AletheiaRivers

Of course we're all responsible for our own actions. Yes, there might be circumstances in our lives that impel us to act in certain ways. However, we don't HAVE to act in those ways. Determinism says that every effect has a cause, which is true. However, we do have free will. We can choose between any given set of options as to how to act and react to any given situation. A harsh religious upbringing might eventually cause me to feel loathing towards religion. At this point a choice can be made. Do I choose to loath (even hate) ALL religion? Do I choose to reject Christianity only? Do I choose to reject fundamental Christianity only? Do I choose to look into other faiths? Do I choose to give Christianity a second chance? In the "heat of the moment" it might not seem like a choice can be made. The emotions might be too overwhelming to step back and look at the situation rationally. However, eventually the anger is going to cool off (unless a person spends time feeding that anger, which unfortunately, many do). After such a "cooling off period," the situation might look entirely different than it did before. That's what happened to me. I was angry at Christianity. I was angry at God. I didn't go on a rampage against theism, but I also felt, overall, that those that believed in God and religion were deluded and needed a "crutch." It took a about a year before I was open to God and and religion again. At first I explored Zen, Hinduism, and neo-paganism. Then I explored liberal "historic" Christianity. And now I am where I am. We are all victims of something at some point or another in our lives. It's a fact. Support at these times is generally desired and should be given. BUT it is so easy to slip into "victimhood." Thomas Moore in "Care of the Soul" talks about how we all have our stories. It's up to the individual to decide if, in the story of their life, they see themselves as the victim or as the conquering hero. I choose to look back on the myth that is my life and see that, despite the crap that came my way, I SURVIVED. I'm stronger. I couldn't be conquered.

I've never studied Native American religious beliefs, but it was always my impression that EVERYTHING is spirit infused and sacred to them (almost in a panentheistic way) as opposed to their believing there are numerous individual deities. Yes? No?

He's quite quirky, like Christopher Moore, and pretty much all of his books have some sort of religious theme. "Skinny Legs and All" is a long-ish book. "Jitterbug Perfume" is closer to the size of "Lamb."

All I can say is that even though I became an atheist for a short time after I left JW's, I never jumped on the anti-theist bandwagon. Yes, many that are ex-fundamentalists do have a bad taste in their mouth toward God and religion in general. I would say that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. But not everyone that hates God and religion is an ex-fundamentalist. Many that I know online that hate religion and consider themselves atheist have ever been to a church or any other spiritual gathering. Most of them were raised agnostic or atheist and just grew up believing that those with religious tendencies were crazy.

I was thinking about some of this today ... I wonder if, even though so many theists talk about God in such temporal, anthropomorphic terms, if they REALLY believe it, literally? Or is it just easier and more personal to discuss things this way? Even JW's don't think God is a big guy in the sky. (Mormons, on the other hand ...) As far as God being transcendent ... Yes "he" is, but also completely immanent. I think the problem is that often both of these truths are focused on to the exclusion of the other. (Ergo, my new sig line.)

I was reading some of the ideas of Kierkegaard today. Something that he said really struck a chord with me: "The absurd is that the eternal truth has come into existence in time." Keith Ward remarked:

I too understand this distate. Honestly, I find that I can't really participate in discussions on other forums I visit because this view is so prevalent. It can be fun to bandy about theology, but ultimately it becomes moot because my foundation is so completely different than theirs. However, I think it's profoundly sad that individuals (like the humanists that walked out of the meeting in Beach's story) can't look past God-language to try and understand (and find common ground with) what a person (like the Native American speaker) might really have been saying.

Thanks flow!

Well, the joke really turns on the fact that Unitarian Universalism has become a really big tent. While there are still loose historical ties to the actual doctrines of Unitarianism and Universalism -- which both arise out of liberal Christianity -- UU isn't really a Christian denomination in any sense of the word anymore. Not that there aren't plenty of Christian UU's, but it's become just as much a home for the eclectic spiritualist, as the liberal Christian. UU has become particularly attractive to pagans, for whom there isn't really much else in the way of established religious community. So it's an attractive alternative for that reason. UU is all about finding your own path, your own theology, your own spiritual practice, etc., so there really isn't any "UU theology" per se. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When I read the joke the first time, I read Unitarian and thought "not Trinitarian." I then thought "Huh? Non-Trinitarians don't know why they are at your door? But JW's ARE Unitarians." When you then explained that Unitarians are famous for not knowing exactly what they believe, I still thought it must be a poke at non-Trinitarians. I didn't get that you were talking about UU's until JUST NOW! That you were talking about UU's should have been self-evident, based on the punchline of the joke, but for whatever reason (lack of caffeine?), it wasn't. Yes, I do know and understand that about UU's. (I'm so embarrassed at my brain sometimes!)

