David Sundaram

That's you self-reifyingly putting your words/ideas into my mouth. PROVING my POINT: Avoiding REALLY engaging with someone who understands/sees/thinks about things, in this case Jesus's widsom, in a way different than you do. Bye-Bye

I appreciate the engagement and the invitation. tariki. I hope you appreciate the fact that I think-and-so-opinionated that your idea of of "coming to die" reflects a gross, to the point of being absurd in my view, misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Jesus's words and actions. Given that you did not deign to respond to quote about Jesus saying he 'came' here so that others could/would have more 'abundant' Life, but simply further rationalized' your expressed positionality, I think it would be a waste of my energy to attempt to communicate further with you or your cohorts here. "In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them." (Matthew 6) I am accessible via email and/or phone should anyone else here think/feel they have something to gain by engaging in conversation with me - I can be reached via the 'message' feature here in that case to set that up. I suggest anyone interested peruse my website to get a sense of what I am about first, however.

Yes, Paul, my aim/goal was/is to amplify understanding of Jesus's teaching. More words than he used was necessary. IMO, I did not 'belittle' Tariki's point of view. I said/implied that the kind of 'mysticism' expressed by his words struck me as being 'absurd', meaning it did not make 'sense' to me - such statement could also be interpreted/understood to mean that I was too dumb to 'grok' it. Do you have a personal or role-as-moderator objection to my talking about 'soul' at greater length than has ever been attributed to Jesus teaching or talking on the matter? If so, please amplify.

Long time since anyone posted on this thread. Just thought I would add this for any passers by who might enjoy a trip down the alley of my self concept: Any and every soul’s developmental ‘journey’ merits ongoing introspective review and reevaluation and, when and where appropriate, the refine­ment – this is what conscious evolution is all about! – not just of the ‘content’ of what one personally thinks, feels, believes and does in relation to others and Life- at-Large, but also of the ‘significance’ one places on and so ‘ascribes’ to one’s self and other selves, in your case the very ‘self ’ that thinks, feels, believes and does so. To possibly help expedite such process, here’s a discussion of some often overlooked (because of ‘innocent’ ignorance) but just about as often (for personal expediency) swept under the rug details and issues which, when and as overlooked and/or ignored, often result in folks who don’t yet fully grok what actually happens when a soul transcends self hood by whole-mind-n-heart-edly acknowledging and embracing the fact that it and others are integral aspects of The Entity of Life’s (i.e. of Christ’s) Being-n-Doing being bamboozled by as well as bamboozling others. For one thing, one’s self hood doesn’t then just evaporate into insubstantial­ ity or dissolve into inconsequentiality as many have historically, apparently self-effacingly and seemingly humbly, for supposedly unself ish reasons, self-deludingly imagined and other-misleadingly proclaimed. Take the words of anyone who speaks, preaches, or acts in ways which imply that he or she (or his or her ‘kind’) is so self-abnegating as to therefore be especially holy and (so) especially worthy of devotion, reverence, obedience, generosity, etc. with a grain of salt. A posture of personal insignificance may indeed be adopted as a result of a person’s genuinely loving and enjoying and so wishing not to in any way detract from the glorious Magnificence and mind-boggling Grandeur of Life-at-Large, in contrast to which the gestalt of his or her present self as well as the gestalts of other selves may indeed appear – to him or her, that is – to be relatively unimportant. But obsequious, Cosmic Presence (or Persona) ‘adoring’ stances and corollary behaviors may also be consciously or unconsciously coat-tail rider ‘gain’ motivated, and sometimes even downright wolves-in-sheep’s-clothing predatory in relation to unwitting others! To put any self or other generated razzle-dazzle that may presently be interfering with your clearly seeing what’s really what in this regard into perspective, let me point to and emphasize the implications of the obvious fact that genuinely devoted husbands and wives – ‘lovers’ of all kinds, really! – recognize that their lives are far from being insignificant in relation to those they love and ‘espouse’. They live and act with consummate awareness of the fact, as well as experience and evince a certain degree of self-appreciation as a result of knowing, that their personal presence and relational engagement functionally complements and enriches their spouse’s lives in ways which they could not and would not be otherwise. This, even as they acknowledge and are deeply grateful for the fact that their own lives are also complemented and enriched in ways that they otherwise would not be by virtue of their having been ‘espoused’ (as a self ) themselves. Similarly, Cosmically ‘awakened’ souls continue to live and make choices as personally response-able, choice-implementing selves who are well worth every ‘bit’ of their 'salt’, albeit they do so so ‘sacrally’, without putting themselves on any kind of 'pedestal', knowing that they are vital components of Life’s Grand Being-n- Doing, in other words knowing that they are Love and Joy experiencing and expressing ‘buds’, ‘leaves ’, ‘flowers’ and potentially ‘seed’ bearing ‘fruit’ on ‘the Tree’ of Life Itself !

Hello tariiki - I read the rest of your post. I have a very different e-motional 'leaning' than you do - the idea that Jesus "came to die" , for example, strikes me a being a 'ridiculous' kind of 'mysticism' which is quite contrary to what I think of a the imperative of Life. Sure, he was willing to 'give' his personal Life to serve Life's greater cause. But his personal statement, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" resonates as expressing the truth to a greater degree. We all 'Came to die' in that our souls chose to be (re)incarnationally embodied, in my view that is. At this point, given your tendency to embrace (what I regard as being) wildly irrational/esoteric statements, I doubt we will find common ground to meet on. I do ask and wish that you consider actually relating to issues related to the concept of 'soul' that I have raised and talked about in this thread. Maybe such relationality is beyond your capacity, but maybe you could choose to engage so (as invited to) - I have no way of knowing.

