PaulS

I'm not looking for excuses for Trump, just pointing out that I don't buy the hype that he has outperformed all other Presidents in his first 6 months and that the facts (not opinions) demonstrate he has not outperformed. The US is not alone with fear-mongering politicians demonising the poor and helpless. Unfortunately many Australians have also been sucked into believing all our ills can be blamed on immigrants. I agree that the way they are being treated is abysmal.

I see how politics can be so much like religion where people 'believe' their version of events and adjust accordingly. Trump said he was going to build a physical wall and that Mexico would pay for it. That has not happened. Immigration may well be down (as certainly Trump's rhetoric would have an effect on potential migrants) but he has not built the wall which he promised. But I never expected him to - it was a fear tactic to win votes. Trump doesn't think the number of bills he has passed is a irrelevant statistic as he has quoted it a number of times as demonstration of how much he has achieved as President. As you don't know the number of bills passed then clearly your assessment of the accuracy of my fact doesn't count for much. Not sure what evidence you use that Obamacare is 'failing rapidly' (sounds more like bias to me) but its death knell has been sounded by Trump and Tuesday's vote by the Senate to debate the bill is the beginning of the end. Although if it is not revoked then you have another broken Trump promise. No doubt we are seeing the end of an era with US economic dominance beginning to pale against the rise of China and indeed the Eurozone. However there is much that can be done about it - just not by this President I expect.

Respectfully or not, those are the facts Burl. No wall, because Trump can't get Congress to approve/fund. He successfully revoked 'Obamacare' (not something to be proud of in my book). He's only passed 3 more bills that Obama in his first 6 months. Do you refute any of these facts? As for the 'big issues', Trump's protectionism will only endanger the US further against the economic threats developing in the Eurasian Economic Zone. No country is an island in the world these days and the US will learn this lesson the hard way if it continues down this road of protectionism. It simply isn't viable.

I would suggest he was more than 'overly ambitious' as he knew people would buy his exaggerated promises even though he knew he actually couldn't influence them. The Great Wall of Mexico is an example - no progress made on this big ticket item whatsoever. Why? Because Trump doesn't have the ability to get the law passed through Congress. You may think it was a well intended promise - I think he was cashing in on fear to win votes. His one big ticket item that he was successful in was removing health cover from 20+million Americans who otherwise can't afford it. Give that what credit you will. ISIS are out of Iraq because of the strategy Obama implemented, nothing else. And if you think the US is close to getting out of Syria I'd like to see where you get that supporting evidence from. I think that is wishful thinking. Certainly Trump keeps reiterating the message that he has achieved more than any other president. Not strictly a lie depending on what measure you use. For instance, his government has passed a record number of bills in his first 6 months - 42. Which is 3 more than Obama in the same period although Obama did sign an $800bn stimulus program to help the country out of recession whilst Trump's bills record includes the likes of renaming a building in Nashville and appointing individuals to a museum board. He did withdraw the US from the Paris Climate Deal - again, not one personally I think the US should be proud of, but he's your President. Clearly people have political biases, perhaps even worse than religious ones. So it depends on who you ask as to whether he has achieved much. Personally. to me he is all about division rather than cooperation and bringing together. He's got another 3 1/2 years, I guess we'll just have to wait and see where it goes.

I don't intend to argue about the technicalities of whether God incarnating in a human body is the same as God becoming man, but I will again ask the question if you can explain how you think Jesus made a permanent improvement in the relationship between God and aboriginal Australians who didn't know anything about Jesus or the bible until +1700 years after Jesus' death? Do you think that generations and generations of aboriginals between 33CE and 1700CE (and those before that who also had never heard of the Hebrew bible) knew that their relationship with God had improved, or indeed that it was broken in the first place?

Many years ago, a few times I prayed that I would lose my virginity to an attractive woman (not the least selfish of prayers I know) , yet so it played out. I also prayed on two occasions that I would get the jobs which I was seeking at the time. On both occasion I got the jobs,. Did God answer these prayers? Now, to me, it would seem illogical if that was the case, but I guess I'd have an argument for the affirmative. Present day, personally, I can only imagine prayer as a meditative experience rather than an interventionist God actually doing something in response to prayer.

