MOW

Speaking for myself I prefer Luke and Thomas. The Gospel of John is more poetic but I feel it is more a mythological than historical document. I do like it's gentle rebuking of people who take things literally ( i.e. Nicodemus wondering if he had to go back into his mother's womb to be"born again", or the women at the well wondering where Jesus' bucket was to get "living water". The Gospel of John does not mention the Last Supper , but has Jesus washing his disciples feet instead. Several UMC and UCC churches in my area have instituted foot washing, instead of or including communion. The minister or pastor washes the members feet during Holy Week(you can keep your socks on if you want ). Has anyone here participated in a foot washing ceremony? I haven't , but hear its very moving. MOW

I seem to recall an independent film from the 80's called " The Man Facing Southeast". I don't know if it's available on DVD. The central charecter was a Jesus- like figure. MOW

Thanks OA for the information on the "Straw Man" logical fallacy. I had to take logic as an ellective in college ,but that was over twenty years ago. A variation of the "Straw Man " is something I would call the "Hatchet Man " fallacy. For you who don't know, the hatchet man was a trick used by some high school basketball coaches back in the day. The hatchet man was one of the bad players on the end of the bench . In tight games the coach of the team that was behind would send "the hatchet man " into the game. He would then get in a fight with the other teams best player and the ref would throw them both out of the game. The so -called mainstream media does this often to liberal and progressive personalities. Likening people like Bill Moyers , Noam Chomsky amd Michael Moore to Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh, and then dismissing them all as "extremists" . MOW

Hi des In the UMC hymnal the words to verse 6 of Amazing Grace are "When we've been there 10,000 years bright shining as the sun : we've no less days to sing God's praise than when we'd first begun". I think it's to convey a sence of eternity. As far as whether PC can have mass appeal ,I still don't know . Could you imagine The Bishop Spong Show, or The Marcus Borg Hour? MOW

Hello Forrest, welcome to the board. This is a great but difficult topic. One problem for PC , particularly in America, is that this is a legalistic country. In America things of consequence have to be in writing. We have leases ,contracts, constitutions, etc. I think that's why fundamentalism is strong in this country. The RR goes around saying"the Bible says this, the Bible says that". Many of the truths that PCs see come from personal revelations and experience and such. We need to back up our beliefs and ideas with scripture to communicate with many people in this country, otherwise they'll just ask,"where did you get that from" ? MOW

I messed up my last post , so I thought I'd redue it . I don't know , I just don't go along with that type of reasoning. Author Daniel Quinn dealt with this issue in one of his books. Quinn often says" there is no one right way for people to live". His critics will say" isn't your saying there is no right way for people to live ,telling us the one way to live". He regards such arguments as meaningless. It's like saying "'there is no one right way to cook an egg", is telling you how to cook an egg or "there is no one right time to go to bed " is telling you when to go to bed. Even the statement " Christianity is based on the death ,burial ,and resurrection of Jesus " would be open to debate by scholars like Bart Ehrman or Burton Mack . They would probably argue that that is just the form of Christianity that for various reasons became dominant in the 4th century. MOW

That might be accurate, but it doesn't help us determine which religious claims are true or false. For instance, Christianity claims that "man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," whereas Eastern religions favor reincarnation. Which is true? Christianity is founded upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, but Islam teaches that Jesus was taken into heaven and not crucified. These are contradictory truth claims that lie at the heart of the major religions. Also, your comment "No single one corners the market on who God is or isn't" is a religious statement that must itself be subjected to your criterion of being partially false. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know, I just don't go along with that type of reasoning. Author, Daniel Quinn , dealt with this issue in one of his books. Quinn often says" there is no one right way for people to live". His critics will say " isn't your saying there is no one right way to live, telling us the one way to live". He regards such arguments as meaningless . Its like saying that there is no one right way to cook an egg, is telling you how to cook an egg, or saying there is no one right time to go to bed, is telling you when to go to bed . Even the statement " Christianity is based upon the death , burial and resurrection of Jesus " would be open to debate by scholars like Bart Ehrman or Burton Mack. They would argue that is just the form of Christianity that became dominant, for various reasons in the 4th century. MOW

OK Flow, this time you beat me to the punch. Yes , the quote was from the movie Network starring Peter Finch . They don't make movies like that anymore. The hijacking of Jesus , the Man of sorrows , who came to preach good news to the poor, is profoundly sad . But before we get too down I saw in one of the Chicago papers that a large number of Christians from Mennonite to UCC paid hommage to Charles Darwin a couple of days ago. I think it was in honor of his birthday . I don't know how well it was covered in the mainstream media but it was in the Sun Times and the New York Times. MOW

