AnnieG

Why churches grow or shrink, even within a denomination, seems a complex issue. The Unitarians produce a magazine, 'UUWorld' and a regular feature is an article on a growing congregation. Winter 2012 profiles a church in Bedford, Mass. and identifies the following: *a 'preacher who holds listeners spellbound' *creativity, including elements of comedy, eg giant remote-controlled clownfish, but also a connection to 'the ancient stream of things' *community action and activity eg a bus service from a retirement home to church services of any denomination *renovation of church facilities through member donations 'instilled pride...and an ambition to do greater things' *making a partner church in Transylvania has led to many 'pilgrimages' between the two countries *four choirs *making an effort to welcome newcomers

The water ritual apparently takes place but once a year, it's curious that we both stumbled upon it. I brought (virtual) rainwater from our roof. Yes, and UU churches may be a more wholesome hangout for 'new age spirtualists' than the local crystal shop:) Still, I've found plenty to think about in my brief contact with UU. I do with agree with your comment about attachment to the old language. Initially it was a relief to join in a service with no reference to the Bible / Jesus. On second thoughts, I miss these references, and the rousing Presbyterian hymns of my youth.

I for one have just started attending a UU church. I didn't choose it for the denomination, but because the website mentions the word progressive and claimed to have a children's programme (though it wasn't in evidence the two times I've been), and the location is fairly accessible to me. The meeting was particularly small the first time, as many members were on holiday. That was fine by me, a gentle introduction where I felt the confidence to speak out (the leader invited discussion during the service.) Today was interesting - a 'water ritual' was held where people brought water from a place meaningful to them and added it to a communal container, while explaining their choice. Although people are trickling in rather than rushing in hoards, the building has held regular services since opening in 1901. Perhaps the crowds don't rush in because more people are attracted by the promise of salvation in more traditional churches, or by the chance to take a rest wherever they want?

I'm back in NZ , great to be home but wading through all the stuff packed away for 3 years is hard work. Happy to glance at the boards for the first time in an age!

Wow, great news!!

Hi Grace I like the things / people you identify with! I really appreciate this site and the chance to say how I feel without feeling condemned - I think you will like it too. Annie

Hello Indigeek Your church experience sounds terrible! There are some interesting discussions going on here, hope you join in. Annie

As Paul points out, most of us here can be classified as WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, & Democratic)('rich' being relative:) ). I think the same can be said for the originators of and influential thinkers in PC. The respect for individual differences in beliefs we see here looks to be part of our WEIRDness. WEIRD missionaries ,did their part in spreading Christianity to other cultures; I wonder how much this will be true for PC WIERDos.

Welcome, dusktilldawn. " I'm a little disappointed that key areas of the board are off-limits to those who don't support the 8 points. Am I alone in seeing a certain irony in stating tolerance and freedom from dogma as a list of numbered points which are then used to separate the "in" group from the "out" group. " I see your point, and have noticed that the 'restricted areas' are among the quietest on the site. Nevertheless, as one who isn't agreement with all of the 8 points, I still find this a welcoming place. ."Religion is nearly always see as a question of what factual claims one believes in, with the emphasis very much on the existence/nonexistence of God" This seems to be a trend within Christianity as well as atheism; maybe it has something to do with the plurality of religious choices around and the power of evidence-based scientific thinking outside religion?

Thanks for adding this, Myron. I was having breakfast when I heard the news, and resolved to try to avoid watching news programs while eating in future. 'Looking for the helpers' is a good way of coping with such tragedies. By the way, 'Kissing Fish' is a title that attracted me, I'm going to look that up too.

Recently a proposal to permit women to become bishops in England's Anglican church narrowly failed to gain the 2/3 majority required to pass it (it was passed by clergy, but not by lay people eligible to vote.) I'm hoping women members in particular will respond to this thread. How does the historical (and in places, current) treatment of women in the church affect you? Is it more difficult for females to identify as 'Christian'? Can you recommend any books / resources on these themes? I know Jesus had and has dedicated women followers, and it's a sad irony his message has been distorted and used in the preservation of power. I just feel that as a woman I am also in need of female role models; if I was male it could be just that much easier to call myself /think of myself as 'Christian'.

Hello Carolyn Good to hear from you again. PC =Progressive Christianity. Does Sc = Scotland? I'm from NZ, but most of my ancestors were Scottish. I'd like to know more about the country I've never been to. I haven't read the article by Spong, but it makes sense to me. Fortunately my hometown, where I am returning soon, has a few progressive churches to choose from. You do have some challenges in front of you. I can relate to the difficulty of having a partner who has the "belief that things in the world are bad and only going to get worse". I have great respect for women with large families; I have two young children myself and think they keep my hands full. I hope your classes are enjoyable. If you'd like to chat more personally, please click on my picture and you can send a Private Message. Annie

Tariki, This 'insanity' could bring such a sane world into being.. I'm glad you've got your computer problems sorted out.

Rivanna Thanks for reopening this thread. There are some real treasures here. I've started re-reading Middlemarch, by George Eliot. "Dorothea knew many passages of Pascal's Pensees and of Jeremy Taylor by heart; and to her the destinies of mankind, seen by the light of Christianity, made the solicitudes of feminine fashion appear an occupation for Bedlam."

Sometimes changing beliefs goes along with moving into different social groups that we want to fit into, eg when I started uni I was more impressed by lecturers' views than by those of the minister of the conservative church I had attended for many years.

I was interested in the theory (by Mark Leary) that self-esteem is not of evolutionary value in itself, but makes sense as a drive to make others include and trust us. It brings to mind the weight of the average teenagers' desire to fit in. School shoes were a dilemma for me; the trendy groups had the expensive brand (Trex) but I wasn't in an 'in' group, so after persuading my Mom to buy me Trex I didn't want to wear them, and found my sister's old ones instead..

Yes, if only all the groups we are part of could live up to this understanding of 'community'. Coming up against this is the instinct for self protection; the desire for power; the belief in individual rights and the different groups we belong to which may have conflicting ideas. This said, the moments when common purpose is recognised can be powerful, eg in the ritual of communion/ eucharist.

Here's a quote that spoke to me from War and Peace, a book I also highly recommend. Pierre has been captured by French soldiers. "Ha-ha-ha!" laughed Pierre. And he said aloud to himself: "The soldier did not let me pass. They took me and shut me up. They hold me captive. What, me? Me? My immortal soul? Ha-ha-ha! Ha-ha-ha!..." and he laughed till tears started to his eyes.

George, Haidt does seem convincing to me, but I admit to knowing next to nothing about conflicting theories / studies in this area.

Jonny, I like the bus tour of NZ town!

Myron, Do you find Haidt's arguments convincing (in this chapter, and generally)? Is there anything you disagree with?

Hello Lisa I saw your comment on MinstrelMansWife's intro page. I can relate to the feeling of emptiness when talking to fundamentalist friends or family; in my case I seem to rarely forget our division by belief. Of course, though, we do have a common humanity, and a common history (esp. in the case of family) , while my friends have that something special that drew me to them as people. Hope to hear more from you Annie

Jonny, Thanks, F of the C were really just a name to me, I'm going to check them out.

Annie, quoting Haidt on affect Affect: “small flashes of positive or negative feeling that prepare us to approach or avoid something.” [Affect equates to Haidt’s ‘elephant’; thinking is the ‘rider.’] Haidt's primary source in this area appears to be psychologist Wilhem Wundt (1907/1896)

Yes, point taken. I was using 'judgment' to mean 'affect,' but I can see it wasn't a particularly precise choice.