tariki

Following the seven lights of awakening, The seven lights, given by Cleary as:- Recollection, Examination of realities, Diligence, Joyfulness, Tranquillity, Concentration and Equanimity.

The Wise Man The wise man tells you Where you have fallen And where you yet may fall - Invaluable secrets! Follow him, follow the way. Let him chasten and teach you and keep you from mischief. The world may hate him. But good men love him. Do not look for bad company Or live with men who do not care. Find friends who love the truth. Drink deeply. Live in serenity and joy. The wise man delights in the truth And follows the law of the awakened. The farmer channels water to his land. The fletcher whittles his arrows. And the carpenter turns his wood. So the wise man directs his mind. The wind cannot shake a mountain. Neither praise nor blame moves the wise man. He is clarity. Hearing the truth, He is like a lake, Pure and tranquil and deep. Want nothing. Where there is desire, Say nothing. Happiness or sorrow - Whatever befalls you, Walk on Untouched, unattached. Do not ask for family or power or wealth, Either for yourself or for another. Can a wise man wish to rise unjustly? Few cross over the river. Most are stranded on this side. On the riverbank they run up and down. But the wise man, following the way, Crosses over, beyond the reach of death. He leaves the dark way For the way of light. He leaves his home, seeking Happiness on the hard road. Free from desire, Free from possessions, Free from the dark places of the heart. Free from attachment and appetite, Following the seven lights of awakening, And rejoicing greatly in his freedom, In this world the wise man Becomes himself a light, Pure, shining, free.

Anyway, Thomas Cleary says of this current chapter, that it deals with the mental pollution of folly, one of the factors known to produce misery. "Here the fool is characterized by ignorance of truth, possessiveness, conceit, insensitivity, shortsightedness, and self-importance." Commenting on.... The fool who knows he is a fool Is that much wiser. The fool who thinks he is wise Is a fool indeed. .....he mentions some words of Confucius, who said "Shall I teach you how to know something? Realize you know it when you know it, and realize you don't know it when you don't."

AHHHH!.........."theoretically possible" Yes, that could be it, thanks Mike. Become one with everything..........theoretically possible. Becoming one with everything is a bit of a parody of the "eastern" viewpoint, if I might say so, based more upon the words of those such as Sir Edwin Arnold in his ""The Light of Asia", something about the dewdrop slipping into the shining sea..... The symbolism within the Pure Land sees gold as representing the undifferentiated nature of enlightenment, while the lotus flower (which grows out of the muck) symbolises each unique individual. So the Pure Land is full of infinite golden lotus flowers. Merton speaks of the Hidden Ground of Love, and a consciousness born of such, prior to the subject-object split.....and I would suppose, subject to it. Seriously, my own mind tends to fuzz out at most of this, and I just start thinking whether or not the cat needs feeding. My eyes being hindered by blind passions, I cannot perceive the light that grasps me; Yet the great compassion, without tiring, Illumines me always. (From "Hymns of The Pure Land Masters", Shinran) Anyway, back to the Dhammapada..............otherwise the moderator just might have to step in and speak of the thread being hi-jacked.....

The Fool How long the night to the watchman, How long the road to the weary traveler, How long the wandering of many lives To the fool who misses the way. If the traveler cannot find Master or friend to go with him, Let him travel alone Rather than with a fool for company. "My children, my wealth!" So the fool troubles himself. But how has he children or wealth? He is not even his own master. The fool who knows he is a fool Is that much wiser. The fool who thinks he is wise Is a fool indeed. Does the spoon taste the soup? A fool may live all his life In the company of a master And still miss the way. The tongue tastes the soup. If you are awake in the presence of a master One moment will show you the way. The fool is his own enemy. The mischief is his undoing. How bitterly he suffers! Why do what you will regret? Why bring tears upon yourself? Do only what you do not regret, And fill yourself with joy. For a while the fool's mischief Tastes sweet, sweet as honey. Bit in the end it turns bitter. And how bitterly he suffers! For months the fool may fast, Eating from the tip of a grass blade. Still he is not worth a penny Beside the master whose food is the way. Fresh milk takes time to sour. So a fool's mischief Takes time to catch up with him. Like the embers of a fire It smolders within him. Whatever a fool learns, It only makes him duller. Knowledge cleaves his head. For then he wants recognition. A place before other people, A place over other people. "Let them know my work, Let everyone look to me for direction." Such are his desires, Such is his swelling pride. One way leads to wealth and fame, The other to the end of the way. Look not for recognition But follow the awakened And set yourself free.

