SteveS55 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 "But who is illusion-ating?" That's a cool word, and a good question, Thomas. I suppose the answer would depend on who you ask among the various Buddhist schools. I once asked a Mahayana Buddhist teacher something along those lines, and he told me that it was the imputed "I". I know he wanted me to ponder that answer, but I'm still chewing on that one! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I am curious if this is Buddhism and, if so, how it dovetails with Tariki's Buddhism and the comments on Love and empathy. If all is illusion and love goes out from itself to the other, then the 'Love that has no why' cannot be Love - because it comes from the Absolute Alone and goes back to the Absolute Alone: there is nowhere else to go because all else is illusion and is not. What does the Alone empathize with, what does Love, love? Curiouser and curiouser.....who said that? For better or worse I tend to take the advice found in the lyrics of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down", i.e. "Just take what you need and leave the rest". Which certainly has its dangers, but in my defence I would say that is what virtually everyone does in their own way. Buddhism obviously has no Christology as such. But in Christianity there are high and low Christologies. Some start with the pure humanity of Christ and work there way up, others begin with the Highest God and work there way down. If a Christian, I would start very low indeed, and stay there. Anyway, Buddhism, like Christianity, has "many mansions". I am a Pure Land Buddhist. I would leave "Absolute changeless permanant reality" to a high Buddhology, if there is such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Anyway, I think a few loved ones are invading tomorrow ( I suspect they are only coming for the turkey ) so the Christmas Holiday beckons. I might not have a lot of time for posting, especially with grandchildren taking turns on my knee for the horsey races. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Thomas, without quoting all you have said again in your last response to me, it appears that you agree with everything I have said myself yet then imply that a "realised eschatology" in the here and now is inadequate and "must have" more. Then you offer your own "master words", words which for me add nothing. We must leave it at that. Tariki, Without rereading everything, let's assume we are in agreement. I am saying that realized eschatology 'begins' in the here and now. What is given now is not inadequate: it is, I believe (and should be apparent looking at history and the present), yet to be fully realized and I allow the way to that realization continues after death, after, the so-called here and now. This recognition is the reason why Jewish expectation of eschatology evolved or change especially, if I remember correctly, around the 1st C BCE and CE. For me , it is not a 'must have more' scenario, it is that there is more (yet, it has begun) - a 'fullness,' an abundance to/of what is, that is never taken back and that more than 5, 12, 54, 68, 74, 95 or 100 years, here and now, can accomplish or realize. As for master words, I have never heard that phrase before you used it and still have no idea what it means. And I am still waiting for you to tell me about emptiness. I am of the low-Christology clan. And, high and low Buddhism and its various schools is interesting. And, I believe you did mention both the 'Love, that has no why' and the idea of the 'empathic moment.' Thanks for the words and enjoy your family! Edited December 21, 2016 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 If illusions are, then Absolute changeless permanent reality cannot be Absolute changeless permanent reality. I would say the many illusions are the temporary changes in the one Absolute changeless permanent reality that is one if we call it God, The Father, Consciousness or the Ground of Emptiness that is infinite with no beginning or end. We can't conceive of God or even describe him without using our illusions so Emptiness is used to keep it pure. I feel Jesus came to introduce us to the experience beyond the mind with the Father. "I and the Father are one." The individual through perception knows that which is outside by bringing it inside the conscious mind where the perception and the perceiver become one and the same. This is a process of love where one knows and loves something by bringing it into the heart where the bodies are distinct, but the different presences merge into one existence. “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” (Mark 10:8) Love draws people so close to each other, we can see the parts of each one in the other and being so close they can sit in silence for hours communicating without words. This experience of love is subjective because when one person loves another person that love comes along with what that person might dislike and can't stand; therefore, pure love is not objective, but a subjective unity of what exist. Nothing can appear in the objective world unless there is first a subjective world to perceive that object; therefore, there is no object on the outside of Reality because everything exists inside subjectivity. This is the perception that the Christian theologians have while they understand that the