The Reality of Hell

[romansh]

On 11/29/2021 at 2:10 PM, theMadJW said:

Did God tell Adam if he rebelled he would be tortured forever?

It's a while since I have read Genesis, I don't actually recall Adam (and Eve) rebelling, but more being seduced by a snake. My interpretation of it is people have been seduced into thinking in terms of good and evil. My evidence? Genesis 3:22. So, that would make those that promulgate to think in terms of sin (doing good or evil) are the modern day snakes.

Just wondering what is your take on good and evil?

4 hours ago, theMadJW said:

Any questions on that?

Got any answers? Reading through your posts you do not seem to answer questions. Interesting.

Edited December 4, 2021 by romansh

[theMadJW]

All the answers on what Christ actually said has gotten me banned from evert "Bible" group online - so now I am asking QUESTIONS.

You don't see their treason , rebelling against the ONE simple test Jehovah gave them????

[PaulS]

2 hours ago, theMadJW said:

All the answers on what Christ actually said has gotten me banned from evert "Bible" group online - so now I am asking QUESTIONS.

You don't see their treason , rebelling against the ONE simple test Jehovah gave them????

I can assure you MadJW that opinions, expressed in good faith, don't get people banned here.  Rude behaviour, insults, and a lack of goodwill in discussions may do.  The forum is a two-way street - if you want to discuss topics it is a reasonable expectation that you will both ask and answer questions.

[John Hunt]

2 hours ago, theMadJW said:

You don't see their treason , rebelling against the ONE simple test Jehovah gave them????

What's the one simple test?

I can see why theMadJW might have been banned from online Christian forums, because there is no real reasoning here. Seems like she/he needs help. And as regards hell, I agree with an earlier post - the concept didn't exist in the OT (or an afterlife), other than a vague conception of a place where barely-existent shades of people (good or bad) are sent underground, to Sheol (60+ references). The most complete description of it is in 1 Samuel 28:3–25.

 

[theMadJW]

Denial.

[PaulS]

5 hours ago, theMadJW said:

You don't see their treason , rebelling against the ONE simple test Jehovah gave them????

Treason? Rebelling?  Is that how any parent views a child who disobeys - as a treasonous rebel?  Seems a bit harsh to me.

The Adam and Eve story to me is a simple myth, talked about for eons by tribes of people who had no better answers to the beginning and development of life.  Like all of us, they were mulling on things like why do people die, why is life so hard, why do we sometimes run out of food or get killed by an animal.  They came to the conclusion that God or the Gods weren't entirely happy with them (ancient Israel wasn't always monotheistic and wasn't so when the Adam and Eve story was penned either).  And when they did experience the good times (crops were bountiful, people were having babies, sickness wasn't happening much, etc) they believed they were aligned with God/the Gods and so were getting rewarded.  This reinforced their understanding that when the chips were down, it was because they weren't right with God/the Gods.  We don't have to think the same as them some 3000 years later.  

[theMadJW]

More denial.

[PaulS]

23 minutes ago, theMadJW said:

More denial.

And this is not conducive to discussion.  You either want to participate in a discussion, or you shouldn't post.  Please don't waste member's time here with glib, brief statements, unless you are prepared to at least discuss the points. Please show some courtesy to the individual starting the thread and to those participating, and talk to the thread content.

The original post was "Do you believe Christian teaching that Hell is a reality is an essential doctrine that is fundamental to Christian theology — that it is, indeed, a place of eternal suffering and punishment?  Or, could the existence of Hell be a reality that has a purpose other than punitive?"

If you care to discuss that, then terrific.  If you aren't prepared to, please don't post in this thread.

It's that easy really.

[romansh]

9 hours ago, theMadJW said:

You don't see their treason , rebelling against the ONE simple test Jehovah gave them????

Can you point me to the verse where Adam and Eve ... should they have existed ... rebel?

[theMadJW]

An old man wants to cut the hours he works at a used car lot he owns, so he hires YOU to manage it FOR him, 
giving you a wonderful benefit: you can drive any of the cars home at the end of the day- and even for 
holidays, vacations, etc...with the stipulation NOT to ever drive the '57 Chevy in the corner- or, he says, I will FIRE you!

What do you think he feels if he stops by early in the morning watching you drive that Chevy back onto the lot?

[PaulS]

5 minutes ago, theMadJW said:

An old man wants to cut the hours he works at a used car lot he owns, so he hires YOU to manage it FOR him, 
giving you a wonderful benefit: you can drive any of the cars home at the end of the day- and even for 
holidays, vacations, etc...with the stipulation NOT to ever drive the '57 Chevy in the corner- or, he says, I will FIRE you!

What do you think he feels if he stops by early in the morning watching you drive that Chevy back onto the lot?