I can't quite catch what the Dalai Lama actually says at about the 43/44 second mark of the video. Sounds like "particularly possible" or something, but I can't make sense of it. Any offers?

Maybe if it had been about hot dogs or burgers he would have got it? Anyway George, not a digression at all. There was a story of the Dalai Lama where he was invited to give a talk on Tibetan Metaphysics to an invited audience of 2000 people. He walked onto the stage, where a rather large chair had been readied for his royal presence, complete with a very large cushion. He sat himself down and found himself bouncing up and down a bit, which caused him to break into delighted chuckles. He preceded to bounce for a few seconds more, all the while smiling and laughing. Eventually, I suppose, he gave his profound lecture, but a zen master would have said the lecture had already been given! We should all learn to bounce a little bit more.

Like a lovely flower, Bright but scentless, Are the fine but empty words Of the man who does not mean what he says. Or, as Jesus says in St Matthew..... "The scribes and the pharisees sit in Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice" There is another little story, of a man looking for a good church to attend. He enters one and hears the preacher say......"We have left undone those things which we ought to have done, and we have done those things which we ought not to have done." The man dropped into a seat and sighed with relief....."Thank goodness, I've found my crowd at last!" Knowing it is MY crowd has its own "rewards", so... Look to your own faults, What you have done or left undone. Overlook the faults of others. In the translation of the Dhammapada by S.Radhakrishnan that I have, he says of "wisdom" that it is attained by spiritual insight or intuition rather than by observation and analysis, a result of a contemplative rather than an intellectual attitude. Radhadkrishnana, entering the realm of Greek mythology, goes on to speak of what a goddess tells young Telemachus, "Take courage. Some things you will think for yourself. Others a god will put into your heart." And that "genuine insight/wisdom is achieved by a perfect communion with the source of all truth, which is to be found, not created." Speaking of "creation", he says that the Primordial Buddha wished to become many, that the wish was prajna, divine wisdom. That the Buddha and Prajna came to be regarded as the Father and Mother of the Universe. Heady stuff indeed, and a bit far from my own small world of feeding the cat and obeying "the wife"!!!

Thomas Cleary says of these verses that we can pursue the things of this world as vanities, or we may mindfully use them constructively to beautify the world if we realise their value. Though we should..... Understand that the body Is merely the foam of a wave, The shadow of a shadow. Nevertheless, we should..... Like garlands woven from a heap of flowers, Fashion from your life as many good deeds. That the first does not negate the need for the second. Rather the idea suggests that the "good deeds" are empty of self. Cleary again.........speaks of "being in the world but not of the world", that individual liberation and enlightenment are continually "reinvested" in the world for the benefit of the people of the world.

So on to Chapter 4....... Flowers Who shall conquer this world And the world of death with all its gods? Who shall discover The shining way of dharma? You shall, even as the man Who seeks flowers Finds the most beautiful, The rarest. Understand that the body Is merely the foam of a wave, The shadow of a shadow. Snap the flower arrows of desire And then, unseen, Escape the king of death. And travel on. Death overtakes the man Who gathers flowers When with distracted mind and thirsty senses He searches vainly for happiness In the pleasures of the world. Death fetches him away As a flood carries off a sleeping village. Death overcomes him When with distracted mind and thirsty senses He gathers flowers. He will never have his fill Of the pleasures of the world. The bee gathers nectar from the flower Without marring its beauty or perfume. So let the master settle, and wander. Look to your own faults, What you have done or left undone. Overlook the faults of others. Like a lovely flower, Bright but scentless, Are the fine but empty words Of the man who does not mean what he says. Like a lovely flower, Bright and fragrant, Are the fine and truthful words Of the man who means what he says. Like garlands woven from a heap of flowers, Fashion from your life as many good deeds. The perfume of sandalwood, Rosebay or jasmine Cannot travel against the wind. But the fragrance of virtue Travels even against the wind, As far as the ends of the world. How much finer Is the fragrance of virtue Than of sandalwood, rosebay, Of the blue lotus or jasmine! The fragrance of sandalwood and rosebay Does not travel far. But the fragrance of virtue Rises to the heavens. Desire never crosses the path Of virtuous and wakeful men. Their brightness sets them free. How sweetly the lotus grows In the litter of the wayside. Its pure fragrance delights the heart. Follow the awakened And from among the blind The light of your wisdom Will shine out, purely.

