glintofpewter

This thread or conversation is an inter-religious dialog because the participants do not agree; because they use different language and practices in their spiritual journey; because there different understandings of Jesus the Christ, and, few seek to be in alignment with one another. I think that understanding is the ultimate value in inter-religious dialog. Understanding another's position, understanding their own and being better able to articulate their own position are outcomes of the dialog. The ultimate value is not truth but understanding. Separately, In part, David, this is what I understand you to be saying about meaning. Whether there is meaning is a fundamental question for evaluating any system belief. Meaning flows out of a personal beginning. If there is not a personal beginning then there are no personalities, no person hood, no individuals to make choices. There is no reference for good and evil. There is no difference in the outcomes and no consequences for actions. No reason for afterlife. Is it correct? Dutch

Truth is not the ultimate value in inter-religious dialogue.

(I shouldn't do this the addict said.) David, The stories I tell are eclectic and any conceptual framework is jerry-rigged. If I can stay centered then I only do this for the exercise. I'll risk this one more time. Without a personal beginning, all that exists would be impersonal. I don't think this statement is true. If it were you and I would agree but we don't so it is not true - at least between us. And, yes, in my view it's "truthfulness" does depend on us. This impersonality may be mass, energy, or motion, but all equally impersonal. It makes no difference which you start with. As soon as you accept this impersonal beginning everything is reduced to these impersonal factors. If all is impersonal, how do the particulars have any meaning? Nobody has given us an answer to that. If that is not a cry for help then is it the right question to ask? I wonder. But to your question of how can an impersonal beginning lead to anything personal I think Walter Goldschmidt in Bridge to Humanity: How Affect Hunger Trumps the Selfish Gene has a good answer. He describes how several strands in the development of hominids came together around the nurturing relationship of mother and child. Walking upright, grammar/toolbuilding - I believe there are four and do not have my book handy (I have been moving) This confluence, fueled by the mother child relationship, created the conditions for such as culture, knowledge and learning, and morals. God learned about the power of love as mother and child learned about the power of love - in the process of life itself. Victors write the meaning of history. Perhaps then the rest just live it. Dutch

And I have asked to be Where no storms come, I'm waiting. Maybe six months. Hopkins brings to mind those schooled echoes. Pick a memory and google the whole poem. No wonder of it: sheer plod makes plough down sillion Shine, and blue-bleak embers, ah my dear, Fall, gall themselves, and gash gold-vermillion. and THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God. It will flame out, like shining from shook foil; It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod? Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil; And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod. A celebration of the sounds of words!

Hi Joseph I'm back in small ways. Makes me think of an 9-year old making stilts with a power saw and no adult supervision.

seems more like a palindrome than a koan

Derek, Thanks for posting Larkin and Thomas poems. I don't take to poetry often; it is not my native language. "Faith healing" and "The Hill farmer speaks" were worth the pause. Both seem to be truth tellers Thomas: I am the farmer stripped of love And thoughts and grace by the land's hardness; But what I am saying over the fields' Desolate acres, rough with dew, Is, Listen, listen, I am a man like you. Larkin: An immense slackening ache, As when, thawing, the rigid landscape weeps, Spreads slowly through them - that, and the voice above Saying Dear child, thanks Dutch

Rivanna, Tariki, thanks for the welcome. The Invitation does seem overwhelming - maybe a verse a day. The verse that I would choose is: I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand at the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, 'Yes.' also -truth telling It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; In "The Shack", which is part of my temporary canon, Mack didn't tell his wife about the note which may or may not have been from God because he thought he was protecting his wife. Abba observes that if Mack had told her then his wife would be fully free to make her own choice. She might even leave Mack, but Mack would be a truth teller which is better than any good Mack might have thought he was doing. To be a vulnerable truth teller -- And there is Jonathan Star's translation of Tao Le Ching Chapter 6 which leaves me breathless. Endlessly creating Endlessly pulsating The Spirit of the Valley never dies She is called the Hidden Creator Although She becomes the whole universe her immaculate purity is never lost Although She assumes countless forms her true identity remains intact Whatever we see or don't see Whatever exists or doesn't exist Is nothing but the creation of this Supreme Power Tao is limitless, unborn, eternal--It can only be reached though the Hidden Creator She is the very face of the Absolute The gate to the source of all things eternal Listen to her voice; hear it echo through creation Without fail, She reveals her presence Without fail, She brings us to our own perfection Dutch

My wife gave me adaybook of the thoughts of C. S. Lewis. Narnia was my last interaction with Lewis but the entry from January 26 will take the next few months to digest. ...life is not like a river but like a tree. It does not move towards unity but away from it and the creatures grow further apart as they increase in perfection. Good, as it ripens, becomes continually more different not only from evil but from other good. C. S. Lewis, the Great Divorce, Preface Hmmmm Dutch

What's on my plate! what book do keep on your shelf to read over and over again?

