AletheiaRivers

Jerry, run (don't walk) to your nearest Blockbuster Video and rent the movie "Uncorked" with Minnie Driver and Rufus Sewel. The movie is filled with hidden spiritual insights. About 1/3 of the way into the film there is a scene that has something to do with what you said above. I hesistate to say more because I don't want to ruin in for you. The movie isn't an earthshaking spiritual experience, but that one particular scene reached in and grabbed my heart so tightly I couldn't breath. I think "Be still and know that I am God" is my all time favorite scripture. Wow, we do seem to be on the same wavelength.

It's funny that I spent so much of my adult religious life arguing against the Trinity as being unscriptural, only to become a "Trinitarian" because of science, philosophy, nature. Boy would the elders in my former congregation love to get there hands on me now! I used to feel mystical all the time and over the past few months I lost it. The past few days have brought it back (thanks Fred for bringing up Kenosis). Oh crap, now I have the naked guy from Monty Python's "Life of Brian" dancing around in my brain! Not exactly the Circle of Life dance you had in mind, eh?

I haven't read any books by Campolo yet, but have read many of his online articles. They are so inspiring. I adore Phil Yancey (which everyone on this board should know by now. ) His comment about being the most liberal or conservative depending on the company he's with is dead on. Reading the reviews of "The Jesus I Never Knew" on Amazon.com, which said that he was just another evangelical pushing a literal, inerrant, historical interpretation of the gospels, left me pondering "Did these guys read the same book I just did?" Yes, he does treat the gospels as historical fact, but somehow that doesn't take away from what he has to say about the accounts. I guess it's just something you'd have to read to appreciate. I can't wait to read "What's So Amazing About Grace?" as well as all his other books. After "Grace" I think I'll pick up "Where is God When it Hurts?" Campolo is on my list as well. Sigh. So many books, so little time ...

Flow, Thanks! I just re-read that post and thought "Sheesh, what WAS I thinking?" I've been reading the website "The Wild Things of God" for the past few days and it has me feeling all mystical. It's an awesome website. Highly recommended. I googled "Theosis" a while back and it led me there.

I wish I could take credit for that beautiful line, but alas it was actually a quote from a blog I found a while ago. Is is how I see God though: A dance of opposites that rely on each other for their existence, which are not two however, but one. Duality in unity that make up a trinity. I think we are called to join that dance, both now and after death. I listen to the silence too. I listen for the dance, the heartbeat of God, both without and within myself as well. Sheesh, listen to me. I'm waxing poetic.

Two options: 1 - God could fix everything for us, but I think that makes God into a cosmic bell boy who does nothing but fix our mistakes and the issues of living in a physical universe (earthquakes etc ...). To me the idea of God preventing or fixing pain also begs the question of where the line is drawn? Should he prevent broken legs but not broken arms? Should he preven a child from being hit by a car but not a family pet? Pain and pleasure are so close together that if we couldn't feel pain, we also wouldn't feel the warm touch of a loved one. We wouldn't feel the warning signals of stubbing our toe or putting our hand too close to the fire. Cell division gives us the ability to create new life, but it also gives rise to the possibility of cancer. 2 - God could have created us and the universe in such a way that we could NOT harm each other and so that the world was so "fixed and static" that there would be no natural disasters, but then I think that reality would be nothing more than a 2 dimensional software program. No life. Robot humans living in a robot world. No pain but no pleasure. No falling from a tree, but no climbing a tree either. No cancer, but no babies. No hurricanes, but no seasons, no nightfall, no sunrise.

"Seeds of Contemplation" by Merton "Thou Art That" by Joseph Campbell "Generous Orthodoxy" by Brian McClaren

Sure, I'll bring the chips, salsa and guacamole! Whoo hoo!

Hey Kendra, welcome to our family. Many here have "Eastern leanings" mixed in with their Christianity (myself included), some just a little, some a lot. I'm excited to have you here!

"The Soul's Religion" by Thomas Moore "The Mystic Heart" by William Teasdale "Reaching for the Invisible God" by Yancey

Yeah Lolly. Come back please. We miss you.