Just a little background to the various concerns/questions I ask myself.......in between just living. The central doctrine of Buddhism is anatta, or "not-self", without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. The point is, at least to me, that it cannot be understood in any intellectual sense, but only experienced. Many Buddhist texts, not least the Dhammapada, can come across as a manual for "attainment", and one can find oneself seeking to groom a spiritual persona for stardom! That is not the intent of the text, obviously, and as was explained at the beginning, the Dhammapada is just a small part of a larger whole. One Theravada Bhikkhu wrote that at the moment of emancipation/enlightenment, effort falls away having reached the end of its scope. It is the scope of effort, and the paradoxes it involves, that set me on the trail of Pure Land Buddhism, the way of "Other Power." Within the Ch'an/Zen tradition, when the Sixth Patriarch was chosen, there was, according to legend (?) a competition between the applicants. Each had to write a verse to explain their understanding. One wrote..... The body is the Bodhi-tree The mind is like a clear mirror standing. Take care to wipe it all the time, Allow no grain of dust to cling to it. The winner....... The Bodhi is not like a tree, The clear mirror is nowhere standing. Fundamentally not one thing exists: Where then is a grain of dust to cling? As Thomas Merton has said, this verse is not any sort of statement of fundamental principle, not any declaration of pantheism, nor anything else of the sort, but a pointing to the most penetrating "experience". The language is not metaphysical but poetic and phenomenological. The insight is "a direct grasp of being itself, but not an intuition of the nature of being." (See the essay "Mystics and Zen Masters" in the book of the same name) All this, for me, relates to "faith" and "works", the contrast between a "self" that "accepts" an offer of salvation, as opposed to a realisation of that which IS, which can come in infinite ways. Hopefully I have not muddied the waters.

Nick, its been a while since I really gave the text a close look. I'm familiar enough with it that particular verses pop into mind, one in particular that speaks of the "sage" who, like a swan, is always flying off, leaving the lake behind. (One translation has it that they leave home after home behind.) I'm no sage, but the image is an encouragement and a perfect picture of how things are, at least for me. Once again, no attempt to identify myself with Christ, but I think of the NT verse about the Son of Man having "nowhere to lay his head." Anyway, I more than hinted at the beginning, that in effect I'm reading it with semi critical eyes, after quite a few years now seeking more to open to grace than endeavouring to "attain", in the way that the Dhammapada often implies, or even states explicitly. So the words are often very "new" to me, and in some ways, distant and even inappropriate. I'm the one with questions. All the best

An untroubled mind, No longer seeking to consider What is right and what is wrong, A mind beyond judgments, Watches and understands. Thomas Cleary speaks of these lines as the need to surrender the impulse to evil and relinquishing anticipation of reward for goodness. Leading on from this, there is the need to not be attached to any form of "spiritual attainment", which is called "affliction by the dust of religion". Cleary also mentions the Zen Proverb...."The spoils of war are lost in celebration." For me, this is at the very far end of the spectrum covered by "grace", and leads into "Love God, and do what you will" (St Augustine), which D T Suzuki relates to the Buddhist Anabhoga-Carya, or "no striving", "effortlessness". Which can be seen as a return to "innocence", the regaining of Paradise. In a discussion between Merton and Suzuki, the path is traced from an original innocence, through knowledge, and into a new innocence. The "fall" here is understood to be not rebellion (against God) but a happy fault that necessitated so great a redeemer (the "O felix culpa" of the Catholic Tradition) We shall not cease from exploration And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. (T S Eliot) ("Knowing it for the first time" seems to imply the slate is not wiped clean, nor has the suffering of experience been wasted or unnecessary - which has something to say regarding Theodicy, but I'll leave it.) P.S. The discussion between Merton and Suzuki is Part Two of Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite", an essay called "Wisdom in Emptiness".

