tariki

Thanks for accepting the invitation and popping through the door...... Derek

At Grass by Philip Larkin The eye can hardly pick them out From the cold shade they shelter in, Till wind distresses tail and main; Then one crops grass, and moves about - The other seeming to look on - And stands anonymous again Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps Two dozen distances surficed To fable them: faint afternoons Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps, Whereby their names were artificed To inlay faded, classic Junes - Silks at the start: against the sky Numbers and parasols: outside, Squadrons of empty cars, and heat, And littered grass : then the long cry Hanging unhushed till it subside To stop-press columns on the street. Do memories plague their ears like flies? They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows. Summer by summer all stole away, The starting-gates, the crowd and cries - All but the unmolesting meadows. Almanacked, their names live; they Have slipped their names, and stand at ease, Or gallop for what must be joy, And not a fieldglass sees them home, Or curious stop-watch prophesies: Only the grooms, and the grooms boy, With bridles in the evening come.

Seems to say it like it is. All part of the spirituality of imperfection. How much time can be wasted striving to reach final conclusions, let alone preparing for and anticipating "heaven"........seeking to make outselves "fit" for it! A clearly enlightened person falls in the well. How is this so? (Zen Koan) (Well, I know exactly how an unenlightened person does it...........by having one too many at the local hostelry...) He was in a very bad state, very dark, very bitter, very angry. When asked what was the matter,he said, "Look at me; I've been in this monastery for 38 years, and I have not yet attained pure prayer." And this other fellow was saying how sad he thought this was. Another man present said, "It's a sad story all right, but the sadness consists in the fact that after 38 years in a monastery he's still interested in pure prayer."

I was meandering through some old threads on another forum, and saw this. It just seemed appropriate given the drift on some discussions here that I am not allowed to enter. Seeing the Question as separate from the answer is duality

david, I shall be as polite as possible. I grant you have given an aswer as to just how you understand "faith" within your own "system". Thanks. Beyond that, I repeat, you have listened to nothing and answered nothing. I personally find your constant attempt to "prove" that billions of human beings will suffer eternally to be perverse. Note, I say that this is how I find it, I do not accuse you of any perversity. I find your cast-iron logical system - full of "precision" - implies totally hideous conclusions that I find totally and completely against the Mercy. Grace and Love of the Divine as the Divine has choosen to reveal Itself to me in my own life. I hope this is plain to you. I'm sorry, I end this dialogue............which given Dutch's definitions never began anyway. Please respect my wishes by not adressing me again. Sorry, but thats how it is. Derek

Sorry, david, you appear to have listened to nothing, and answered nothing. Over and out

david, I said I would play no further part in this debate/dialogue, and I'm not really seeking to now. Rather more to explain excactly why. And to ask a question or two, and give some sort of resume of the debate so far. First, a question. What part does "faith" play in this cast iron logical argument of yours that leaves us but two choices? Second, another question, this posed previously to you by Mike, which As far as I can see you have avoided. (I apologise if you have in fact answered it) To quote Mike.... Secondly I do not see how 'freedom' is especially given meaning by the idea that God has placed before us only two paths: one of eternal joy, and the other of eternal torment. Not much of a choice to me. That life is all about getting to heaven, and that, by way of an extremely constricted path, does not embody the word 'freedom' to my mind, or best convey that our choices really matter. What about all the great people of the world who are not Christian? Their choices didn't matter much - they all went to the same place. But about all the great - and not-so-great Christians of the world? All going to heaven. Now as to why I play no further part here, as far as logical arguments are concerned. First, because for me the "answers" to some of the questions here regarding "imperssonal" and "personal" revolve around further questions about what we exactly mean by the terms, both applied to the divinity and to "ourselves". Within interfaith dialogue this is a very live issue, andcertainly not settled. There are some ground-breaking essays in Thomas Merton's book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" where in part he "dialogs" with himself in relation to Buddhist teachings, and then with D.T.Suzuki, the Zen/Shin man, on such things as "emptiness" and the "fall of man". Quite frankly, I need the ground broken for myself here! And to be honest, I don't think its being done here. Second, a quote from the Buddhist texts..... Profound is this doctrine, recondite, and difficult of comprehension, good, excellent, and not to be reached by mere reasoning, subtile, and intelligible only to the wise; and it is a hard doctrine for you to learn, who belong to another sect, to another faith, to another persuasion, to another discipline, and sit at the feet of another teacher. I don't quote this to imply you are not wise, and to imply I am!! Merely to emphasise the real problem. And the problem for me is I'm once again unable to argue one way or the other. As I've said before, I'm not the brightest thing on two legs, and in me defence, more intuitive tahn logical. There are in Buddhism the "inexplicable/undetermined questions" not given to final logical analysis.....beginnings, endings, the self etc. I've got big thick books where various Buddhist thinkers discuss theses, as towheteher the Buddha would not answer because they ought not to be answered or whether the Buddha thought they ought not to be answered because thay could not be. To be honest, I'm lost. So what is the point of me seeking to argue with you here? Now I will give an opinion of this debate and I will seek to be kind. Personally I find something desperately sad in a "view" that in effect claims that this Cosmos we live in will never be free of suffering, that the fate of billions of our fellow human beings will be to know only an eternity of alienation and despair. This after one short sharp finite life full of ambiguity. I'm claiming no monopoloy on compassion here, merely stating how it appears to me. And it becomes even more desperately sad when the facts are that within the early Church and the teachings of many of the early Church Fathers, the idea of Universal Reconciliation was taught; taught also by four of the six "theological colleges" that existed in those days. It was only declared heretical in the sixth century, and this, as far as I can see, for reasons not just "theological". I accept you argue as you do with the best of intentions. It just seems to me so desperately sad. Well, for someone playing no further part, I've waffled on long enough, and I havent even got the flu to excuse me! All the best david, Derek