I recommend A Progressive Christian Faces Death by Jack Good Dutch

May it be so grampawombat Dutch

Bill, I downloaded Dancing on the wall, The River Flows, Hearthquake, and The Final Journey. Great music. Any others you would recommend? Dutch

Bill, mp3fiesta processes their payment thru www.kagi.com so payments are accepted. I won't download from fiesta. Illegal? It probably depends on what one thinks about Russia's Copyright Organization (ROMS) Way too much info ---- Genealogy of fiesta ------ allofmp3 The Web site said in August [year?] it would reopen after it had been shut by Russia a month earlier to ease entry into the World Trade Organization. The Bush administration, which called AllofMP3.com a ``poster child for Internet music piracy,'' said the Web site threatened Russia's entry into the trade group. allofmp3 has been turned into a blog http://blogs.allofmp3.ru/music_news/2008/05/26/music-industry-drops-copyright-suit-against-russian-music-site/ allofmp3 was replaced by mp3fiesta Oddly this next blog connects allofmp3 to mp3fiesta. I say oddly because mp3sparks was also said to be a replacement for allofmp3. There appears to more than one Russia music download site - ever morphing. http://mp3sparks.us/?p=22 This is who registered the domain name mp3fiesta: Registrar: ANO REGIONAL NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER DBA RU Whois Server: whois.nic.ru Referral URL: http://www.nic.ru IP Location: Kiev, Ukraine from a site recommending mp3fiesta The reason MP3Fiesta has such low prices is that Russia's Copyright Organization (ROMS) sets the rate for the royalties, and they set their rates low! So while the artists, producers, lables, and the likes are paid, they are paid much less than they would be paid if the album were sold in the Unite States. One additional note is that an artist can request that ROMS not allow their music to be sold online by submitting a request with proof that they own the music they do not want sold online. Dutch

I need to do more research dutch

I did some research. MP3fiesta is based in the Ukraine or in Russia and operates under the Russian Copyright Law. Dutch http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/16/allofmp3_shut_down/

Bill, Do you use the fiesta site? Prices seem incredibly low. I see I have to put money in an account. Anything else I should know? It's not based in Russia so it seems to legal. Dutch

all, Bill's recommendation The River Flows anthology is available on emusic for 1/2 the price - download only. You have to subscribe. About $15.00 month http://www.emusic.com/album/Iona-The-River-Flows-Anthology-Vol-1-MP3-Download/10893429.html Dutch

Bill, Can I assume this is sung to a dancing beat? Dutch

(This may be a double post, Joseph. or maybe I posted it elsewhere and can't find it) I spent last night and this morning regaining my center by reading what I had missed on this board. Sunday should have been a good time to drop into the ER and have them assure me that the tingling I was feeling in the left arm and leg was not serious - perhaps didn't meet the criteria for a stroke. 36 hours later they released me. I am OK. All the tests agree that if it was a TIA there was no permanent effect and no obvious cause. Reading "The Schack" connected me with my deceased daughter and left me tearful and vulnerable. Metaphorically slapping a doctor upside his head to remind him that the patient is part of the collaborative team that is seeking health and wholeness brought to mind all those days, weeks and even months in hospital with Annie learning how necessary it is to advocate continually for the patient to achieve the best possible outcome. It is a struggle and I was emotional because I was now the patient having to fight for the best possible care - and I was there only for tests. Dutch

Wow! Congratulations! I look forward to the completion of you blog. Dutch

Two year anniversary of beginning treatment for prostate cancer. Results since have been good. Dutch

Saturday our congregation experienced its first Holy Union Celebration with a same gender couple. Not high church or low, just "messy" - meaning very human. "Chosen parents" presented the bride/groom. We sang "Give Thanks," a favorite of mine. Because of allergies one partner had not participated fully in communion for many years. For this moment creativity found a way to communion for the couple and their family. My coleslaw was part of the potluck. Dining, entertainment by the children, and dancing completed the meaningful and holy celebration. Dutch

Joseph, Continue to have fun. Dutch

If I had been asleep the tornado siren would have startled me awake. The siren is across the street. We don't often have tornadoes here in town. Lots of rain. Our smaller dog, Sassy, is going nuts. Called Diane and woke her since she had heard no sirens. My call gave her an opportunity to close her windows and keep out the rain. Earlier Diane stopped by for crackers, cheese, tomatoes, fresh basil, balsamic vinegar. We went to see the movie, "Herb and Dorothy," but the theater was closed. I did not notice they were closed Mondays. It was a good evening with Diane. Dutch