Universe has to be one in order to exist at all with all reality and everything within it. Our thoughts arise from a pure consciousness in which both the one who sees, and that which is seen, exist in unity in a medium where nothing is outside the Absolute Self. The Bible says, "God is everything." Therefore, God exists in me, and because of this I can recognize other beings in which God exists, which is the medium through which we are conscious of others, our environment and ourselves. There is no permanent, immovable, material reality that we can be attached to, no single observation or awareness of the world, only different subjective views of reality as everything is vibrating and renewing. Everything in the universe is energy carrying information, a consciousness at its own level or form that is perceived. William Blade, a farseeing mystic and poet said, “If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.” Since objects are not permanent and are constantly changing we don’t see them as they are, but we see them subjectively as we coexist with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Thomas, I took "master words" from some quote that Rom offered in this thread. I just took what I needed and left the rest. No matter. "Emptiness" , well, I have offered a few words here and there. Plus a book recomendation. Take what you need and leave the rest. I would put a smiley here if my kindle was up to it. Happy Christmas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Joseph, who offered that as a summary of the Pali Canon? ( By the way, just reading again from Stephen Batchelor's latest, and his deconstruction, then reconstruction, of the "There must be an Unborn, an Unconditioned" passage, drawn from the Udana, makes for good reading, if nothing else. Mr Batchelor would, I think, see the "summary" offered as more a neo-hinduism in need of its own deconstruction) Click on the words and it takes you to this Page I just quoted a couple sentences and said it was interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 But who is illusion-ating? It can't be the changeless reality because illusion, any illusion, any make-believe fiction, any delusion would be something 'new:' it would be a change; it wouldn't be permanent; it wouldn't be absolute; and, it wouldn't be reality. So, it can't be Absolute changeless permanent reality! And, it can't be anything else, because there is nothing else. Yet, it must be Absolute changeless permanent reality, but, if so, why does 'it' engage in make-believe fiction? Why would absolute unchanging permanent reality create, permit or need such illusions? And, again, the very illusions would be a change from total changelessness. That which creates this impermanence which is the multifaceted illusion or fiction appearing as the many is the One, the unconditioned. It alone exists as reality and all else is fiction. Welcome to the drama of life and death which is to perish. Who is 'illusionating' you ask. It seems to me the answer is 'no one' or 'no thing' for a lack of better words. Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) I think that's a pretty good summary, Joseph. Buddhism (institutional), as well as Christianity, have pretty much gone off the rails over the centuries (in my opinion). It seems to me that the whole point of the Buddha's teaching was the truth of suffering, death and impermanence, and contingent existence (emptiness). Beyond that, he didn't have all that much to say outside of suggesting we try it for ourselves and see if it fits. As I recall, his idea of meditation, a prerequisite to clarity of mind, was sitting out in the forest somewhere and concentrating on the breath. What could be simpler? Everything else, as Tariki has pointed out, are just words and intellectualization, the very things that keep us in this cycle of ignorance. By the way, Thomas. The answer to the question of "who is illusion-ating" is "I" am! Edited December 21, 2016 by SteveS55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Steve, Yes, i agree with that. I think Christianity was also meant to be simple so that as Isaiah said even a fool on the way would not err.. Jesus did not even give Christianity a name and i think the early followers of Jesus who just called it 'the way' were more simplistic in their approach. One commandment could take one the entire journey without a theological degree which can add on lifetimes and dictionaries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Someone said, "The intellect is a great servant, but a terrible master." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Joseph and Rom, I have to ask if any of your recent statements are tongue in cheek and in asking that I intend no disrespect, I am just left smiling at the notion that although you recognize that causality in this world is an illusion you still plan for retirement. Tongue in cheek? Not at all Thomas. Having said that I don't think this is the only interpretation of relativity. I have no reason to dismiss causality. What Joseph has described is a single cause that cemented the universe and the way we think it evolves. We are not even causally responsible (never mind ultimately responsible) for the actions we perceive. Any peace, whatever, Joseph might find in this universe is not an unfolding, more predetermined when this universe came into existence. Of course our interpretations of quantum mechanics have not been reconciled with relativity. But then quantum phenomena, despite Soma's viewpoint, don't give us a brighter viewpoint for those of us who believe in and want to have an intrinsic self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted December 22, 2016 Author Share Posted December 22, 2016 Someone said, "The intellect is a great servant, but a terrible master." And was this person using intellect to make this statement? Either way it is a no win for this person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) Thomas, I took "master words" from some quote that Rom offered in this thread. I just took what I needed and left the rest. No matter. "Emptiness" , well, I have offered a few words here and there. Plus a book recomendation. Take what you need and leave the rest. I would put a smiley here if my kindle was up to it. Happy Christmas. Tariki, I never knew which words were being called master words but, more importantly, for me, 'master words' cuts the dialogue as if a particular word or words are verboten. And I have your book selection arriving soon and just found 'The Gospel According to Zen' on my bookshelf. Edited December 22, 2016 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) That which creates this impermanence which is the multifaceted illusion or fiction appearing as the many is the One, the unconditioned. It alone exists as reality and all else is fiction. Welcome to the drama of life and death which is to perish. Who is 'illusionating' you ask. It seems to me the answer is 'no one' or 'no thing' for a lack of better words. Joseph I would say the many illusions are the temporary changes in the one Absolute changeless permanent reality that is one if we call it God, The Father, Consciousness or the Ground of Emptiness that is infinite with no beginning or end. We can't conceive of God or even describe him without using our illusions so Emptiness is used to keep it pure. I feel Jesus came to introduce us to the experience beyond the mind with the Father. "I and the Father are one." I truly appreciate the attempts at an answer because I am very curious and interested in the insights or ways of other traditions. However, the explanations still appear to counter Absolute Changeless permanent reality: even temporary changes or created impermanence are changes in changelessness and impermanence in the permanent; seemingly, there is no way around this. And, even as we try to understand this contradiction - we are told that we, that the seeming changes, that all - never was as it 'was' only ever illusion - so it doesn't count? But how could it, if it is not? What is Buddhism's (any school, either high or low buddhism) answer or insight: why the fiction, why illusion, why does the permanent reality make believe? It can't be to share being/itself because only it is (nothing else is real), it can't be to 'see' itself or 'experience' because whatever is seen or experienced is illusion and will not change the changeless anyway. And then we have a further contradiction that the 'One' creates the illusion but then that there is 'no One' or 'no thing' creating the illusions. And there is no drama of life to be welcomed to - all, according to this view, is not. And, in this understanding, there is nothing for Jesus to introduce us to: any introduction or the object of that introduction is mere fiction. And, if the Father, in this scenario, is the Permanent reality who creates illusion - then there is no mind and thus no experience beyond the mind or otherwise. Even Steve's comments lead to more questions: if all is illusion, then the Buddha (who must also be an illusion) has no point: suffering, death and impermanence, and contingent existence have no truth because all are illusion. Further, not only words and intellectualization but everything else, all else is illusion. And how can there be a cycle of ignorance when there is not but fiction? And Steve, if you are illusion-ating, are you the Absolute changeless reality who was said to be 'behind' the illusions? If not, how could 'I am' create illusion when it is illusion? The comment on Christianity is interesting, however - while the early followers of Jesus did call it 'the way' and indeed the one commandment (of Love) could take one the entire journey - there seems to be a difference stance/belief: it (the way, the commandment, Jesus, the journey, the destiny, all) was/is no illusion, no fiction - it is real. In Christianity there is still paradox: One and many; changeless and changing; One/no one who creates, however, it is real. Oh, well time to run for last minute shopping. Edited December 22, 2016 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) "Even Steve's comments lead to more questions: if all is illusion, then the Buddha (who must also be an illusion) has no point: suffering, death and impermanence, and contingent existence have no truth because all are illusion. Further, not only words and intellectualization but everything else, all else is illusion. And how can there be a cycle of ignorance when there is not but fiction? And Steve, if you are illusion-ating, are you the Absolute changeless reality who was said to be 'behind' the illusions? If not, how could 'I am' create illusion when it is illusion?" Yes, Thomas, it is all