Hopkins certainly had a way with words. Here is Binsey Poplars. The way the words tumble during the first few lines.........and very ecologically relevant, which just goes to show, if we keep strutting our stuff come what may, eventually it all comes around again. Which is what I tell "the wife" when I don, yet again, that old old suit I wore for the wedding...... My aspens dear, whose airy cages quelled, Quelled or quenched in leaves the leaping sun, All felled, felled, are all felled; Of a fresh and following folded rank Not spared, not one That dandled a sandalled Shadow that swam or sank On meadow and river and wind-wandering weed-winding bank. O if we but knew what we do When we delve or hew— Hack and rack the growing green! Since country is so tender To touch, her being so slender, That, like this sleek and seeing ball But a prick will make no eye at all, Where we, even where we mean To mend her we end her, When we hew or delve: After-comers cannot guess the beauty been. Ten or twelve, only ten or twelve Strokes of havoc unselve The sweet especial scene, Rural scene, a rural scene, Sweet especial rural scene.

Heaven-Haven...A Nun Takes the Veil I have desired to go Where springs not fail, To fields where flies no sharp and sided hail And a few lilies blow. And I have asked to be Where no storms come, Where the green swell is in the havens dumb, And out of the swing of the sea. (Gerard Manley Hophins) I'm certainly no nun, so I'll never take the veil.........yet just now these words have there appeal

david, C. S. Lewis, the Great Divorce, Preface..............as provided by Dutch on the Poetry and Quotes thread. And, my apologies, but you are right, I am out of the door.....at least on this thread. Not seeking to be rude or anything, it just has to be. All the best Derek

hey, thats a pretty potent application of the saying, though in a secular context.......visually it would rate an X-certificate.........good grief!

"God is not beyond thought. You and I seem to think about Him all the time" Davidk, this jogged my mind and I've looked it up. From the writings of the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart........ We should not content ourselves with a God of thoughts for, when the thoughts come to en end, so too shall God. Rather , we should have a living God who is beyond the thoughts of all people and all creatures. This kind of God will not leave us, unless we ourselves choose to turn away from him

David, Many thanks for the Christmas greetings and New Year wishes. Personally I didn't get all I wished for for Xmas, but the socks and Y-Fronts will come in handy. And I have spent some time on another forum, where the Bible bashing is so bereft of the Sprit of Christ that I can only say...."come back Billy Graham, all is forgiven!". Well, it makes me truly appreciate your own grace in dialogue, and I say that with sincerity. One thing the Buddha spoke ofwasof how we should see ourselves with regard to others............as niether there superiors, nor their inferiors, nor as their equals. I haven't "cracked" much in this life, but I've made just a little progress on this one. all I'm saying is, I do not seek to teach, nor to talk down to. More a conversation. There was a quote given to us by Dutch on the "Poetry and Quotes" threrad - a good little thread though I say so myself - , a few words by C.S.Lewis. life is not like a river but like a tree. It does not move towards unity but away from it and the creatures grow further apart as they increase in perfection. Good, as it ripens, becomes continually more different not only from evil but from other good. Hopefully you can understand the problems I face here on a basically Christian Forum, constantly needing almost to "translate" my own terminology into Christian terms - though it does aid in helping me see that the "word is not the thing", it can lead to confusion, not least to myself! I've often spoken of heaven, and you seem to see it as a "final destination". Why? Why does the "journey" ever stop, or need to? As its said, sometimes, within the Buddhist Faith, the path IS the destination. So, no, we do not all end up in the same "place" eventually, and our choices do mean everything. Well, thats it. I appreciate the thought you have given to the debates we have had, and how you have sought to say "yes" where you can. But again, now I have tpo say that I do not wish these words ofmine to be the opening salvo of yet another exchange. I really don't want it. Thats not tosay you cannot answer, obviously you can. But for me, thats it. All the best Derek

