MOW

I wasn't sure where to put this, so I put it in the same section as the thread on meditation. I was wondering if anyone here has ever tried fasting? Many years ago I tried a Ramadan like fast during Lent i.e. not eating any solid food until after sundown. I only lasted two days. I don't think I was mentally prepared. My background is UMC and I know John Wesley practiced fasting. MOW

I used to do some meditation exercises back in the 70s and 80s. I don't know why but I just don't do it that much anymore. Being a hand drummer I do participate in drum circles from time to time. MOW

My exposure to JS scholarship is very limited . I've read" Honest to Jesus" by Funk and the Gospel of Q by Mack, so I'm no expert. My concern with Progressive Christianity is how do we respond to the wounded? What do we have to offer those addicted to meth or crack, the person whose daughter commited suicide, the 58 year old man who just got laid off and only knows how to do one thing? All this scholarship is great, but if your mother dies, or any of the events I mentioned above happened, you're going to want more from your religion. Discussions about the Mosaic authorship of Pentatuach, the three levels of the Gospel of Q, or the Synoptic Problem are fine but sometimes people want to feel something. Lord knows I don't want religion to be an opiate of the people (or an amphetimine ). But what do we have to offer ordinary people in these situations? MOW

I was 7 years old when the Sox were in the world series the last time. Does anybody else in the Chicago area remember that ? MOW

> Yes I do find it offensive that Gandhi,the Dali Lama etc. are supposedly going straight to hell. But then I don't believe in hell as a physical site either. >des I don't believe in hell as a physical site either but this makes me think of some alternative views of hell. You might recall a Twilight Zone episode where a petty thief dies and thinks at first that he is in heaven. He gets everything he wants, always wins at poker,has his pick of seemingly beautiful women etc. After awhile he runs out of things to do and is tired of everything going his way . Finally when he's about go insane with the predictability of everything he tells what he thinks is his guardian angel that he's sick of heaven and wants to go the other place. The "angel" then replies" "what makes you think you're in heaven, this is the other place!" MOW

My mistake ( I'm too old to say" my bad"), Bonhoeffer often visited the African American Methodist church in Harlem . He also collected a large number of African-American spirituals which he took back to Germany. MOW

MOW, my apologies, I wasn't trying to draw an analogy between the evils of racial superiority theories and the goals of TCPC, but rather to draw the similarities in source material (although divergent ends) of heterodox/personalised versions of Christianity which eschew the Church which Christ established and legitimate authority therein. My point being that neither leads to good, Holy places. As a side point, you didn't interact with the main thrust of my argument at all. That being, principally, that Naziism has nothing more than lip service to do with Christianity. jamesAMDG jamesAMDG.blogspot.com Victory in the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The apology is certainly accepted James in the spirit of Christian brotherhood. In regard to the Nazi issue I believe it was D Bonhoeffer ,a Christian, who was frustrated with the leadership of the Christian church in Germany. As the Nazi's rose to power they looked the other way. Bonhoeffer had visited Dr King's church in Harlem and thought he could bring that kind of activism to Germany. He was finally executed by the Nazi's. I know you might think that progressives are weakening the faith by questioning authority and by believing that Christianity is not the only way to God. Speaking only for myself I think we do this not out of narcissism but because of reason and experience.( My Methodism is showing here). Dr King was a Christian , but he was greatly influenced by Mohandes Ghandi , a Hindu. Buddhist monks visit Dr Kings gravesite on his birthday. It would be difficult for many to believe that Dr King and Dietrich Bonhoeffer get to go to heaven because they are Christians but Mohandes Ghandi would have to be cast into Hell because technically he was not "saved" . MOW

I 'm sorry des . I meant TCPC's MOW

I find it quite repugnent your likening TCPR's to Nazi's. I am a black man and hardly a Nazi. My people were butalized by men who could go to church in the morning and rape slave girls at night. Terrorized by people who could go to church in the morning and lynch and burn black men, often on the same day, even taking pictures of it like they were at picnic or at a ball game. One priest here in Chicago was radicalized in his youth by watching the same Catholics who said the rosary, and praying to the saints and Mary ,hurling the N word, and theatening Dr King's life when he came here to Chicago. In the spiritual "Heaven Heaven" the slaves warned us that " everybody talkin' 'bout heaven aint goin there" . MOW

I was recently in a bookstore and was skimming through a yoga magazine. One of the articles in the magazine was talking about Zen concepts in The Wizard of OZ. It was interesting and kind of funny. It talked about Dorothy's desperate attempts to get home when the means of getting home were right under her feet. The Tin Man, the Scarecrow and the Cowardly Lion desired attributes that they already possessed. The two wicked witches were both destroyed by accidents. The fearsome Wizard of OZ was a fraud who was exposed by an animal. I was wondering if there are similarities with the so called Prodigal Son parable of Jesus. Both the Prodigal Son and Dorothy go searching for fulfillment outside there place of origin but come to realize that everything was right where they started. However they had to leave there homes to discover this. Jesus makes this clear in his discription of the older brother who stayed at his father's house.( Btw the New Revised Standard Version calls this parable "The Prodigal Son and his Brother"). The brother who stayed is just as lost as the brother who left. He doesn't know what his relationship with his father is. He sees no joy in where he is because he never left. I have to admit to you that I have more in common with the brother who remained than with the one who left. Any thoughts? MOW