If you get sick of lemon juice, you can use fresh lime juice (but not grapefruit) instead. You can also substitute ginger powder for the cayenne powder. Aletheia (10 years managing a natural foods store )

PS - And what's utterly weird is that about a year ago I was discussing "creation ex nihilo" with my hubby and I literally said to him that the only way I could conceive of it happening would be if God created a "hole" in himself and put us there, because is there any "where" that God is not, for him to put us there instead?

Actually, the idea of God self-limiting himself in order to create and relate is something I've had rattling around in my head for a long time. It's where my philosophical "open-view" comes from (as opposed to "biblical open-view"). I don't think God purposefully engineered a world of pain (I understand Irenaeus [and Jung?] did), but at the same time the "buck has to stop" with God because I do believe God has foreknowledge of all potential outcomes, and so knew full well what could come of such an emptying. So when I say the universe was made to be the way it is, I don't mean to say that God created and forordained murderers or rapists or earthquakes to test us ... but that I believe God is the Ultimate Source, that there is nothing "beyond" God. I believe WE have engineered a world of pain. I think we, the universe, God, are all "morally dual" (and by process of balance "neutral")(there is that yin/yang thing again). We have free will (otherwise God would be the direct author of evil) and that many choose death instead of life. I think life is equal parts Grace (knowing that God loves us and nothing can seperate us from that) and "works" (not in the "law' sense, but picking up our cross, emptying ourselves, loving ourselves and then loving others as we do ourselves, and loving God). It is by this process of kenosis (of "works") that we learn (ala soulmaking, ala Iraneaus, ala Theosis). I found this earlier today and your words just now seem very serendipitous:

PS - The whole reason I chose the handle "Aletheia" was because of the idea of kenosis ... that creation was made in such a way as to make us forget God, forget the truth, forget knowledge and be immersed in "illusion" ... that we (or God if you prefer) emptied ourselves to live in this plane ... we drank of the river lethe and emptied ourselves. A-lethe-ia is the process of remembering, of un-emptying ourselves, of finding truth, of finding light.

I didn't say the cycle of life is "wondrous" nor did I say the universe is "shimmeringly radiant". The whole reason I put the word "issue" in quotes was to "soften" it. It's really not an issue, but I didn't know what other word to use. Also, the reason I put the word "fallen" in quotations was to highlight that I don't agree with the standard definition of "fallen" - I don't think humans were created perfect, unable to "sin", and then somehow sinned, and fell from grace (the standard Christian belief). I actually lean towards the idea that Iraneaus had (as I understand it, I haven't read him) - that we are here to "learn" (nutshell version). I appreciate that gnosticism dares to answer that the universe is fallen from union with God. I wasn't trying to say that it didn't. I was trying to say, (as I said above), that I don't think that humans were created materially and spiritually perfect and then fell from perfection. I also don't think the universe is fundamentally flawed (created imperfect by a flawed god). I do think that the universe was purposely set up to distance us from God. That was actually my sig line for awhile. I think we may be on the same page here (hence my confusion).

That's the "issue" I have with gnosticism overall. I don't believe this universe, this world, this existence is "fallen" - not in the way traditional Christianity (Augustine?) means it, and definitely not in the way gnosticism means it. As I've watched "Lost Christianities" with Ehrman, I have been flabbergasted at the views towards life that the gnostics had. I've read a fair amount of "pro-gnostic" books that never touched on these views. They portray gnosticism as "fuzzy bunny mystical love" rather than discussing the asceticism and loathing of the flesh that many gnostics had. I'm not saying that there aren't truths to be found in the gnostic writings and in gnostic philosophy, but I don't think the average person that embraces gnosticism (ala The DaVinci Code) really knows what it is they think they love. I don't think the early church should have suppressed these writings however. People should be allowed to make up their own minds.

But I'm hungry dang it!