Well, he might feel like he needs to sit me down and see how my jeans are fairing, and then he might say "Look, you have to go work somewhere else because if you don't you might find my Limo and then I'll really be in trouble because you'll live forever?"

[romansh]

4 hours ago, theMadJW said:

An old man wants to cut the hours he works at a used car lot he owns, so he hires YOU to manage it FOR him, 
giving you a wonderful benefit: you can drive any of the cars home at the end of the day- and even for 
holidays, vacations, etc...with the stipulation NOT to ever drive the '57 Chevy in the corner- or, he says, I will FIRE you!

What do you think he feels if he stops by early in the morning watching you drive that Chevy back onto the lot?

Well it is interesting that your metaphor for God seems to be equivalent to a used car salesman. The fact you anthropomorphize God's feelings show that the depth of your studies lack depth. I have been told by other believers that we cannot know the mind of God, but you seem to have a belief that you can reliably know what he might think with Chevies being driven counter to instruction.

tMJW ... I am still waiting to find out where in Genesis it says the Adam rebelled against God. I am not interested in your folksy analogies (at the moment). 

[theMadJW]

He was given a command, and he REBELLED against it.

BTW- How do you think 'sin' was introduced?

[romansh]

10 minutes ago, theMadJW said:

He was given a command, and he REBELLED against it.

BTW- How do you think 'sin' was introduced?

1) The verse please where it says he rebelled!

2) The actual sin is tasting the "knowledge of good and evil" ... not doing it.

[PaulS]

14 hours ago, theMadJW said:

He was given a command, and he REBELLED against it.

BTW- How do you think 'sin' was introduced?

The first biblical mention of sin is Gen 4 (sin is never mentioned in the Garden of Eden Story) and coincidentally, the first mention of sin provides no explanation of how sin was introduced.  Further, when God cites sin in Gen 4, God is telling Cain that he can 'master' it.  At this point in the bible there is no such thing as an eternal curse of 'sin' on mankind that needs an external saviour or separates mankind from God.  As we can read for ourselves in Gen 4 -  'sin' is masterable by man.

Your language seems influenced by Church teachings - where do you get the words 'rebelled' and 'command' from?  Genesis 3 only says that God 'said' this or that.  You don't have to put words in God's mouth - Genesis 3 is clear enough and God does not talk about commands or rebelling.  For those that believe God inspired the words in the bible, I find it strange that the words God so inspired, seem not to be considered 'adequate' enough and require 'beefing up' to make a point by those who think some point about ‘sin’ needs to be made (a point that wasn't even there in the original story).

[romansh]

15 hours ago, PaulS said:

Your language seems influenced by Church teachings - where do you get the words 'rebelled' and 'command' from?  Genesis 3 only says that God 'said' this or that.  You don't have to put words in God's mouth - Genesis 3 is clear enough and God does not talk about commands or rebelling.  For those that believe God inspired the words in the bible, I find it strange that the words God so inspired, seem not to be considered 'adequate' enough and require 'beefing up' to make a point by those who think some point about ‘sin’ needs to be made (a point that wasn't even there in the original story)

Paul ... that's "no fair". I was hoping tMJW could actually read the thing for himself and come up with this. This is now your idea and not his.

 

[theMadJW]

It's easy to tell your unbelievers- you no NOTHING about the account. Nor Bible words.

[PaulS]

15 hours ago, romansh said:

Paul ... that's "no fair". I was hoping tMJW could actually read the thing for himself and come up with this. This is now your idea and not his.

Sorry Rom, I just don't like to see any creature of the Lord suffer! :).  But seriously, I've been in MadJW's position before and appreciate how scary and difficult it can be to question what you have been told most of your life and have been convinced is the only way to see things.  I anticipated that MadJW already had his (or her) mind already set on how they understand things.  I was hoping to show how this whole concept about 'sin' is misrepresented by Churchianty (mainly with good intention, but still nonetheless misrepresented), and how this theology of sin and needing a saviour in Jesus only developed over a long period of time and didn't exist since the beginning of 'creation', as these Genesis stories clearly reveal.  

12 hours ago, theMadJW said:

It's easy to tell your unbelievers- you no NOTHING about the account. Nor Bible words.

Clearly we're not doing 'nothing' about the account - after all we are sharing & demonstrating to you what so many unbiased biblical scholars have shared over the last few centuries.  Bible words mean everything to Christianity - when it suits the narrative.  No Christian likes their theology being challenged, especially by the very book which they thought they understood.  But here you are given an opportunity to counter these points and put forward any logical argument you may have, but you choose not to.  Maybe ask yourself why you do that.

Please peruse some of the older threads here.  There is a wealth of information here about topics that I am pretty sure your research hasn't even touched upon (based on your understanding as expressed above).  There is nothing to be afraid of and as some would say, the truth will set you free.