illusion. The Buddha, ignorance, suffering, all of it is illusion. Everything is absent, yet apparent! You could say that it is all a lie, and yet the only "truth" we can know is conventional truth. Trying to go beyond that is attempting to understand the ineffable. "All conditioned phenomena Are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow, Like dew or a flash of lightning; Thus we shall perceive them.” The Diamond Sutra Steve Edited December 22, 2016 by SteveS55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Tariki, I never knew which words were being called master words but, more importantly, for me, 'master words' cuts the dialogue as if a particular word or words are verboten. And I have your book selection arriving soon and just found 'The Gospel According to Zen' on my bookshelf. Ah ha! Just spotted that you are thormas, not thomas. I've been speaking to the wrong person all this time. No matter. As I am now slipping into party mood your bookshelf book made be think of some comments that Merton made in his Preface to his book "The Way of Chuang Tzu", that he was ( in that book ) in no way seeking to pull Christian rabbits out of a Taoist hat. He loved Chuang Tzu simply for who he was. So the "gospel" of zen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) "Even Steve's comments lead to more questions: if all is illusion, then the Buddha (who must also be an illusion) has no point: suffering, death and impermanence, and contingent existence have no truth because all are illusion. Further, not only words and intellectualization but everything else, all else is illusion. And how can there be a cycle of ignorance when there is not but fiction? And Steve, if you are illusion-ating, are you the Absolute changeless reality who was said to be 'behind' the illusions? If not, how could 'I am' create illusion when it is illusion?" Yes, Thomas, it is all illusion. The Buddha, ignorance, suffering, all of it is illusion. Everything is absent, yet apparent! You could say that it is all a lie, and yet the only "truth" we can know is conventional truth. Trying to go beyond that is attempting to understand the ineffable. "All conditioned phenomena Are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow, Like dew or a flash of lightning; Thus we shall perceive them.” The Diamond Sutra Steve Yet Steve, the issue remains in that if all is illusion then there is not truth for it would be given by illusion and received by illusion, so it is not. Also, not a lie, not truth, not conventional truth - no beyond, no attempt, no understanding, no ineffable - for all is illusion. However, if it is a 'like' - like 'a flash of lightening, like early morning dew' - we have moved to simile, closing in on metaphor, symbol, image and analogy. Edited December 22, 2016 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 In any case, Thomas, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, to you, your family and everybody on this forum! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soma Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Someone said, "The intellect is a great servant, but a terrible master." And was this person using intellect to make this statement? Either way it is a no win for this person. Yes, he was using his intellect, which as a tool is a great servant, but if we identify with it, it is a terrible master leading us in circles, fear mongering and desiring everything that glitters in duality. If illusions are, then Absolute changeless permanent reality cannot be Absolute changeless permanent reality. I think it can be Absolute changeless permanent reality because it doesn't change, the change is within it. In Christian speak, God the Father doesn't change, but his creation, which is temporary changes. Another way is God the Father is one all encompassing ocean that is infinite, does not change because it is whole even though change is happening in parts of the infinite, the infinite is still unchangeable. The forces within different currents cause waves to appear out of the whole ocean. I am at the peak of one wave and you are at the peak of another. We are illusion-ating thinking that we are separate. Another wave with Buddha or Jesus at the peak says you guys are not divided, you two are one in an Ocean of Bliss. Just go deep within yourself and you will see the connections where everything is one. Just empty your mind so you will sink into a state of grace and experience the unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Thormas, Perhaps you are thinking too deeply and drawing mental conclusions that we are saying people have no point, no truth and that we have no existence or nothing is real from what was said? The word illusion as i defined earlier just means "a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses" I indeed see you in truth as whole with everything else but my senses say you are separate. The separation to me is conditioned in mind and is an illusion. Ignorance is merely being unaware of truth. When conditioning is set aside there remains only the unconditioned from which all impermanence gets its temporal being. It seems to me it would not be inaccurate to say that the conditioned and unconditioned, or changeless and changing are one even while the conditioned and changing falls in our word category of the word illusion. Even