Here is Chapter 3 Mind As the fletcher whittles And makes straight his arrows, So the master directs His straying thoughts. Like a fish out of water, Stranded on the shore, Thoughts thrash and quiver, For how can they shake off desire? They tremble, they are unsteady, They wander at their own will. It is good to control them, And to master them brings happiness. But how subtle they are, How elusive! The task is to quieten them, And by ruling them to find happiness. With single-mindedness The master quells his thoughts. He ends their wandering. Seated in the cave of the heart, He finds freedom. How can a troubled mind Understand the way? If a man is disturbed He will never be filled with knowledge. An untroubled mind, No longer seeking to consider What is right and what is wrong, A mind beyond judgments, Watches and understands. Know that the body is a fragile jar, And make a castle of your mind. In every trial Let understanding fight for you To defend what you have won. For soon the body is discarded, Then what does it feel? A useless log of wood, it lies on the ground, Then what does it know? Your worst enemy cannot harm you As much as your own thoughts, unguarded. But once mastered, No one can help you as much, Not even your father or your mother.

Mike, thanks for the encouragement.

Moving on to Chapter 2......... Wakefulness Wakefulness is the way to life. The fool sleeps As if he were already dead, But the master is awake And he lives forever. He watches. He is clear. How happy he is! For he sees that wakefulness is life. How happy he is, Following the path of the awakened. With great perseverance He meditates, seeking Freedom and happiness. So awake, reflect, watch. Work with care and attention. Live in the way And the light will grow in you. By watching and working The master makes for himself an island Which the flood cannot overwhelm. The fool is careless. But the master guards his watching. It is his most precious treasure. He never gives in to desire. He meditates. And in the strength of his resolve He discovers true happiness. He overcomes desire - And from the tower of his wisdom He looks down with dispassion Upon the sorrowing crowd. From the mountain top He looks down at those Who live close to the ground. Mindful among the mindless, Awake while others dream, Swift as the race horse He outstrips the field. By watching Indra became king of the gods. How wonderful it is to watch. How foolish to sleep. The bhikkhu who guards his mind And fears the waywardness of his thoughts Burns through every bond With the fire of his vigilance. The beggar who guards his mind And fears his own confusion Cannot fall. He has found his way to peace. For me, this is where the first questionable verses are found..... And from the tower of his wisdom He looks down with dispassion Upon the sorrowing crowd. From the mountain top He looks down at those Who live close to the ground. Mindful among the mindless, Awake while others dream, Swift as the race horse He outstrips the field. Thomas Cleary, in his commentary, contrasts this essentially "Theravadan" expression with the warnings given to those on the Mahayana path (Cleary himself speaks of the "Lesser" and the "Greater" journey)..... Buddhists on the Greater Journey are always warned to avoid becoming so intoxicated by the state described here as to lose pity and compassion for others. That proscribed intoxication is called the Deep Pit of Liberation. Cleary's overall summary of the chapter is that it focuses "particularly on describing the merits of vigilance and rebuking negligence and heedlessness. Vigilance means exercising unremitting awareness of self, truth, and reality, sloughing off the torpor of heedlessness to act practically on realities."

Just picking up one or two points...... Rivanna:- As you mentioned, there does seem to be a contrast with the Pure Land version of Buddhism – the voice in the Dhammapada is more ascetic and rigorous, almost Stoic, e.g. it says “Give up folly” as opposed to “return to the foolish self to be saved by Amida.” There is certainly, due to its origins, a monastic bias pervading the Theravada Scriptures, and therefore this would apply to the Dhammapada. Pure Land Buddhism arose in part as a reaction to the perceived elitism of a monastic based Buddhism. Although the origins of the Pure Land way are shrouded somewhat, from very early on it can be found as a form of understanding/devotion that was practiced alongside monastic based Buddhism - not least Ch'an/Zen. But in 12/13th century Japan it did self-consciously assert itself as a lay based way, very egalitarian............and devotees actually came to suffer various persecutions from the Buddhist "mainstream" authorities. Also, regarding folly, and foolish selves......the term "foolish self" could almost be called a "technical term" in Pure Land speak. For me, without going into great detail, it has no reference at all to intellectual ability (obviously... ), but refers to the fundamental/existential understanding that the perceived self, that which we assume ourselves to be, is totally incapable of resolving the contradictions of human existence in any definitive manner, that such a self is dominated by self-centred desires that can only be broken by the light of infinite compassion that "grasps us, never to abandon us". Anyway, a Pure Lander would still seek to "give up folly"......

