Inthedark

I agree Hollis we have come a long way and we do look back with rose tinted glasses. Having said that, progress isn't all smooth sailing by any stretch either. We still have a patriarchal society even in this modern age where men are paid more than women for the same work, there is an elite class of wealthy and then the rest of us, the same can be said of an elite class of countries as well, holding power and influence over countries who are unable to break the chains holding them in poverty. The vast worldwide boom in population has meant a greater pressure on resources and as the new god called "Capitalism" is worshipped with consumerism, more and more pressure is placed upon the Earth Mother we walk on. I think we have lost some of our ancient spirituality, our connection with nature and the planet. We are currently obsessed with the "he who dies with the most stuff wins" mentality, all about self. I think some of the points raised in this thread so far are valid when they point to a loss of community. As I said above, only 35 years ago I played outside on the street, with other kids doing the same. I would roam in the woods, rock climb, explore caves, fish, ride my bike for miles on end until I was lost, all without adult supervision or them even knowing where I was half the time. As long as I turned up for tea, nobody worried. This was a fantastic childhood which unfortunately kids today, including mine, do not have. There are no more paedophiles in the community today than there were back then but that is what modern parents perceive as being on every street corner. The children are no more or less likely to be abducted, kidnapped, robbed, beaten up or lead astray any more so than they were 35 years ago and yet our perception is that they can't leave the house without an adult. What has happened? Why the massive shift in perception which has so seriously affected how we bring up our children and what are the consequences going to be? Technology, progress and access to a rampant media are part of the reason. So yes we live longer and have better education. Still there is worldwide poverty and still there is slavery, we don't calll it slavery any more but that is what it is. The masses doing without more so the elite few can live in luxury. This is not what Jesus had in mind when he tried to introduce to people a new way of thinking - not patriarchal, not about heirarchy, not about the self but about the Kingdom of God here on earth. Now, where did I put my i-phone, I need to check my stocks... ;-)

I am no expert but of course I have an opnion! My opinion is that we are better off in far many respects with regard to the development of technology and increased levels of education, but possibly worse off spiritually and socially for a number of reasons. The loss of spirituality in that which is the post enlightenment mechanistic Newtonian world view has left a void that science cannot fill. This together with the breakdown of community as we seem to have less and less to do with our immediate neighbours in our street where we live, whilst at the same time embracing technologies which enable a more superficial social interaction with relative strangers, where little or no emotional investment is required. There are many many reasons for the shift from community to the family in isolation in a community, but all the same, it seems to be happening more and more, and to a greater extent. I used to play in the street with neighbours, know all the adults in the street and they all knew me. This shared "parenting" was a natural consequence of knowing your neighbours and a real community. Today, you'd be lucky if a parent would allow their kid outside to play on their own, without a cell phone or a minder. We've all gone mad! Paul

We are our only frame of reference for thinking about the Divine so I suppose this is a natural consequence. I would argue that Native Americans prior to the arrival of settlers could be an example of people living in small groups, in tune with themselves and their environment (re. the Earth Mother post I mentioned previously). Paul

I've been reading Reclaiming Spirituality by Diarmud O Murchu and he has a chapter devoted to this topic, chapter 7 - Reclaiming the Femanine Heart. His position is that we had a much more even playing field in the 70,000 years prior to montheism and the patriarchal religions. In that rather lengthy peiord prior to the agricultural revolution and subsequent development of monotheism, Earth Mother was the predominant philosophy/religion and our existence related to nature and the animals we shared the planet with, not our need to have power and control over these things as has been witnessed through patriarchal religion. The need for power and control is a male streak relating to our evolutionary drives, however it is quite destructive on a large scale without some parameters. Diarmud quotes Caitlin Matthews as saying: "We in the West are haunted by the loss of our Mother". Paul