The fact that my idea is speculative demonstrates that I haven't adopted such a belief system. Nonetheless, Christianity is probably one of the most anthropomorphic religions about, so such leanings are understandable when discussing Christian views. God becoming a man is pretty anthropomorphic isn't it? Can you explain how you think Jesus made a permanent improvement in the relationship between God and aboriginal Australians who didn't know anything about Jesus or the bible until +1700 years after Jesus' death? Do you think that generations and generations of aboriginals between 33CE and 1700CE (and those before that who also had never heard of the Hebrew bible) knew that their relationship with God had improved, or indeed that it was broken in the first place?

Rest assured Burl, I haven't adopted any anthropomorphic belief system., whatever that may entail precisely. Whilst evangelization of Christianity is indeed large scale, my point is that it has taken a very long time for it to get to that point. If the Holy Spirit is so interested in the process, then it makes me question why it took so long after the death of Jesus for the word to spread. Clearly, many millions of people on the planet had no idea Jesus even existed for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years after his death. That seems a big hole in any theory about the bible and Jesus' teachings being a necessity in life. If it was such good news, why should those people have missed out? Your example about having a manual only exacerbates my point - if the Christian God that so many Christians espouse really did think the bible was an essential message for mankind, why not ensure that message is spread worldwide instantaneously? Why sell a message that only one particular tribe are 'chosen' by God and not share any of that info with neighbouring countries until long after it was written? Why not share the 10 Commandments with Australian aboriginals when they were communicated by God rather than nearly 3000 years later? Why are all the stories and teachings so unimportant that this God didn't consider it necessary to share them with the aboriginals and other remote tribes in the world until much, much later?

Top right hand corner of your page.

Burl, Interestingly, australian aborginals had no problems with alcohol before white Europeans arrived on their shores! They didn't need saving from themselves back then, but unfortunately for them, the wisdom of the day was that they needed God, so their children were torn from their families and raised in white, Christian missions. A dismal failure by all regards. Writing developed long before the Hebrews, but as you point out, the dominant cultures usually win through and so we saw Christianity spread across the world in the same pattern as anglo saxon spread. My point is much like what Thormas points out - the Bible is a Jewish & Christian understanding of what they believed concerning God. It doesn't address what any other culture believes or practised (apart from the odd references of nearby neighbours who worshipped the wrong Gods apparently). I'm sure you would agree that many Christians take the bible as the definitive communication between God and mankind. I think that view is very narrow considering everything and everyone else in the world during the time the various elements of the bible were written. For instance, if the Gospels really are the 'Good News' doesn't it seem off that the Christian God felt it unnecessary to share such good news with millions and millions of people over the last 2000 years? Why wasn't the good news important enough to share with everybody instantaneously if indeed, it was that good? I'm not saying there isn't any value in many of the teachings and stories associated with Christianity, I'm just questioning it's validity as an accurate record of "God' relationship with mankind" because of its very obvious 'Israelite' focus.

Obviously the Bible is considered Christianity's 'Holy Book' and many Christians believe it is either directly communicated by God to man, or they think it is 'inspired' by God. Most Christians believe the Bible to be, at the very least, a guide book towards what God wants and interpret variously the messages within this library of books as messages from God. Recent comments on another thread about the Bible expressing key elements about God's relationship with man, as though this Book is the only one that speaks for this man/God relationship, reminded me of this pic. To think that of the millions of years that mankind has existed, that one collection of books from a very limited geographical and cultural perspective somehow holds the key to the universe, is hard for me to accept. Every place and culture referred to in the bible fits within this little red circle and was written within a time frame of no more than 1000 years. I can't help but think that if it wasn't for the Romans taking Christianity on and then colonising the world, Christianity may well have died the death of so many other religions from so many of these other countries. In my country, Aboriginal people lived some 50,000 years without any knowledge of the Bible or believing of a God like that in the Hebrew bible. It seems to me that if God really did inspire the Bible, then he left some very big gaps concerning the history and 99% of the population of the world.

Divine/divinity - I pretty much only use this term in describing something exquisite, like the above-mentioned cheesecake. as opposed to 'The' divine as though an entity Transcendence/transcend/transcendent - to exceed normal expectations Immaterial - something that doesn't matter God - community Holy - treated with reverence Spirit/Spiritual ... OK this has been done before Grace - a character trait that one may demonstrate by letting others be This is what those words mean to me, but naturally I recognise that others use these words differently and I may too in order to communicate with others.

I think loving your kids and letting them know you don't have all the answers, is more than enough! I'm sure your kids will be just fine with a loving mother like you.