Another by R.S.Thomas, showing his lighter side.... Job Davies, eighty-five Winters old, and still alive After the slow poison And treachery of the seasons. Miserable? Kick my arse! It needs more than the rain's hearse, Wind-drawn, to pull me off The great perch of my laugh. What's living but courage? Paunch full of hot porridge, Nerves strengthened with tea, Peat-black, dawn found me Mowing where the grass grew, Bearded with golden dew. Rhythm of the long scythe Kept this tall frame lithe. What to do? Stay green. Never mind the machine, Whose fuel is human souls. Live large man, and dream small.

Joseph, Never "heard" it like that before. Yes, you're right, it has that in it.... Thanks Derek

Dutch, Never sure it was EVER a koan. For some reason, at one time, it was immensely important to me..........now for the life of me I can't remember exactly why! Glad you got something from the poems. All the best Derek

Thought I would just post another by R.S.Thomas. He was a Anglican Priest who was given a parish in Wales, among the hill farmers. He came to love this land, and those people. Anyway, "The Hill Farmer Speaks" I am the farmer stripped of love And thoughts and grace by the land's hardness; But what I am saying over the fields' Desolate acres, rough with dew, Is, Listen, listen, I am a man like you. The wind goes over the hill pastures Year after year, and the ewes starve, Milkless, for want of the new grass. And I starve, too, for something the spring Can never foster in veins run dry. The pig is a friend, the cattle's breath Mingles with mine in the still lanes; I wear it willingly like a cloak To shelter me from your curious gaze. The hens go in and out at the door From sun to shadow, as stray thoughts pass Over the floor of my wide skull. The dirt is under my cracked nails; The tale of my life is smirched with dung; The phlegm rattles. But what I am saying Over the grasses rough with dew Is, Listen, listen, I am a man like you.

Dutch, The more the merrier! Just picking up on the line about whether a story is true or not............just a demonstration of how my dustbin of a mind spins off at tangents......what came into mind was the little saying I remember from somewhere... When wrong person uses right means, right means work in wrong way. Derek

Dutch, nice for you to pop into the thread. Your quote is something to chew on.........golden lotus flowers. rinanna, to be honest, after reading through the The Invitation a couple of times, I find it far too overwhelming, like a roaring tidalwave that just sweeps me away. Can't "live up" to that, making a list of how we ought to be, of how we are shaping up in someone elses eyes. I'd rather just fall short and rest in mercy and grace and then be surprised by joy on the odd ocassion. well, thats how I see it...

Rivanna, thats some invitation........

I've long had a great love for the poetry of William Blake. In the long long ago I often dipped into the prose of a guy called Malcolm Muggeridge, who wrote on various topics. Every now and agin, for one reason or another, he would colour his words with a couplet from Blake. Thses tiny snippets were alweays attractive to me, and one day when browsing in a book shop I just happened to see a copy of "The Portable Blake" at a knock-down price (always have had an eye for a bargain, being basically tight!) Anyway, I bought the book and my love affair with Blake began. Apparently, as I learnt from a little bit of biographical detail, the guy talked to angels.........this did make me think once that maybe he was just a little bit ga ga.....well, until yesterday, when I caught myself talking to some of the merchandise I was putting out on the shelves during my shift at the local store! Better to talk to angels than demister pads, methinks! Well, perhaps I've waffled enough.......just one or two quotes from Blake that I have always loved, and often reflected upon for one reason or another. God appears and God is Light To those poor Souls who dwell in Night But does a Human Form Display To those who Dwell in Realms of day. (From Auguries of Innocence) And from his long poem, "The Everlasting Gospel" Loud Pilate Howl'd, loud Caiphas yell'd, When they the Gospel Light beheld. It was when Jesus said to Me, "Thy sins are all forgiven thee." and.... The Vision of Christ that thou dost see Is my Vision's Greatest Enemy: Thine has a great hook nose like thine, Mine has a snub nose like to mine; Thine is the friend of All Mankind, Mine speaks in parables to the Blind: Thine loves the same world that mine hates, Thy Heavens doors are my Hell Gates. And as Blake said once....."If moral virtue were Christianity then Socrates was the Savior" Merry Christmas everyone! Derek