Please do remember this is a general discussion section of the Forum.  So please, debate a point, provide logical argument (discussion), and ask questions by all means.  But simply responding to other people's evidence and argument simply by saying "Nope, you're wrong" is a time waster for everybody.  We would all like to see your counter argument to the points made above and questions asked, but you seem to not be prepared (or able) to do so.

[romansh]

1 hour ago, theMadJW said:

It's easy to tell your unbelievers- you no NOTHING about the account. Nor Bible words.

Quite possibly, but it seems you have problems with everyday words.

Out of curiosity is English you first language?

7 minutes ago, PaulS said:

I've been in MadJW's position before and appreciate how scary and difficult it can be to question what you have been told most of your life and have been convinced is the only way to see things.

Sounds like you were seriously bit, by the belief thingy. Did you ever enter the angry atheist phase when losing your faith? For me it was no big deal, as I never had much invested in faith anyway. Or did you just go straight to the more moderate agnostic phase?

I don't get the sense tMJW is questioning his faith. But he does seem angry and very unlike the kindly JWs we tend to meet in person. When you were losing your faith did you have a tendency to lash out at those that  posed difficult questions?  I suppose it might be understandable, it would have been bad enough questioning one's own faith, you don't need someone else doing it for you.

[PaulS]

13 hours ago, romansh said:

Sounds like you were seriously bit, by the belief thingy. Did you ever enter the angry atheist phase when losing your faith? For me it was no big deal, as I never had much invested in faith anyway. Or did you just go straight to the more moderate agnostic phase?

I don't get the sense tMJW is questioning his faith. But he does seem angry and very unlike the kindly JWs we tend to meet in person. When you were losing your faith did you have a tendency to lash out at those that  posed difficult questions?  I suppose it might be understandable, it would have been bad enough questioning one's own faith, you don't need someone else doing it for you.

Very seriously, Rom!  I was raised from day one on it, 'gave my life to Jesus' at 14, truly and fervently believed 'in' the bible, taught Sunday School, and talked to Jesus every day. I was a worthless sinner who was otherwise destined for hell but fortunately, I managed to see the light, unlike those from my school and early work years who I was told were deliberately choosing to disobey God because they thought they knew better.  Those unbelievers were deliberately rebelling and were refusing to accept what God was offering them.  I evangelized, went to Church morning and evening (on Sundays), belonged to our Youth Group who met on Friday nights, and for my teen years played basketball within our Church community (i.e. the Churches of Christ and later the Baptist basketball associations).  My Church and larger Christianity, was my entire world.  

You may recall my faith started to get challenged when I was around 18 or 19 and by the time I was 20, I had decided Christianity was bunk (fundamental Christianity that is, but I didn't know any other way to understand Christianity).  It was so clearly a human construct.  When I first started questioning, it was really within.  I didn't go to my Christian friends and family and question them.  I guess I didn't feel comfortable because they were firmly committed (or so it seemed) and the few times I did express doubt, I was told I was backsliding or choosing to ignore God's Word, etc.  I noticed that my Christian friends did not feel comfortable with me showing that I was having doubts.  That's where I think this Christian anger in defending belief comes from - a subconscious fear that if one goes down this path and questions their beliefs, they could end up in a whole world of hurt and standing outside of their community looking in.  For me, all the people who I grew up with, who I spent my days and evenings with for the first 20 years of my life, who were my only friends and social circle for so long - within a couple of years I had nothing to do with them.  That was partly my choice but largely theirs.

I did take more of a moderate agnostic path as I was leaving.  I remember being interested in other religions and cultures and learning about how similar they were to Christianity in so many ways, but at the same time completely different.  I began to see how this was more human nature at work than some supernatural entity.  I just worked through this over the next couple of years, with lots of guilt and momentarily relapses back into Church (but not for long) until by 20 or so, I was finished with Christianity.  It wasn’t until I was around 40 that I revisited it and learnt stuff that reinforced my earlier gut instinct.

I do remember being very angry with God whilst I was on the way out.  How dare God send people to an eternal Hell (or some other kind of God-absent eternity) for basically being human!  I didn't know that some Christians believed more in extinction of sinners than eternal suffering, but that doesn't change my opinion of such a God much.  I demanded, requested, and begged God to show me a sign or talk to me or do something to reassure me that He was real.  How hard could it be for such a powerful entity to just sound like a voice in my head, or appear apparition-like to convince me, just something.  But alas, I was talking to myself.

Look, I don't really think that MJW is questioning his (or her) faith, as far as they are aware.  But I do think that sometimes the anger to defend comes from the deep-seated fear that they could be wrong.  I don't think people even realize it, but there is a very real fear, I think, amongst many Christians, that if they open the door too wide and let doubts in, they will fall apart and all will be lost.  