Fiction is real although it is fabricated and may be wrongly perceived. These things in my view can't be reasoned or figured out. But good luck trying. Experience seems, to me, to be where the answer is but with it the question simply disappears as a non-question. What i see is in the end there is nothing to figure out. Perhaps we are to live our life according to the Grace present in you (me) and have a Merry Christmas and Wonderful New Year Joseph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 (edited) And to you too Steve. Soma, thanks, your latest is very helpful. I recognize that many of those here, who have written and tried to explain Buddhism, have made a 'faith' decision: this way speaks to them, so they, in turn, and in some real way, give themselves over in trust and commitment in this way. So for them, also for me: my interest in not mere intellectual gymnastics, but rather looking to other explanations or 'ways' to add light to what resonates for me: Christianity. Agreeing with Soma, in Christianity, the Father is one, permanent, changeless, absolute. And, in the 'all encompassing' Father, there is change; there is the many. The different seems to be that in the Christian way, the change is not temporary. The changes give the 'illusion' that there is duality, separateness, division - but, that is an illusion (false belief), the many (changes) are 'within' the Absolute, the one. For Christianity, the many 'suffer' under this 'illusion' that they are separate and divided. But - it is the separateness that is the illusion - not the changes! In Christianity, the absurdity is that absolute, changeless, permanent reality 'lets' be:' the absolute shares being. Absolute reality is changeless and it is one - and, 'within' it, there is change and there are many. How is this paradox possible? Who knows. Why is this? That one is easy: Love - has no why! In Christianity, the one, the absolute (Father) - moves to expressive (creative) being - moves to unitive being to break through the 'illusion of separateness' by enabling the many to be one. Christianity (seemingly) differs from Buddhism mainly in its belief that the changes are not temporary and the many are not the illusion. Rather, it is the separateness, the divided-ness of the many within the one that is the illusion. Therefore, in the Christian way, one utters, 'thank you' - the only prayer of Eckhart, calls absolute changeless permanent reality - Abba and, trustingly, commits as a son and a daughter. At least, I suspect as of this writing. Edited December 23, 2016 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 (edited) . Yes, he was using his intellect, which as a tool is a great servant, but if we identify with it, it is a terrible master leading us in circles, fear mongering and desiring everything that glitters in duality. Terrible master? I think not. Poor implementation of intellect perhaps. Edited December 23, 2016 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Joseph, I just saw your post after writing, with numerous interruptions, my post. It strikes me that there are different way that people learn best, so too I think there are different ways that people 'worship' best. For some, myself included, it is not in a traditional worshipping community but rather with reading, thinking, discussing and writing. But as in all worship, the point is to live the answer or as you say to live life in the Grace present. This is summed up nicely at the end of the Catholic mass, 'go love and serve..........'. Thanks. Merry Christmas to you and yours also! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveS55 Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 “I recognize that many of those here, who have written and tried to explain Buddhism, have made a 'faith' decision: this way speaks to them, so they, in turn, and in some real way, give themselves over in trust and commitment in this way.” I can’t speak for the others here who have an interest in Buddhism, Thomas. I honestly don’t even consider myself a Buddhist! But, its philosophy and psychology do offer me some perhaps tentative and provisional answers to my questions about the nature of existence. I might have a different view of “faith decision” than most. I see “faith” as a confident expectation that I am proceeding according to my unique “karmic propensities”. I’m not sure what phrase that equates to in Christianity. But, I don’t mean anything supernatural by it. It’s sort of a catch-all to include my genetic predispositions, cultural, tribal, familial, educational, and all of the other environmental influences that have impacted my life. Now that I’m older I have some perspective on my “path”, and it begins to make sense in terms of everything I have experienced. At the time, I had no conscious clue what was happening. It would have been like trying to understand the path of a bird in flight. I am beginning to see that I was and am in a sense pre-determined to act according to those propensities. It’s always possible to make adjustments, change behavior (which I have definitely done) and so on, but what I am is what I started with plus how I have been conditioned, less adjustments made. That’s kind of an equation I guess! So, that’s my take on “faith”. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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