That's very true. In his book "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" K. Leong states that he left the church at 16 to find the Tao, and at age 40 he realized he could have found the Tao in Jesus. MOW

" No one is immune from being a mouthpiece for the truth once in a while " I believe that that is exactly what lily and des are saying. lts just that the "truth' is not only spoken by Christians. To go back to the subject of music it's interesting that one of our greatest hymn writers Ralph Vaughn Williams was an atheist who didn't believe in God at all, yet he wrote some of the best hymns ever. "For All the Saints", Ye Watchers and ye Holy Ones,"I Sing the Almighty Power of God", " The Call" were all written by Vaughn Williams. Peter Tschaikowski was a homosexual who gave the world some of the greatest music ever. I have a friend who feels that Tschaikowski was at times a better composer than Beethoven. Its amusing to watch flag waving conservatives jumping up and down on the the 4th of July when his 1812 overture is played. Here's music written by a Russian homosexual using the the French national anthem and its become an American tradition to play it on the 4th of July. Thinking about these two men brings to mind a quote form the late Sidney Harris, who used to write for the Sun Times here in Chicago. " Maybe its not if you believe in God but, that God believes in you" He wrote that in reference to Bertrand Russell but I think it can apply to Vaughn Williams and Tschaikowski . MOW

Great Stuff! Jesus said one had to become as a child to enter The Kingdom of God. One of the main reasons for my acceptance and admiration of Jesus was his love of children, even holding them up as spiritual role models. I've heard that during Jesus' time children were regarded as property, especially the girls. As far as anyone knows did any other teacher of the ancient world hold children in such high regard ? I was just wondering. MOW

Great posts! I agree with most everything I've read. Fred's comment about church being so much like our everyday lives to the point of being irrelevent is absolutely right. Those of you in the Chicago area know of a huge megachurch in the suburbs where there are (I believe) atm machines, restaurants and Starbucks. I haven't been there but that's what I've heard. DIRECTIONS FOR SINGING 4 Sing lustily and with good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead,or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength . Be no more afraid of your voice now nor more ashamed of its being heard , than when you sang the songs of Satan. 5 Sing modestly . Do not bawl so as to be heard above or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together so as to make one clear, melodious sound. . John Wesley 1761 To me congregatioal hymn singing is so important , whether Catholic or Protestant, conservative or liberal, because its the one time in the service where there are no perfomers or audience , but all are one. MOW

I saw this title in a bookstore recently. I didn't purchase the book but the title got me thinking about a few experiences I 've heard about and experienced. My brother who is of UMC backgound attended an Catholic service a number of years ago. The first hymn was "Praise to the Lord the almighty" a standard that most Christians would know. He began singing but soon realized that no one else in the congregation really was, so he stopped. In the church( UMC) where I was organist for many years there was a mother and daughter who had attended for many years. The mother died a few years back and the funeral was at the Methodist church. It just so happened that most of the mother's friends were Catholic and the funeral was held during the day so most of the UMC members were unable to attend. The pastor picked hymns she felt everyone would know and were favorites of the deceased i.e "Amazing Grace," "Blessed Assurance' etc. Well I heard no one but myself since most of the UMC members were sitting up front. I also noticed that not only were the Catholics not singing ,they didn't even take the hymnals from the music rack. They were just standing facing the front of the sanctuary. One of my choir members told me of a friend who attended an ecumenical service and sang the hymns like he always did. After the service a nun came up to him and asked "son what protestant church do you attend?". As a progressive Christian I respect all faiths but I was wondering is the title of that book true (Why Catholics Don't Sing),and if so is there a reason for it ? MOW

Sorry to hear about his passing Although I've never been a fundamentalist, my first exposure to alternative theories for the origins of Christianity was the Gospel of Q by Burton Mack. I was originally turned off by what I felt( in my opinion) was his dry and academic writing style . He also continually refered to Christianity as myth which at first I had issues with. A year later I read "Honest to Jesus" and it was a revelation to me and helped me better understand Mr Burton's Gospel of Q book. I liked Mr Funk idea that Orthopraxy(right practice) maybe more important than Orthodoxy(right belief) in the final analysis. Again sorry to hear about his passing. MOW

Thank you Flow for responding to my post Again I don't think Jesus is attempting to perform a sex change operation , I think these things are totally symbolic. One could argue why didn't Jesus suggest that men become women to enter the Kingdom of God. He sort of did in Matthew 19:12. "And there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God". I'm sure some of you know that the early church father Origen (185-254) actually had himself castrated to follow this scripture(talk about taking the Bible literally!!). I was wondering guys if the problem might be the English language itself in being translated from Eastern languages. I remember reading a rather amusing incident in a book . A computer was programmed to translate from English to Russian and back to English It was told to translate the phrase "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" and it came back "The vodka is agreeable but the meat is too tender" MOW