When I was losing my faith I didn't lash out but then again nobody posed difficult questions to me.  I just got told I was 'rebelling' and told to get back with the program.  Nobody even really wanted to know why I was doubting.  I think they didn't want to hear because they too were scared of hearing the doubts and maybe being 'infected'.  I didn't get angry - I just thought, how can I be a part of this? - I can't - this stuff just isn't true.  I didn't have a black hole to fall into though - I was working, had a social circle, and really just moved on with my life.

[John Hunt]

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

My Church and larger Christianity, was my entire world.  

I identify with that. Used to think if I didn't convert one person a week I was falling down on the job. Knew large chunks of the Bible by heart. Thought my strictly evangelical parents weren't fundamentalist enough.

I do kind of miss that certainty though.

[PaulS]

10 hours ago, John Hunt said:

Thought my strictly evangelical parents weren't fundamentalist enough.

Wow, I bet you were a fun guy to be around, John!

10 hours ago, John Hunt said:

I do kind of miss that certainty though.

I know what you mean - Certain that your beliefs were right, certain that those with an alternate view had no idea what they were saying, and certain that no matter what hardships you faced, in the not too distant future you'd be kicking back drinking milk and having an endless supply of honey for your toast! .  It made life pretty easy to bear, so I understand the attraction.  Until the cognitive dissonance sets in - then you're buggered!

[John Hunt]

Thanks Paul.

I kind of scraped through; been happily married for 40 years, two great kids, had a good working life in publishing. And you can't go back and wonder how things might have turned out otherwise - at least not in my case.

My sister's life turned out differently though - she was studying medicine at Guy's Hospital in London, and found the "cognitive dissonance" too much. Had a breakdown, never recovered, never worked, never had a decent relationship. I found her body in her flat a few years ago. 

So I'm well aware of the problems that fundamentalism causes on the ground.

[PaulS]

2 hours ago, John Hunt said:

So I'm well aware of the problems that fundamentalism causes on the ground.

Oh John, I’m so sorry about your sister.  That is such a tragedy.  I shouldn’t have been so flippant about fundamentalism - it really is evil.

I was lucky I guess that I was able to move on after a couple of years of anguish, and have a good life (25yrs married, 2 boys myself, a couple of different careers).  But when I was suffering financial distress back in 2008 I started developing anxiety and depression, and during this time I had a relapse of doubt about Christianity.  I was in a very big hole where I couldn’t believe what Christianity taught, but was simultaneously caught with worrying about ‘what if’ they are right about Hell.

These thoughts plagued me for months and I was seriously considering killing myself just to end my suffering.  My boys were just 4 and 2 then but I remember seriously thinking that I was just going to have to leave them behind.  I can’t take any credit, but I was lucky enough just to keep breathing until my head finally came out the other side.

These days I see my parents very little - they’re still passionate about Christianity and I find it very hard to relate to them.  We have little in common.  And my sister lives in Mexico as a missionary.  Missionary is probably a bit melodramatic but she moved there with her husband about 30 years ago because God told them to and they set up a cafe whereby they evangelise.

I don’t wonder too much how things could’ve turned out differently had I stayed in Christianity.  I look at it these days and know I made the right decision.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you or cause you any pain.

[John Hunt]

No worries at all Paul. Absolutely no offence or anything like that.

Hey, I'm coming up to 70. Water long under the bridge. It's just something I've lived with all my life. And I know I'll never entirely get over it.

My sister was the star of the family. Very bright, beautiful, loads of friends, great at sports, head girl at her secondary school of a 1000+ pupils. Two years younger than me, but kind of looked after me. I was the more troubled one of the family, who our parents were probably concerned about.

Only mentioning this, because I do take this kind of stuff seriously. It's not just intellectual word games.

I do still think of myself as Christian, of the Quaker/Unitarian variety - where it doesn't matter if you are a Christian or not, or what your specific beliefs are. And I do believe that it's "real relationships" that count, rather than imaginary ones with invisible imagined deities, particularly with your family, and especially with your kids.

But totally understand what you say about parents/family. My parents have been dead for a long time, but I still have loads of cousins etc who are fundamentalist/charismatic. Who I only meet at funerals nowadays, really. There's one exception, a couple we met just a few days ago, for lunch/walk, which we do a few times a year - I know they don't think like me and my wife do, we don't think like them, but religion never comes up as a question between us, we still manage to be really good friends and enjoy each others company. 

Which I think is a kind of litmus test - if you can be friends with the "person", without religious dogma becoming an issue between you, then there's a chance. (On the other hand, having said that, I think I'd struggle to be friends with an evangelical Trump supporter, if I knew the way they voted).    

If your belief, or lack of it, is a problem for them, then that's their issue.

But it's tough, when the family think differently, I know.

All the best......