Welcome Anthony, I hope you enjoy participating here. Would love to catch up but a bit of a trek from Oz I'm afraid! Cheers Paul

I know the feeling Lani and I felt very much the same when I was going through my period of anxiety and depression (which coincided with my kids being about 2 & 4). My wife was also experiencing post natal depression and we didn't recognize it for that until she sought help. I know there can be a stigma associated with depression/anxiety but I would encourage you to consider talking to a professional if that might be a possibility. There's nothing wrong with that and both my wife and I found such a process exceptionally beneficial. I am not saying that is your predicament, but it could possibly be feeding into your anxiety about your children. I don't know where I read it and I have since had trouble locating it, but I remember reading a a story around that time that I found particularly comforting. It went along the lines of this: A distraught mother had her three young toddlers in a bath, preparing to drown them. She was distraught with the thought that if she didn't raise them properly that they might not 'choose Jesus' and would go to Hell. She thought it better to kill them now as innocents so that they would see heaven, than take the chance of raising them and they possibly end up in Hell. In distress at the thought of killing her kids the woman cried out to Jesus saying "please don't let me do this - take my life instead and spare my children - grant them life with you". To this Jesus replied "Woman, if I loved you so much that I was prepared to die for you, do you really think I could allow you or your children to be separated from me". Now I could have the story wrong (wherever it was written) but that's how I remember it. For me personally, it just made me think that if there is anything 'existential' or 'spiritual' to our existence, whatever it is can only be a good thing in the end rather than a harmful thing. If my kids (or I) get it wrong in our tiny blip of an existence on an eternal timeline, then I'm certain that whatever 'higher power' might possibly exist, it would understand. This in turn has allowed me to better accept the day to day. I ponder spirituality and religion, as I do life in general, however i feel no compulsion to 'get it right' or for my kids to. In the end, they will simply work out for themselves what works for them. Sure, guidance is important in life, and opening up our children's minds to the possibilities of all things (not just the spiritual) is a burden that all parents practice to different degrees, but I rest easy knowing that what works for them, will be what works for them. I hope I make some sort of sense. Cheers Paul

Burl, I'm not sure if you're asking that question of me, but if you are, then I would say my 'belief system' fairly comprehensively integrates various aspects of reality, the imagination, and the artistic, with consideration for possibilities that are unknown. And I am always trying to understand if there may be reasons for changing my belief system. Hence why I ask questions of other people who tell me what their belief system entails, how it works, and how they substantiate it. That's how I see any of us growing - by trying to understand things that we don't. For me it's okay of you don't have an answer, but I was trying to understand that if, within your belief system, you believe that God stopped communicating with mankind after the tower of Babel, what do you think that meant for the millions of other cultures and people around the world that new nothing of the Tower and who presumably may have been left scratching their heads at the sudden ceasing of communication from God, if indeed God was even communicating with anybody else outside of the Israelite. Again, an "I don't know" is fine too.

Thanks for explaining that Burl. I think you are saying that Jesus turned 'the key' for everybody, regardless of culture and whether they knew he was the key or not, and that is what has opened up mankind to being able to reconnect to God. But isn't this position a little egocentric around the Hebrew scripture? You seem to be taking for granted that Jesus was required to 'unlock' something (that in my opinion was perhaps actually never locked in the first place). You earlier mentioned that God stopped communicating with mankind after the Tower of Babel. Then moving on he only spoke through the prophets. Did God not have a relationship then with Australian Aborigines some 40,000 years ago? If he did, might they have thought it strange that he abruptly stopped this relationship with them when some construction project, that they didn't know about, on the other side of the world, collapsed? Or do you see stories like Babel as a myth by a particular culture simply as a way of trying to explain why they think they are separated from God?

Firedragon, Welcome back. I'm not much of a churchgoer myself but am glad you have found one that works for you. Cheers Paul

What I mean is that if as you say "Humanity had derailed, but Christ put us back on track", how does it put back on track anybody who has never heard of Jesus? Are you saying Jesus is only the key for cultures who are somehow connected to the Hebrew scriptures? Do other cultures have other 'keys' for restoring their relationship with God that have nothing at all to do with Christ then?

I don't understand how 'the key' to being 'fully human' is meant to work then for people who didn't know anything about the key for 1500-2000 years (American Indians, Australia Aborigines) and perhaps those who still don't (maybe another Amazon tribe who has never been exposed to the 'outside' world). Did/does God not want the key turned for these people?

