glintofpewter

Leaving this morning for family reunion which focuses on the grandchildren of my mothers great grand father Morten Larsen Mortensen. 75 of us will gather at my sister's ranch 17 miles up the Elk River from Steamboat Springs, Colorado. It may be the last time for a long time Diane and I and our two children and their spouse/beau will be in the same place at the same time. Take Care Dutch

Women: Is it because men are more confrontational and women more collaborative; Dutch

David, This is non-responsive non-sense to the Ugandan situation. Since your rational philosophic of Christianity seems to be useless in finding values or morality issues to discuss here then it seems to be meaningless. So sorry, Dutch

I have experienced a writing moment where everything relates to my focus and so write a litany such as this "evidence of personal beginning" list. Ignoring the figure-ground problem of "personal beginning" many of the items seem meaningless to me. But a few catch my attention. As Mike commented evolution explains complexity very well, I think. I am open to this but that is because, following Jakob Boehme, I think that seeking self knowledge is the why of creation and relationship is the how. Evolution is sufficient explanation for freedom. I don't understand why humans have to know the "why" of morality. Morality grows out relationship. There is no prior why that I see. I think that morality can be explained by evolution and learning how to live together. And . . . Two truckers and the low bridge . . . that's how science works and yes, it hurts sometimes. Just ask those people who thought we could fly by imitating the flapping wings of a bird and tested the idea by jumping off bridges. Flying low, Dutch

David, Give Neon enough respect to discuss the following in particulars. If these people are not taking right action how are they to know what right action is? Dutch

David, In a very impersonal response you have totally ignored the challenge in the evidence that Neon puts forth. Based on Neon's evidence and your response I think that the answer to your question below is "Let's ignore the evidence on earth and in the Bible and I, David, will tell you. I will tell what the Bible means since you clearly misread it and I will tell you how logic works because clearly you don't understand." The personal beginning gives no evidence for final absolutes and final categories. A personal beginning gives evidence for relationships. Relationships are not absolutes or categories; they are personal and dynamic. Hi Your grinding stone, Dutch

Found this googling. Thought you might like it. Barry Lopez (Arctic Dreams) How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one's culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light. dutch

1 John 4:7&8 It is enough. Dutch

Your astuteness, Logically I don't see how you can say anything about the beginning. We can only talk about what happened next and next and next . . . But I believe in the stories of our faiths we can talk about beginnings and we can talk about spiritual truths. These are heart and soul stories of mystery and Spirit. To make them any less with analysis by logic and science is to destroy them. Humans did not "get" knowledge about good and evil. Humans are learning about good and evil. We often forget what our parents learned. And we have to learn again. The history of democracy is not about deciphering the manual; it is about writing it. I don't agree with everything in the Westminster Confession. I see Goldschmidt, the Larger Catechism, and Ten Commandments as being of the same cloth: Humans learning to live with each other and setting standards for behavior. The intent of this project is not to be dismissed as meaningless because there is no absolute propositional reference. It is a matter of life and death. And it is enough. Ultimately it is about love. Your humble silver-tonguedness

Your astuteness, If the beginning has an attribute then it has been individuated and is therefore not the beginning. Something personal is part of but not the whole of that which is the beginning. See Walter Goldschmidt, Affect Hunger, for one answer. The Westminster Confession of Faith Larger catechism has an excellent commentary on the 10 commandments. Same to you. Take care. Dutch

To arms! to arms! There is a dragon -- fun for a bit David, Inter-religious dialog The 4th step of inter-religious dialog is to engage in and experience the other's religious practices. And reflect. Clarity? Certainly. Change? possibly. I think if the two participants agree on a truth then it is so. But the truth only exists in their agreement. I am reminded of peer reviewed scientific endeavors. I think one can know things about gravity or apples that are true but a religious truth that can be spoken of in the same way as gravity, that is unobtainable, or, rather, I don't see evidence of that. In the face of death humans have a need to make meaning, but there is no evidence of intrinsic meaning. I only see man-made meaning, if by "meaning" one means "intent". That which began creation is the source of everything, especially all that we think, rightly or wrongly, is good or evil. I think humans intrinsically don't know anything about good and evil; humans discover this knowledge in relationship with each other and the world. Based on your definitions I see no evidence in the natural world to support the claim of a personal or impersonal beginning. I think neither attribute applies; that no attribute applies. Attributes came after the beginning so did not exist in the beginning. As I reviewed the thread I see that you are well-read and logical in your intellect, great assets in discipling, and perhaps, proselytizing. This must be a good place to sharpen you sword. Enjoy! Dutch

This thread or conversation is an inter-religious dialog because the participants do not agree; because they use different language and practices in their spiritual journey; because there different understandings of Jesus the Christ, and, few seek to be in alignment with one another. I think that understanding is the ultimate value in inter-religious dialog. Understanding another's position, understanding their own and being better able to articulate their own position are outcomes of the dialog. The ultimate value is not truth but understanding. Separately, In part, David, this is what I understand you to be saying about meaning. Whether there is meaning is a fundamental question for evaluating any system belief. Meaning flows out of a personal beginning. If there is not a personal beginning then there are no personalities, no person hood, no individuals to make choices. There is no reference for good and evil. There is no difference in the outcomes and no consequences for actions. No reason for afterlife. Is it correct? Dutch

Truth is not the ultimate value in inter-religious dialogue.