Hi Lee, welcome to the forum. Christopher Moore. I love him. He's a trip. Have you read "Skinny Legs and All" by Tom Robbins? I think you might like it. "Jitterbug Perfume" and "Fierce Invalids" are pretty good too, although "Skinny Legs" is my favorite.

I remember playing the recorder in middle school. Our teacher must have been a Beatles fan because I remember learning "Eleanor Rigby" and "Michelle My Belle." Good grief, that was 24 years ago! Aaaaaaaaaaaah!

testiment tarrot Nazarith Zeuss noone Challanging prostitue crusifix testement heirress silience sabath somepoint Jeruselum calander wer davinci's atronomy zues I'm not usually a spelling Nazi, but COME ON!

You live in Sin City Flow? I got married in Sin City. The hubby and I have discussed coming back to Mandalay Bay for a second honeymoon/vacation. (There is only one sin city right? I mean you don't live in another sin city do you?)

Aaaaah, OK, makes sense now. Heh heh heh. (I didn't know that about Unitarians.)

I don't get it.

My car thermometer registered 4 degrees below night before last.

The snake, while eating its tale, grows at the same rate at which it consumes itself: Everlasting Life

Ah, got it. Sorry. It was a bit confusing. It probably was a knee-jerk reaction by people who weren't to happy to have a "cult" preaching at them.

You know what? Even in my fundamentalist church growing up, we didn't have any particular fixation on December 25 as being the historical birth date of Jesus. And considering all the conservative and fundamentalist Christians I've known in my lifetime, I can't think of a single person who does. As the above article makes clear, the Bible makes no mention of the date, so any reason for celebrating it on December 25 is clearly based on tradition of some sort. I honestly don't know of any "extreme right view" about Christmas that includes an obsession with the date of December 25. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I wasn't referring to an "extreme right view," or to any group, but to individual Christians I encountered in my door-to-door preaching activity when I was a Dub. I did it for 10 years. Believe me, it came up in coversation A LOT. The first thing people wanted to know was "Why don't you celebrate holidays?" and "Why don't you believe you're going to heaven?" Maybe it's a Mormon thing? They are rather literal. I did most of my door to door work in Utah - Mormon central USA. I also encountered individuals on other bulletin boards (when I was a Dub) who, for whatever reason, felt the need to argue that Jesus was born on Dec 25. Perhaps they didn't really believe it. Perhaps they were just being argumentative. I certainly didn't make my experiences up.

Ahhhh, thanks Flow. Fred knows that I have a tendency to buy books and add them to my "to read" pile.

Some of it!

When I was growing up I celebrated a kind-of "agnostic/Christian Christmas." When I became a JW I gave it up. When I left JW's and became pagan, I celebrated solstice. And when I came back to Christianity, I re-adopted Dec 25 as the day of Jesus birth (whether it's historically true or not). JW's are all about the holidays being pagan, satanic and evil. Many Christians blindly think it was Jesus' birthday and won't hear a word to the contrary. I don't deny that Christmas is pagan in origin. However, contrary to my former view as a JW, I now applaud the Church for adopting some pagan customs and incorporating them into church tradition (rather than condemning them for "apostacy" or being "wordly"). I think the myths of Christmas are deeply and truly Christian, even if they are not historically Christian. Merry Christmas (and if you're not Christian, then Happy Holidays).

I've owned it for about 6 years.

Your comment about "how randomness isn't really random" and the quote you quoted IS what chaos theory is in a nutshell. One web definition is: "an orderly pattern in seemingly disordered conditions." Have you seen the movie "Butterfly Effect?" That is an interesting (and entertaining) look at one aspect of chaos theory. The idea is that a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil and causes a storm in New Mexico. Things seem random (and chaotic), but there is actually an underlying cause (and order) to it all. Fractals are the epitome of "regular irregularity", ie chaos theory.

I have a free DVD from The Teaching Co on mathematics that is all about the Fibonacci sequence and Phi. I haven't watched it yet. I think I'll do that today. The only thing I know is what I read in DaVinci and the research it prompted me to do. Did anyone notice that my avatar was a fractal for a while? Thanks from me too Des. I absolutely love this stuff.