In light of saying 114 I got to thinking about something else. Some comentators on this saying says it has something to do with masculine and feminine aspects of spirituality and that we're usually deficient in one or the other. I've been a church musician for over 30 years and I usually have to play for the annual Christmas pageant. It's always interesting to me that the boys are happy to play the Magi or the shepherds but never the angels. Somewhere somehow from Mother Culture they have the idea that angels are feminine. You can talk about Gabriel and Michael to you're blue in the face but they're not playing no angels. Even though Gabriel and Michael have masculine names, in paintings they seem to have female features. Satan the fallen angel is almost always portrayed as male. Just wondering MOW

I've been away for awhile and thought I'd post something. You seem to be discussing saying 114 "Simon Peter said to them" Let Mary leave us because women are not worthy of life.' Jesus said, "look I shall lead her so that I can make her male in order that she also may become a living sprit resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of God " I don't think this has anything to do with physical gender identification. In Paul's Galatians reference where he says we're neither male or female in Christ Jesus he prefaces it by calling his audience "Son's of the Father" The later revised standard versions change that to more modern "children of the Father". This saying brings to mind a letter I read in an advice column in a Chicago newspaper. The letter was written by a man praising his wife. When they first married he was a successful businessman and she was a pretty, fragile trophy wife. He grew disgusted with her because all she seemed to want to do is shop spend money and never save. As time went on he considered divorce. As fate would have it he suffered a massive stroke and was totally disabled . He was sure she would leave him. To his amazement she took on the breadwinner (male ) role taking care of him and their children,working a full time job and even changing his diapers as he could no longer use the bathroom unassisted. In light of saying 114 I wonder what that man and his wife would say about "male" and "female" spiritual roles. MOW

I believe some of our members are in the Louisiana and Mississippi areas. If you are able can you tell us how you are doing? MOW

After reading some of the more recent posts I got to imagining what Christianity might be like if it had been Matthew ,Mark, Luke, and Thomas. It probably would be much smaller like Jainism. It might not even be called Christianity. It would be difficult to link the Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas with the Christ of Faith envisioned by Paul. In fact modern Christianity is difficult to imagine without the Gospel of John. There would be no" In the beginning was the Word, no I am the living bread which came down from heaven(which might mean no Communion),no Woman at the well, no Nicodemus, no born again Christians( OK no snide remarks ) . However The Gospel of John does pose some problems. The " no one comes to the Father but by me " is problematic I'm sure for progressives , Non-Christians and indigenous peoples. There is also the problem of perceived anti -semitism. In one of his books Peter Gomes mentions how a choral conducting friend of his needed singers for a performence of Bach"s St John's Passion. The conductor hired a young Jewish singer to help out the soprano section. Gomes relates that the girl told him that during the performance she was in tears. She felt conflicted. Bach's music was so beautiful but she was singing these horrible things about herself. MOW

I was born on the southside and am proudly still here. Can't beat the art scene and restaurants The annual African Festival of the Arts is next week and I've never missed one in 15 years . MOW

Wow! I 've really enjoyed the replies I've read. I can't say I've understood everything but I'm trying( They don't talk like this in Bible class). I seem to get the idea from some of the posts that one person can be both the assassin and the powerful man at the same time In this way Jesus' parables can be like dreams where the dreamer is all the charecters in the dream. The thing I liked about the Thomas Gospel was the idea that the Kingdom of God (UCCers prefer Realm of God) seems to be a state of awareness rather than place. A state of awareness that's always present and not some place you go to when you die or some utopian kingdom that you sit around and wait for. The statement Jesus makes at the beginning of the Gospel that if they tell you it's in the sky the birds will get there first or if they say its in the sea the fish will get there first was priceless to me. BTW a man named John Crossan did the introduction to the version of the book I have . Its OK but toward the end of it he says that celibacy and aceticism are required to find the primorial state according to the Thomas Gospel . I don't think it says that at all and I don't know where he got that idea. MOW

I'm a relatively new member here and thought I'd try a new post. A couple of years ago I became aquainted with the Gospel of Thomas. As an African-American UMCer( now UCCer) growing up I had never heard of it. One Sunday a guest layspeaker mentioned it as the scripture for that day was the "Doubting Thomas" story in the Gospel of John . She felt that Thomas got a bad rap and that many Christians regard him as only a little higher than Judas Iscariot. She also mentioned that like John he also has a Gospel in his name that was not included in the "official" canon. So after church I stopped at Borders and picked up a copy and blown away by it. So many of the concepts and ideas that Jesus spoke in it I'd alwas felt. Anyway the reason for the post is I 've always been stumped by the parable of the assassin in the Gospel of Thomas i.e Jesus likens the Kingdom of God to a man who wants to kill a much more powerful man so he draws his sword in his house and drives it into a wall and when he is able to do this he knows his hand is strong enough and he kills the powerful man. I think it might comparable to the parable about binding the strong man but I'm not sure. Any ideas? MOW

Another good book to try(in addition to ice cream) is " The Zen Teachings of Jesus" by K Leong. Listening to music is always a good idea,especially when you get tired. World music may be good. You also might try music by Alan Hovhaness. It's not everyone's cup of tea but some of it is quite beautiful as he tries to combine East and West. MOW