(I shouldn't do this the addict said.) David, The stories I tell are eclectic and any conceptual framework is jerry-rigged. If I can stay centered then I only do this for the exercise. I'll risk this one more time. Without a personal beginning, all that exists would be impersonal. I don't think this statement is true. If it were you and I would agree but we don't so it is not true - at least between us. And, yes, in my view it's "truthfulness" does depend on us. This impersonality may be mass, energy, or motion, but all equally impersonal. It makes no difference which you start with. As soon as you accept this impersonal beginning everything is reduced to these impersonal factors. If all is impersonal, how do the particulars have any meaning? Nobody has given us an answer to that. If that is not a cry for help then is it the right question to ask? I wonder. But to your question of how can an impersonal beginning lead to anything personal I think Walter Goldschmidt in Bridge to Humanity: How Affect Hunger Trumps the Selfish Gene has a good answer. He describes how several strands in the development of hominids came together around the nurturing relationship of mother and child. Walking upright, grammar/toolbuilding - I believe there are four and do not have my book handy (I have been moving) This confluence, fueled by the mother child relationship, created the conditions for such as culture, knowledge and learning, and morals. God learned about the power of love as mother and child learned about the power of love - in the process of life itself. Victors write the meaning of history. Perhaps then the rest just live it. Dutch

And I have asked to be Where no storms come, I'm waiting. Maybe six months. Hopkins brings to mind those schooled echoes. Pick a memory and google the whole poem. No wonder of it: sheer plod makes plough down sillion Shine, and blue-bleak embers, ah my dear, Fall, gall themselves, and gash gold-vermillion. and THE WORLD is charged with the grandeur of God. It will flame out, like shining from shook foil; It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod? Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil; And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod. A celebration of the sounds of words!

Hi Joseph I'm back in small ways. Makes me think of an 9-year old making stilts with a power saw and no adult supervision.

seems more like a palindrome than a koan

Derek, Thanks for posting Larkin and Thomas poems. I don't take to poetry often; it is not my native language. "Faith healing" and "The Hill farmer speaks" were worth the pause. Both seem to be truth tellers Thomas: I am the farmer stripped of love And thoughts and grace by the land's hardness; But what I am saying over the fields' Desolate acres, rough with dew, Is, Listen, listen, I am a man like you. Larkin: An immense slackening ache, As when, thawing, the rigid landscape weeps, Spreads slowly through them - that, and the voice above Saying Dear child, thanks Dutch

Rivanna, Tariki, thanks for the welcome. The Invitation does seem overwhelming - maybe a verse a day. The verse that I would choose is: I want to know if you can live with failure, yours and mine, and still stand at the edge of the lake and shout to the silver of the full moon, 'Yes.' also -truth telling It doesn't interest me if the story you are telling me is true. I want to know if you can disappoint another to be true to yourself; In "The Shack", which is part of my temporary canon, Mack didn't tell his wife about the note which may or may not have been from God because he thought he was protecting his wife. Abba observes that if Mack had told her then his wife would be fully free to make her own choice. She might even leave Mack, but Mack would be a truth teller which is better than any good Mack might have thought he was doing. To be a vulnerable truth teller -- And there is Jonathan Star's translation of Tao Le Ching Chapter 6 which leaves me breathless. Endlessly creating Endlessly pulsating The Spirit of the Valley never dies She is called the Hidden Creator Although She becomes the whole universe her immaculate purity is never lost Although She assumes countless forms her true identity remains intact Whatever we see or don't see Whatever exists or doesn't exist Is nothing but the creation of this Supreme Power Tao is limitless, unborn, eternal--It can only be reached though the Hidden Creator She is the very face of the Absolute The gate to the source of all things eternal Listen to her voice; hear it echo through creation Without fail, She reveals her presence Without fail, She brings us to our own perfection Dutch

My wife gave me adaybook of the thoughts of C. S. Lewis. Narnia was my last interaction with Lewis but the entry from January 26 will take the next few months to digest. ...life is not like a river but like a tree. It does not move towards unity but away from it and the creatures grow further apart as they increase in perfection. Good, as it ripens, becomes continually more different not only from evil but from other good. C. S. Lewis, the Great Divorce, Preface Hmmmm Dutch

What's on my plate! what book do keep on your shelf to read over and over again?

I recommend A Progressive Christian Faces Death by Jack Good Dutch

May it be so grampawombat Dutch

Bill, I downloaded Dancing on the wall, The River Flows, Hearthquake, and The Final Journey. Great music. Any others you would recommend? Dutch

Bill, mp3fiesta processes their payment thru www.kagi.com so payments are accepted. I won't download from fiesta. Illegal? It probably depends on what one thinks about Russia's Copyright Organization (ROMS) Way too much info ---- Genealogy of fiesta ------ allofmp3 The Web site said in August [year?] it would reopen after it had been shut by Russia a month earlier to ease entry into the World Trade Organization. The Bush administration, which called AllofMP3.com a ``poster child for Internet music piracy,'' said the Web site threatened Russia's entry into the trade group. allofmp3 has been turned into a blog http://blogs.allofmp3.ru/music_news/2008/05/26/music-industry-drops-copyright-suit-against-russian-music-site/ allofmp3 was replaced by mp3fiesta Oddly this next blog connects allofmp3 to mp3fiesta. I say oddly because mp3sparks was also said to be a replacement for allofmp3. There appears to more than one Russia music download site - ever morphing. http://mp3sparks.us/?p=22 This is who registered the domain name mp3fiesta: Registrar: ANO REGIONAL NETWORK INFORMATION CENTER DBA RU Whois Server: whois.nic.ru Referral URL: http://www.nic.ru IP Location: Kiev, Ukraine from a site recommending mp3fiesta The reason MP3Fiesta has such low prices is that Russia's Copyright Organization (ROMS) sets the rate for the royalties, and they set their rates low! So while the artists, producers, lables, and the likes are paid, they are paid much less than they would be paid if the album were sold in the Unite States. One additional note is that an artist can request that ROMS not allow their music to be sold online by submitting a request with proof that they own the music they do not want sold online. Dutch