Matthew 16:27-28; Luke 9:27; 21:32), he's still travelling.

[David Sundaram]

On 12/17/2022 at 12:36 AM, tariki said:

Just another word or two David. As "Telegram Sam" ( "Born to Boogie" ) on another forum I will be found often far less "esoteric". Possibly I am a bit of a chameleon. 

Again, you are invited to engage on the threads here in the "Other Wisdom Traditions". Speaking for myself, you could say what you like there (in spite of the fact that I might still be the moderator of that section.......😁)

All the best

I appreciate the engagement and the invitation. tariki. I hope you appreciate the fact that I think-and-so-opinionated that your idea of of "coming to die" reflects a gross, to the point of being absurd in my view,  misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Jesus's words and actions.

Given that you did not deign to respond to quote about Jesus saying he 'came' here so that others could/would have more 'abundant' Life, but simply further rationalized' your expressed positionality, I think it would be a waste of my energy to attempt to communicate further with you or your cohorts here.

"In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them." (Matthew 6)

I am accessible via email and/or phone should anyone else here think/feel they have something to gain by engaging in conversation with me - I can be reached via the 'message' feature here in that case to set that up. I suggest anyone interested peruse my website to get a sense of what I am about first, however.

Edited December 28, 2022 by David Sundaram
clarification

[tariki]

5 hours ago, David Sundaram said:

I appreciate the engagement and the invitation. tariki. I hope you appreciate the fact that I think-and-so-opinionated that your idea of of "coming to die" reflects a gross, to the point of being absurd in my view,  misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Jesus's words and actions.

Given that you did not deign to respond to quote about Jesus saying he 'came' here so that others could/would have more 'abundant' Life, but simply further rationalized' your expressed positionality, I think it would be a waste of my energy to attempt to communicate further with you or your cohorts here.

"In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them." (Matthew 6)

I am accessible via email and/or phone should anyone else here think/feel they have something to gain by engaging in conversation with me - I can be reached via the 'message' feature here in that case to set that up. I suggest anyone interested peruse my website to get a sense of what I am about first, however.

Sorry David, but I DID explain fully and comprehensively the context in which I agreed with the claim of C S Lewis that Jesus "came to die". As a precis, I sought to say that therefore, as 

a consequence, it was for the purpose that ALL should have life, and have it more abundantly. This simply by reason of His death, and not because of any human beings intellectual grasp of His sayings. Thus, many paths. 

Apparently you are seeking to insist that only via analysis and understanding of various "sayings" of Jesus can a human being find more abundant life, and not, as I would claim, via universal mythos, via infinite ways, means and paths in a Reality that is itself a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. 

I'm sorry you see my point of view/faith as "esoteric" and "irrational". 

Thank you.