Utilising one of the commentaries I have - this from Thomas Cleary, recognised as one of the foremost translators of various Buddhist texts, both Theravada and Mahayana. Cleary's overall summary of the chapter is..... This first chapter presents its teaching in sets of verses contrasting good and bad ways and their consequences, juxtaposing the causes of joy and sorrow. Purity of mind, self-control, moderation, freedom from rancor, accurate thought, purity of action, and practical application are praised as good ways in contrast to corruption of mind, grudge bearing, hatred, laziness, self-indulgence, false thinking, tainted action, and heedlessness. Cleary also draws upon his knowledge of Mahayana and often quotes from the multitude of Mahayana texts. His comment pertinent to the words of Tolle, and in respect of the opening verse...................The Mahaparinirvana-sutra says......"Be master of mind, do not be mastered by mind."

rivanna, the yellow robe is just a reference to the dress of a Buddhist monk (bhikkhu) so in effect the verse is merely stating that a true "disciple" of the Buddha is one who conducts themselves in the proper manner, and not determined by dress. Anyway, obviously there is a lot in the chapter, and thanks for the interest. I'll have to give what you say about Tolle some thought. I think its where you say...."but become aware of our deeper self as Presence"......that there is some sort of divide in the road. (Then we have the zen people who say that the enlightened mind IS our everyday mind.... 0 Perhaps I won't give it more thought... )

Chapter 1 Choices We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with an impure mind And trouble will follow you As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart. We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make the world. Speak or act with a pure mind And happiness will follow you As your shadow, unshakable. "Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me." Live with such thoughts and you live in hate. "Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me." Abandon such thoughts, and live in love. In this world Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible. You too shall pass away. Knowing this, how can you quarrel? How easily the wind overturns a frail tree. Seek happiness in the senses, Indulge in food and sleep, And you too will be uprooted. The wind cannot overturn a mountain. Temptation cannot touch the man Who is awake, strong and humble, Who masters himself and minds the dharma. If a man's thoughts are muddy, If he is reckless and full of deceit, How can he wear the yellow robe? Whoever is master of his own nature, Bright, clear and true, He may indeed wear the yellow robe. Mistaking the false for the true, And the true for the false, You overlook the heart And fill yourself with desire. See the false as false, The true as true. Look into your heart. Follow your nature. An unreflecting mind is a poor roof. Passion, like the rain, floods the house. But if the roof is strong, there is shelter. Whoever follows impure thoughts Suffers in this world and the next. In both worlds he suffers And how greatly When he sees the wrong he has done. But whoever follows the dharma Is joyful here and joyful there. In both worlds he rejoices And how greatly When he sees the good he has done. For great is the harvest in this world, And greater still in the next. However many holy words you read, However many you speak, What good will they do you If you do not act upon them? Are you a shepherd Who counts another man's sheep, Never sharing the way? Read as few words as you like, And speak fewer. But act upon the dharma. Give up the old ways - Passion, enmity, folly. Know the truth and find peace. Share the way.

The Dhammapada (dhamma = truth/how things are) (pada = way/path) is a relatively well known book of the Buddhist Faith, comprising 423 verses, and divided into 26 Chapters. The little book does not "stand alone" but is in fact a part of a larger text, the Khuddaka Nikaya, which itself is part of the Sutta Pitaka. The Sutta Pitaka is made up of five divisions, and represents the various discourses of the Buddha. This is all part of the Theravada Canon of Scripture, which claims to represent - and this is supported by most scholarship - the closest we can get to the words of the historical Buddha. (Theravada itself is just one of the major divisions of the Buddhist Faith) Now that the Tao thread has passed on gracefully, perhaps others would be interested in giving the various chapters of the Dhammapada a look, and if the mood/spirit takes you, post a word or two. Anyway, we'll see how it goes. Personally, I have five different translations, all of which have commentaries of varying length. I would also say that though I still choose to identify as a Buddhist, it is the Pure Land way that most appeals to me, which is the way of faith/grace - the so called "easy way". Theravada (and therefore the Dhammapada) represents the "way of the sages, where one developes wisdom and gains enlightenment". In the Pure Land we "return to the foolish self to be saved by Amida". So feel free to be critical.......