Welcome Lani, I grew up in a fundamental church in Australia (Churches of Christ) which was very much like the Baptists. Around 18/19 I was leaving that sort of Christianity but came back for a brief 6-9 months to a Baptist church (before I finally decided that I was right in leaving Christianity behind in the first place ). So I am very familiar with those teachings of Hell. When I was 40 (9 years ago) I too suffered a bit of an existential crisis when as a result of suffering anxiety (caused by financial matters and probably aggravated by career and young family pressures) my friend told me it was Jesus trying to call me back. This brought back all my childhood teachings about Hell and the requirement to 'believe in Jesus'. I had a very hard time of it for nearly a year. But I found this forum and some other progressive christian authors and scholars who helped me learn more about the history of Christianity, including what we can say for certain and what we can't. Why I like this forum is it has shown me that I didn't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are some positive things about progressive Christianity that I find value in (which incidentally I think can also be found elsewhere too, but Christianity is the religion I am most familiar with). But for me, condemning unbelievers to an eternal punishment is certainly not one of them and this place has helped me understand what I consider a better picture of Christianity, based on better biblical scholarship and interpretation than what I had been indoctrinated with. I hope you enjoy participating here. There is also a lot of information in previous threads that you will find throughout the archives. Cheers Paul

Iani, I'm comfortable sharing my personal experiences, but I'm not sure I'm any help. Firstly, I grew up in a strongly Christian household. At about 14 I gave my life to Jesus. I could speculate what a kid at 14 understands about 'accepting Jesus into their heart' but that's for another thread perhaps. I remained a 'true believer' until my 18th year. During all of that time I had no experience with spirits, the supernatural, God talking to me or anything. Zip. I had convincing belief, but that was about it. Around 19-20, when I was leaving Christianity I thought I experienced some spiritual phenomena. Strangely enough this was during my time of 'doubt' and when I was working out for myself if I could continue on with Christianity or not. I had a couple of instances where I felt a 'presence' and it felt very real. But between now and then (some 30 years) of not being a churchgoing Christian, I have experienced nothing. So I wonder if it was all in my mind - some sort of cognitive dissonance. Maybe not all that strangely, when I was suffering anxiety for a period around the age of 40, again I experienced this feeling of a presence - in this instance an unpleasant one, like a black dog attacking, which again seemed very real but which I don't believe was. So I guess what I am saying is that for me, I wonder if any such experiences are all in our heads. That is not to dismiss or put down anybody else's experience because maybe I am wrong and maybe their experience is real rather than just seeming to be real. It just doesn't ring true for me is all. I have been to psychics on 2 or 3 occasions. Once one seemed fairly accurate, but in a general sort of way that I think left open an interpretation no matter which way things panned out that could be attributed to them being right. The two other times seemed completely off the mark and nothing they said eventuated in the following years. But of course there are others who would swear their experience with the supernatural is very, very real. So like I said, probably not much help! Cheers Paul

Welcome back Nick, I think lots of labels may apply to all of us to varying degrees.. Whilst they can be used to help identify with certain lines of thoughts and beliefs and make things supposedly a bit easier to explain, the difficulty comes when we may not meet all that is specifically regarded by some as part of that label. That can often lead to some fun at parties, I agree! Cheers Paul

Jeb, My exit from fundamental Christianity began around 18/19 years of age when as a less-sheltered young man I began to be exposed to the world through my occupation as a police officer. I started to see the 'injustice' of being sentenced to eternal separation from a loving God and Father simply because one did not 'believe' what they had been told by others to believe. Many of the people (criminals) I was dealing with were largely a product of their upbringing and societal circumstances. I started to see the bible as opinion and commentary by individuals, inspired or not, who were simply writing things 'as they saw them'. So no, for me, I can't imagine anybody being sentenced to an eternal torture chamber or being separated from their loving Father because they didn't get their short life on this planet, 'right'. A little disclaimer - I currently label myself (if I have too) as an agnostic atheist (i.e. I do not believe in a theistic God/deity and for me I don't think there is any sort of God in a supernatural sense, but acknowledge I don't know what I don't know ). Welcome to the forum and I hope you find it helpful. Cheers Paul

G'day Rhonda, Welcome to the Forum. Cheers, Paul