I work with some of the criminal people you have discussed in this thread. As others have pointed out, homosexuality has nothing to do with the others in the list who partake in criminal offending. There are usually mitigating circumstances in why a person chooses to abuse children, or rape or commit other crimes; things that have happened to them in their past at a critical time in their development, which allow them to behave without remorse in their partular "normalised" behaviour. A child abuser I dealt with some years ago was repeatedly raped by his father every other night as a young boy, always together with violence. The boy grew up to do the same, to seek out opportunities to act out what happened to him and he did this through a church group. The investigation uncovered that over a 5 year period he sodomised many young children. Most parents were unaware but some did become aware and chose to pray for him together with him rather than report the abuse. Imagine how their son felt when he gets the courage to reveal the offending that has taken place against him and they do nothing except pray, and so the systematic sodomy continued night after night. I'm getting off track... I suppose my point is the people who commit these types of crimes are damaged, possibly beyond repair with regard to right thinking. They can try to control their feelings if given the right tools to do so but they may "fall off the wagon" on occasion. When they do so, lives are destroyed as a consequence. They will seek out opportunity to offend or at least fantasise about offending, so church groups, scouts, youth groups are attractive places for certain people with particular interests. There is a trust that comes with being with such organisations, which is not earned but tends to be given simply by association with that organisation. There are signs for others to see if their eyes are open to the signs. These people are in our community whether you like it or not and they always have been. Be smart as to risky situations but be Christian in your values I suppose is what I am saying. If you are aware of their feelings and they are trying to control that side of them, support them. What other choice do we have? People are still people. Just be smart about it. I know of at least one male in my congregation who has sexual fabtasies about young children. He is married with a couple of kids and a puppeteer amongst other things. I simply manage situations where my kids are at church in whatever environment so that I know there is no oppportunity for him to offend - he has not offended that I know of, simply had the thoughts. Just be kind and be smart. I'm rambling again. Regards Paul

Innocence, sinner, husband, father, searcher, searching....

I think if a movie speaks to you personally in PC terms George, then it qualifies for you, whatever the movie. Regards Paul

Muse away. More babies = more child indocterination into your faith at an early age, which in turn will mean more adults in your church. I think it might be as basic as that. Breeding a bigger church with no need to convince free thinking adults of your way because they were brought up in it. Regards Paul

Another classic you can't go passed is of course Mel Brooks' History of The World Part 1. Very funny indeed....not sure about serious message, but funny... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TAtRCJIqnk&feature=fvwrel Regards Paul

Surely the Monty Python movies deserve a mention. A few years ahead of their time and extremely controversial in their day was The Life of Brian, and my personal favourite was the Quest for the Holy Grail. I believe they had a poke at organised religion once or twice in the Meaning of Life as well. Humour is good at getting people to think about serious issues isn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVHhg67RVd4&feature=player_embedded Regards Paul

Regardless of your belief, you have to admire the goal of mysticism. For me personally, it rings true and tries to offer us a key to finding out who we really are by trying to put into words that which cannot be put into words. Tricky indeed. Paul

Does Christianity have any real meaning? Yes and no, depending on who you ask and in what context. For me it has been a process, working out what works for me. Currently I see Jesus Christ as the face of the Divine, the One consciousness, the comprehensible face of God and the conduit to God who is otherwise unknowable. Of course my Jesus has some attributes that I have and as such is relevant to me, because he is MY Jesus "When you look into the deep well for Jesus, you see yourself". In this way Christianity has meaning for me allegorically. Before, it was just a bunch of stories which if I am honest, never resonated with me as the truth. Now, it makes sense to me as I know I have a spark of the divine in me and through Christ I can eventually be at peace, in that One consciousness. Am I talking in riddles to myself again?

Very well expressed Jenell. Thanks for that.

I feel that Jesus the man did not die for our sins. He died for his beliefs, having lived by his own standards in a time that such behaviour was not tolerated by authorities. Jesus Christ the supernatural divine being came sometime after, as part history/part myth, designed to tie in a number of differing world views at the time of writing. Along with that written history/myth came all the confusing stuff, which cannot be explained to anyones satisfaction without it simply being put to one side and parked as "God stuff we don't get". It is far more an inspiring story when the real Jesus dies on the cross for his beliefs, having preached some remarkably un church like sermons throughout his short ministry. There is sacrifice when a real human gives his life for change. There is no sacrifice when a divine being performs a play, pretends to die, knowing he is divine and will live forever in any case. I like Jesus, not so much Jesus Christ.

There are ethics at play here and the problem to me seems to be the stance taken by the Catholic Church is one using the perception of God's authority by association when it suits them to do so. How can the church argue this archaic stance, which on the face of it appears to about numbers, and claim it is purely about interfering with God's will? It raises many issues: 1. It makes a mockery of God and renders him powerless. 2. It interferes with our ability to medically look after ourselves - HIV in Africa, STD's, low income families expanding beyond their means causing pressures on families which have consequences? 3. On what authority does the church say sex is purely for reproduction not pleasure? God gave women a clitoris, an organ designed purely for pleasure didn't he? What healthy couples in loving relationships do to maintain their love and intimacy, reinforce their bonds. That is bad how? 4. Based on the factors considered by the church on this topic, how can we visit doctors for medical care? Use a hearing aid? Wear clothes? The whole thing seems a little bit silly to me in this day and age. ?

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to a better understanding of ourselves. Carl Jung