Hi Jerry, welcome to the board. Sorry it took me a day to get to your post. I've actually been hanging out on another board. Don't tell anyone. I don't know if you've read any other posts on the board that describe my armchair philosophizing over the last few months, but in a nutshell -I'm still searching, still learning, and still a little lost. My search for God has lead me a bit towards more traditional Christianity, although I'm sure they would still consider me too liberal. I started with the premise that God exists and from that has flowed many ideas (social trinitarianism, open view theism, universalism, "soul making") that just happen to exist in Christianity (though some disagree) as well. I had to step away from Christianity and the Bible in order to come back to it (over a process of about 5 years). The tension between mystery and certainty that you mention? I think that's exactly where we are supposed to be. If you want to talk privately via email or messenger let me know.

Mine were impacted and my jaw had to be chiseled a bit to get them out. I was prescribed percocet and boy oh boy did I ever take them! I sympathize Fred, deeply and painfully.

What I appreciated about that second blog that I linked is that it lists the original greek words used. The words used for "unclean spirit" in that particular scripture are "akathartos pneuma." Akathartos translates as "foul, uncleansed and morally unclean" and pneuma translates as "blast," "wind," "breath," "the breath of life," and "divine inspiration." The word "daimonion" is the word usually translated as devils or demons. That word is not used in this particular verse. So "when an akathartos pneuma goes out of a man ..." translates in my mind to something like "when the unclean breath of life goes out of a man ..." When that which "animates us" (our inspirations, our breath of life) comes from wickedness, evil, or selfishness, then we can be said to have an "unclean spirit". I asked my husband what he remembers being taught the scripture meant. Basically it was that if we stop commiting "morally unclean" acts (clean and sweep out our "house"), but do not replace what we once were with such things as love, compassion, faith, etc ... then when the "unclean spirit" tries to return (as temptation always does) it will find the house empty, swept, unadorned and ready for occupation. Furthermore, giving into temptation or returning to our previous unloving behaviour often leads an individual to decide "I've 'fallen' and I may as well 'eat, drink and be merry...'" So the "unclean spirit" has returned bringing 7 of its closest friends.

We used to have an International House of Pancakes just down the street from where I grew up. I'll never forget the cheesy Swiss decor that was supposed to make you feel like you were in a chalet, perhaps after a day of skiing. That same building still stands all these years later, only now it is a Mexican resterant. Right up the street, put in about 5 years ago, is a franchise IHOP.

Texas Pastor Electrocuted During Baptism Oct 30 7:18 PM US/Eastern WACO, Texas A pastor performing a baptism was electrocuted inside his church Sunday morning after grabbing a microphone while partially submerged, a church employee said. The Rev. Kyle Lake, 33, was standing in water up to his shoulder in a baptismal at University Baptist Church when he was electrocuted, said Jamie Dudley, a church business administrator and wife of another pastor there. Doctors in the congregation performed chest compressions for 40 minutes before Lake was taken to Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center, Dudley said. Police said they weren't called and the hospital referred calls to the church. The woman Lake was baptizing was not injured. Pastors at University Baptist Church routinely use a microphone during baptisms. "He was grabbing the microphone so everyone could hear," Dudley said. "It's the only way you can be loud enough." About 800 people attended the morning service, which was larger than normal because it was homecoming weekend at nearby Baylor University. Lake, who had a wife and three children, had been at the church for nine years, the last seven as pastor.

I found an amazing blog (not the one from my last post) that breaks Matthew 12 down, verse by verse. Each verse is a link to a seperate blog page that offeres an alternative translation of the verse, as well as the greek words that have been translated and whether they are correct translations or are perhaps a bit off. Here would be an alternative translation to verses 43-45 of Matthew 12: "When an impure spirit comes out of a man, it goes through worthless positions, seeking a place to stop but gains nothing. Then he realizes, I will return to my family from where I came; and when he arrives, he finds leisure, cleanliness, and order. Then this [bad behavior] will be carried on and invites in many more useless attitudes to govern it: and the resulting condition of that man becomes meaner than his beginning. This is how it is with this over-burdened generation." Here is some of the commentary regarding these verses from the blog. Reading the entire thing (quite short) is worth it imo. Click here for the blog page. Scroll down to the bottom and click on the verses at the right to go to the individuals pages discussing each verse.