Great comments eveyone! Another thing I was thinking about was the response of Job's wife to the situation. "Do you still hold to your integrity. Curse God and Die! " But he said to her,"You speak as one of the foolish women speak. Shall we indeed accept good from God , and shall we not accept adversity" (Job 2:9-10) It's easy to dismiss Job's wife, but after all she lost all her children too. MOW

Still true, even today! What would God look like if *we* wrote the next testament? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's interesting that the 2nd century theologion/missionary , Marcion, rejected the OT altogether. One passage of the OT that bothered him was the instance where two young boys are mocking the prophet Elisha. God than allows two she-bears to come out and maul them to death (2nd Kings 2:23-24) . Marcion could not reconcile that with Jesus saying" let the children come unto me " He then developed an unusual theology of two Gods, the OT God and the "new" God presented by Jesus. His view is quite extreme and he was excomunicated and denounced as a heretic . MOW

I'd like to explore peoples thoughts on the Book of Job in the OT. Several years ago a pastor I worked for did a sermon series on it. In this story it seems Satan is more in the accuser role than the personification of evil that he became later in theological history. " Then the Lord said to Satan " Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on Earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil." Satan answers "Does Job fear God for nothing. Have you not made a hedge around him,around his household and around all that he has on every side. You have blessed the work of his hands and his possesions have increased in the land. But now stretch out your hand and touch all that he has and he will surely curse You to Your face" (Job I vs 9-12) This passage seems to ask a chicken or the egg question. Is Job good because he is blessed , or is he blessed because he is good. This question has consequences for those who advocate "prosperity gospel " and this country's own attitudes about the poor. Any thoughts on the Book of Job MOW

I was going to start a new topic, but decided to post under this topic because it relates to Frank Raj's concerns. I've noticed over the last couple of years that many Christian denominations no longer stand during the reading of the Gospel lesson. It was a tradition, when I was growing up , that you stood for the Gospel reading because these were Jesus' words. Over the years this practice has stopped as far as I can tell. My guess is that this happened because people thought that would make one part of the Bible more important than another. This then makes books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy the equal of Jesus' parables and the sermon on the mount. Over time people start to prefer those parts of the Bible that give them strict rules for behavior over the paradoxical and ironic saying of Jesus. I played piano in a conservative baptist church for three years when I was younger . They hardly ever read from the gospels of Matthew, Mark or Luke exept for the birth and crucifiction stories. The result of all of this is Jesus is simply worshipped rather than listened to. I would like to see Protestant churches standing for the Gospel lesson again. MOW

Des, I think you're right. It was " To serve Man". The actor who played Lurch on the Adams Family was the head alien. Another good one was the episode where Burgess Merideth played a man who just wanted to be left alone, so he could read. A nuclear bomb goes off and destroys all life on earth. He survives because he was in an underground bunker. He's so happy because now he can be left alone to read his books. He just happens to look down for something and his reading glasses fall off and break. He than just looks up and says"but that's not fair". MOW

This is primarily for older TCPC members. One of the local TV stations is showing reruns of The Twilight Zone. My favorite one was where these aliens come to Earth with a book titled "How to Serve Man". It turns out to be a cookbook. Anybody else have any favorites from The Twilight Zone? MOW

This year marks the 250th anniversary of Mozart's birth. Ramsey Lewis, the jazz pianist, said in an article that he was assigned Mozart's pieces when he was young . He thought, while playing them, " that's nice but is that all there is to it". Now that he is older ,he says he appreciates them so much more. Most of my piano students, who are preteens, refuse to play Mozart. They regard him as "soft" or "weak" and prefer Bach, Beethoven, or Chopin for their classical assignments. I guess they will have to get to older to appreciate him. Anyway "Happy Birthday Wolfgang" MOW

I think the Right can be pretty condescending toward "minorites" as well. The most obvious example was the ridiculous running of Alan Keyes against Barack Obama in the last senate race here in Illinois. As an African-American myself I can say I wouldn't vote for Condoleeza Rice under any circumstances. I find the assumption from some conservatives that I should vote for her because she is black as absurd as telling a white conservative that he should vote for Ralph Nader because he's white. There is an old saying "Not everybody that's of your color is of your kind, or everybody of your kind of your color." This does not just refer to skin color , but also to religion, sexual orientation , Political party etc.. MOW

Your original post is interesting Frank. Your question makes me think of an African saying "When the missionaries came they had the Bible and we had the land. When they left we had the Bible they had the land." In the minds of many Chrisitianity is linked with colonialism , assimilation and domination by the West. If I understand you correctly, you'd like to free Jesus from this and go back to his "pure" teachings . As others have said , this has been tried before . Some of have theorized that there was a Gospel of Q . Others, including myself , try to follow the Gospel of Thomas. One of the early Christian thinkers ,Marcion didn't think it was necessary to link the Jesus movement to Judaism. Others think Christianity took a wrong turn when Constantine was converted and Theodisius I made Christianity the official religion of Rome.The problem is that if none of the above things had happened ; its possible none of us today would have heard of Jesus or "Christianity". I'm kind of rambling because I have to head off to work, but I wish you luck and success on your project . MOW