ada, Thank you for your attempt to pacify the masses (!! ) however, like Joseph I did find more in your own work. Thank you. Here is a little vanity of my own, a naive childlike piece that I wrote many years ago. At the time we lived next door to a family who had a young child, Georgie, who unfortunately had been starved of oxygen at birth and had suffered brain damage. One day as I walked past their gate the mother, with Georgie in his push chair, was chatting to another lady. This lady bent down and ruffled little Georgie's hair and said..." Oh, he's a little angel, a little angel." For some reason I felt real anger, and still find it difficult to really articulate exactly why. Anyway, I wrote this.....written, I suppose, for his mother, though I never gave it to her. see no wings on georgie else he would be bound set no seal upon him place no fences round see him not for what he could be what he should or what he would be see him as he is before you see the living truth, see georgie hope for guidance, hold no answers in the morning when you wake him as he casts his eyes upon you your response can make or break him

David, My trust and faith is that whatever we have been doing to each other will bear fruit by the Grace of Reality-as-is. "For the earth brings forth fruit of herself." It seems obvious that there is nothing left to say. The rest is silence....... All the best Derek

David, I got a reminder a couple of days ago that I had already ducked out of this thread once, leaving you to have the last word. My trouble seems to be that I duck and dive a bit between forums and threads and lose track a bit, so anyway, I'm back again but please speak again yourself if the mood takes you..... Well, from what I know of the "others" here they are well aware of the need for love and God's grace, I just think its a question of "others" believing that such grace can be mediated to human beings in ways other than those set by your own conceptual framework. And you have received answers to your constant claim that only the personal God can ultimately sustain "diversity". Once again, I am no logician, but I do know that "eastern" logic is of an order that differs from "western", and therefore applying western categories towards it are totally beside the point. In addition, all the words of The Buddha are soteriological in intent, they do not "ignore" the discussion, merely observe that until the mind is clarified by the erasing of "dukkha" (which has far deeper meanings than the mere word "suffering") then our questions and the answers we would accept to them would be irrelevant. Questions of the meaning of "personhood" and just what we mean by "personal" etc etc etc are extremely relevant to any interfaith dialogue, but they are not settled by insisting that your own conceptual framework is taken as the only base/starting point. Once again I wish you well, All the best Derek

rivanna, the words of Louise Bogan brought to mind a few words by some Buddhist sage from the long past, I think more associated with Ch'an (Zen) than Pure Land. They float on the edge of my mind and I'm unable to trace them, but the meaning was that there is just a hairs breath between nirvana and samsara. I think that perhaps the tragedy is that we spend our entire lives seeking to make samsara more comfortable, instead of taking the short "leap" into nirvana! Ahhh! Anyway, these thoughts in turn have prompted the memory of the following poem by Maya Angelou, which you may be familiar with. I know why the caged bird sings.... The free bird leaps on the back of the wind and floats downstream till the current ends and dips his wings in the orange sun rays and dares to claim the sky. But a bird that stalks down his narrow cage can seldom see through his bars of rage his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing. The caged bird sings with fearful trill of the things unknown but longed for still and his tune is heard on the distant hill for the caged bird sings of freedom The free bird thinks of another breeze and the trade winds soft through the sighing trees and the fat worms waiting on a dawn-bright lawn and he names the sky his own. But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams his shadow shouts on a nightmare scream his wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing The caged bird sings with a fearful trill of things unknown but longed for still and his tune is heard on the distant hill for the caged bird sings of freedom. Just to add a note of humour to these musings of mine, there is a small verse written by the comedian Spike Milligan, where he adapts some words from "Auguries of Innocence" by William Blake. No prizes fo guessing just where Blakes words end and Milligans begin! The Robin Redbreast in a cage Puts all heaven in a rage, But not the Lesser Spotted Twit She doesn't mind a bit.