Still crazy after all these years (For context, please see my post number 35 on the Buddhist Images thread)

Thought I would pop back again, to give some sort of response to billmc's question (addressed to spiritseeker I know) As I understand it, Christinaity is a religion of "many mansions". Broadly speaking, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and the various Protestant flavours. Each seem to have varying ideas concerning the "image of God" (that we are made in) and as to whether such an "image" was totally destroyed in the "fall" or not. Also, various responses to the ideas expressed by the Latin phrase O felix culpa.......... Felix culpa is a Latin phrase that literally translated means a "blessed fault" or "fortunate fall." The Latin expression felix culpa derives from St. Augustine’s famous allusion to one unfortunate event, the Fall of Man, Adam and Eve's fall and the loss of the Garden of Eden, known theologically as the source of original sin. The phrase is sung annually in the Exsultet of the Easter Vigil: "O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem," "O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer." The medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas cited this line when he explained how the principle that "God allows evils to happen in order to bring a greater good therefrom" underlies the causal relation between original sin and the Divine Redeemer's Incarnation, thus concluding that a higher state is not inhibited by sin. The Catholic saint Ambrose also speaks of the fortunate ruin of Adam in the Garden of Eden in that his sin brought more good to humanity than if he had stayed perfectly innocent (Wikipedia) Such ideas are worthy of being reflected upon when considering any notion that we were all "initially damned". In a very modern idiom, it could be surmised that the divine wished to share "his" sense of "being" with "others", knew this would involve suffering, and was prepared "himself" to pay that price. Each of us was chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians) Given the Universalist conclusion to all this, there was never any intention to damn anyone, only the realisation that a price for "creation" must needs be paid, given the probability of the misuse of "free will"....... a price that Love itself was prepared to pay. I realise that these are only words, pointing towards things ultimately beyond us to fully comprehend. Yet worth consideration. Anyone interested in a modern representaion of some of these ideas could do worse than give this a read through.... Ken Wilber Me, I think I'll pop back to the Pure Land for a rest.......

spiritseeker, I do share your fundamental outlook. Often the idea of universalism is seen as "soft soap", as a sentimentality that does not get to grips with "free will" or the depth of evil. For me, the implication of the ultimate reconciliation of all is that I must NOW seek reconciliation with all. The option of seeing another as "beyond", totally "other", is not on offer. And as Merton has said, we are already one, we do not seek a new unity, what we must be is what we are. Free will I have spoken of elsewhere............As far as free will is concerned, it always seems odd to me that it apparently only exists for this one short sharp ambiguous life, then we must exist without it for "eternity", suffering - or enjoying - its "fruits"! One would have thought that if "free will" was so important to the divinity, it would perhaps exist in a better - and more enduring - way? (And as I have always argued, given that the Divine wills the very best for us, and given that we would indeed wish the very best for ourselves, the idea that any human being fully informed would reject the Divine is fundamentally incoherent. And if not fully informed, the free will argument itself becomes fundamentally flawed.) Again, elsewhere, on Universalism............Freud came to this conclusion about human beings, that.......it is always possible to bind together a considerable number of people in love, so long as there are other people left over to receive the manifestation of their aggressiveness. ("Civilization and Its Discontents") The main argument against Universalism seems to revolve around "free will". For me, the key comes with the words of St Augustine...."You made us for thee, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in thee". Within Time, duration, Divinity will always be seeking the "salvation" of all. And each will remain "restless" until they become aware of the infinite Love of Reality-as-is. "Eternity" , as duration, IS a long time, as you say! My hope and trust is that all will eventually find such "rest" (though I understand it more as "infinite creativity" than "rest"!) It seems to me that if "acceptance" of God's love is required, and a time limit set to such acceptance, then "hell" as eternal suffering can be a conclusion. Yet if we think more in terms of becoming aware of a Love that is eternally "given", and set no limits in time, then the Universalist conclusion seems a genuine hope. I agree with Thomas Talbott that all the Biblical ideas concerning judgement should be interpreted as redemptive ideas. Obviously, the Conservative notion of hell can never be seen as redemptive. Sorry if I seem to be advertising my views. Yet they seem relevant here, and are "cut and pasted" for that reason. All the best tariki (Derek)

spiritseeker, a very brief word to start the ball rolling. For me, too, Jesus reduced to a moral teacher pure and simple sells Christianity short. As one of my mentors once said......"if moral virtue were Christianity then Socrates was the Saviour." (William Blake) Here is a link that may be useful...... Universalist Websites