Those are very good points des and mystictrek. This makes me think of a concept explored by Peter Gomes in one of his books. He was talking about the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. In one of the temptations Jesus is taken by Satan up on a hill and shown all the kingdoms of the world. Satan tells him that "these are all mine and I will give them to you , if you worship me". Many think this is a call for Jesus to become a warlock and Satan worshipper. It is much more subtle than that. Gomes states that people of faith are often frustrated because thet don't seem to have a power that the world respects. So they start to fantasize about all the good they could do if they only had the power. I suspect that some (not all) on the Christian Right thought that if they could elect an evangelical as president, they would have a Christian with the powers of the United States presidency i.e. military might , bombs, wealth ,influence ,the media etc. The next thing you know (when you fall for this temptation) is that you're doing Satan work in the world ,spreading death, disease and destruction throughout the world. It is a subtle temptation and one that those of us on the Left must be wary of as well. MOW

I think Robertson is expressing a concept called Deuteronimism. That is that your life circumstances are determined by how you are keeping God's laws (Levitcus Deuteronomy etc.). When Jesus' disciples asked him "who sinned that this man was born blind" they were expressing that concept. Jesus , of course rejected that idea. Also when Job's three "friends" tormented him, demanding that he tell them what sin he had commited, that his misfortunes had happened to him is another example. MOW

I was stuck on Lake Shore Drive for a half an hour as President Bush landed in Grant Park . The loss of Pilgrim and Lou Rawls is devastating to The Black Community here in Chicago. I'm going to try a go by the remains of the church sometime this week. MOW

I have to agree with Beach on this one. I have several ministers and pastors in my immediate and extended families. They are imperfect but sincere people of faith who try to witness to the Realm of God to best of their abilities. I think that many Christians attend small struggling churches of 50 or 60 doing the best they can with limited monetary resources. In spite of soaring utility and heating costs (especially this Winter) they try to be there for each other. This has been my experience with the churches I have served as a musician. The only TV show that I think showed some of the reality of church life was The Vicar of Dibley on PBS. Sure there were some exagerations for comedic and entertainment value but the depictions of church finance meetings were right on the money. MOW

In an earlier post I mentioned the phrase " raise my Ebeneezer" which is found in the hymn " Come thou fount of every blessing" This refers to a series of epic battles between Israel and the Philistines as recorded in 1 Samuel chapters 4 thru 7. In the final battle Samuel is sacrificing a lamb to God while the Philistines are attacking. God than caused loud thunder that confused the Philistines, and the Israelites were able to drive them from the land. "Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen and called its name Ebeneezer saying 'thus far the lord has helped us' (1 Samuel chapter7 verse 12 NKJV ) MOW

OK I had to google it. "Waltzing Matilda" is a song about a tramp who steals a sheep while he's boiling water. He does this while on the land of a "squatter". When the troopers come he jumps into a stream rather than be arrested by the police . His ghost is still heard by the stream singing " you'll go a waltzing matilda with me" . As near as I can tell the phrase "waltzing matilda" seems to mean to go on a journey. The song seems to have an anti-authoritarian theme since the tramp would rather jump into the stream than be arrested by the police. MOW

As a church musician in the UMC for over 25 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on falling in love with the melody more than the words. The composer Felix Mendelssohn once said that, for him, music conveys meaning far better than words in many cases. In the secular arena ,few of us know what Auld lang Syne means , but the music conveys images of things ending and going on to something new. The Australian song "Waltzing Matilda" is another example of a fun song to sing, but few people know what the heck they're singing about . In the sacred arena the hymn "Come thou Fount of every blessing " is another example of a beloved melody, but the words are enigmatic for contemporary Christians. I still don't know whar "raising my Ebeneezer". means. In a sunday school class I was in , when I was a child , one of the kids asked the teacher if we could sing that song about "Andy". The teacher said "Andy, what song is that" ? The student said" you know, "Andy walks with me Andy talks with me ....." MOW

Des, doesn't that passage in Ecclesiates sound like Yin and Yang ? A time to be born and a time to die A time to weep and a time to laugh A time to keep silence and a time to speak A time of war and a time of peace etc. It's also interesting to me that one of the generals before the Irag war started , tried to use Ecc. as a biblical justication. He said something like "even the Bible says sometimes there is a time "for" war. In my Bible ( I use the New King James Version) the phrase is " a time "of" war and a time of peace. I think that is a subtle but important difference. MOW