My mind 'grooves' with the wisdom conveyed by such thought, but I think 'Santa' is a transliteration of the word 'Saint', someone who is self-lessly devoted to 'serving' others. in this case by 'giving' anyone/everyone their 'due'. The 'materialism' of 'Christ'mas is just an "As above (in provide-ential Spirit), so below (in Matter)" phenom, I think. The trouble is that whereas 'spirit' is limitless, the limitations of 'matter' requires that it be 'wisely' managed if there is to be a 'heavenly' result. Satan is the epitome of egotistical 'me'-first 'self'ishness. Santa, at worst, may be thought of as being overly generous toward 'kids', as many parents, in 'generous' extension of 'self'ishness, still tend to be.

What I say is just feedback relaying what things look and feel like to me: in my view, based on how they 'land' on me, your 'jokes' are 'sick' (ones). I advocate, and in my first (think) response to you, I suggested/offered Jesus's 'way' (which I am still just a student- apprentice of) a a way of going 'beyond' needing or depending on 'therapy'. You rejected engaging with me with such possibility in mind. This is just a quick response. Tariki. I haven't read the rest of your post. I;ll get back to it/you. P.S. If you ever do decide to 'engage' with what I am about, please know that it isn't a simple/slick "Just believe 'Jesus is the Lord' kind of process". It involves much more than applying the Merton 'formula' for one thing.

At certain times in history, when both 'sides' of Life's expression become 'intense', (my ;sense' is that we are close to such point a now), the 'gulf' between them becomes too great for even the best Love and Light to bridge - as portrayed in 'story' form in: Luke Ch.16 "20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Here's my concept/idea pertaining to what I image-in to the 'reality' of 'soul' (it related to my concept/idea of what I image-in the word 'God' references, of course)" EVERYbody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis­usage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within EACH and EVERYONE. To clarify: The 'soul' is non-'physical', It is not one's 'body' for 'form', but rather one's living 'mind'-n-'spirit' constellation which exists in a non-material dimensions, in a physical 'realm' (i.e. REALm ), It is this (living) constellation, of configuration, which continues to live on after one;s 'body' 'dies', i.e. after one's 'form' dis-integrates. It is this aspect of our 'being' that (I think-n-believe) is capable of actualizing the 'eternal Life' state that Jesus spoke of. IT is one's (ongoing) Presence, as referenced in The Bhagavad Gita , the most widely known and loved Hindu scripture. "I will speak to thee now of that great Truth which man ought to know, since by its means he will win immortal bliss – that which is without beginning, the Eternal Spirit which dwells in Me, neither with form, nor yet without it. Everywhere are Its hands and Its feet; everywhere It has eyes that see, heads that think and mouths that speak; everywhere It listens; It dwells in all the worlds; It envelops them all. Beyond the senses, It yet shines through every sense perception. Bound to nothing, It yet sustains everything. Unaffected by the Qualities, It still enjoys them all. It is within all beings, yet outside; motionless yet moving; too subtle to be perceived; far away yet always near. In all beings undivided, yet living in division, It is the upholder of all, Creator and Destroyer alike; It is the Light of lights, beyond the reach of darkness; the Wisdom, the only thing that is worth knowing or that wisdom can teach; the Presence in the hearts of all." Of course, the Quality of the Life-experience of (christ-like) 'Creators' is on one side of a continuum or spectrum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shades' of Love and/or Light) and the Quality of the experience of (satanic) 'Destroyers' is on the other of said spectral continuum (which some metaphorically speak of as being characterized by shade of Hate and/or Darkness. The above is, obviously, just an 'abstract' generalization. I hope readers can, based on the own experiences to date, make 'sense' the range of meanings it 'contains'. According to Jesus, one may possibly 'lose' one's 'soul; in that it may cease to 'live'. But that is another essay for another time.

I suppose that you 'see' 'Satan worship' similarly - as just another non-nonformist 'joke'.

Also obvious to me in the short time I've know you.

Speaking of 'soul'-configurations. I wonder if folks here are aware of the kinds of 'soul'-configiruations or 'soul;-values that this forum has, under the 'name' of Christ-ian inclusiveness, become a 'host' to and 'cover' for? Quoting a very recent post in the "You might be a Humanist if ... " thread: Romansh's response: I knew there was something I liked about you. ------- Tariki, I know to be a joker, who often 'plays' at being 'naughty'. Talk about things getting 'co-opted'! Possible explanation: Erosion of values as 'good' folks become worn down and, so, withdraw - same as happening in society-at-large, maybe.

In the spirit of the First of the 8 Points, stated here as a way of 'framing' PC: By calling ourselves progressive, we mean that we are Christians who ... believe that following the path and teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness and experience of the Sacred and the Oneness and Unity of all life - I would like to ask/invite and engage in conversation with readers of this who feel spiritually moved to contemplate, share and explore what they think the word 'soul' means in the context of Jesus's parable "And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." (Luke, Ch.12)

Having registered the stated attitudinality that you do not want to engage with my theses (I think/feel you have heard me), again, although this may now be unnecessary, I renew my request that you do not intrude on my efforts to engage (or 'cleanly' fail to) others here without distracting and usually (in the past, that is) 'impish' 'noise' being thrown the mix for 'fun'.

I resonate with and very much appreciate all that you relate here, tariki. High-Five, Soul Brother!