AletheiaRivers

Exactly! And the cool thing is it goes both ways - inward and outward. Again using the analogy that Smith used: If you "look heavenward" the "pyramid's" base is creation, and it gradually becomes unified until you get to God. If you look inward, the individual is the pyramid's base (it's inverted), and the deeper you go, the more unified it gets, until you get to God. As above, so below. I guess that analogy really doesn't have anything to do with fractals or chaos theory, other than fractals appear to be chaotic from one view, but then are found to be not when examined from another view. So it is the same with creation. There, I think I tied the whole thing together.

Only the paradox comes anywhere near to the comprehending fullness of life. -- C.G. Jung A paradox is truth standing on its head to attract attention. -- Nicholas Falletta The way of paradoxes is the way of truth. To test Reality we must see it on the tight-rope. When the Verities become acrobats we can judge them. -- Oscar Wilde The paradox is really the pathos of intellectual life and just as only great souls are exposed to passions it is only the great thinker who is exposed to what I call paradoxes, which are nothing else than grandiose thoughts in embryo. -- Soren Kierkegaard

It's an apt description. I'm just surprised more Christians (including the ones that attend such churces) don't see it.

I love fractals. I love chaos theory. Contemplating ideas like chaos theory (which is at the heart of Taoism) connects me to God just as well (maybe better) than contemplating scripture. (Don't tell the scientists that though. They may get mad. ) "As above, so below" is a scripture that has been rattling around in my brain over the past few days. The wave/particle duality of matter and energy is what first brought it into my mind. Fractals and chaos theory fit very nicely in there as well. As a matter of fact, in the Huston Smith book I just bought, he uses pyramid imagery to describe the universe's relationship to God. (Cool eh Fred?) God is the "tip" of the pyramid where everything unites (and like a particle, has no depth, breadth, or width). As creation flows forth from God, it gets simpler and simpler, more dual, more diverse. Viewed as a fractal, one might focus in on the chaos of creation, which will give way the further away from it you get, until it can all be seen as being one, united, harmonious whole. "At any given moment, life is completely senseless. But viewed over a period, it seems to reveal itself as an organism existing in time, having a purpose, trending in a certain direction." - Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) www.fractalwisdom.com is a cool webpage with lots of links. click here.

ROFLMAO!

I WISH! It was 7:30 here in Mormonstown when I posted, and that was sleeping in (way in). You are welcome and I hope you know that I mean it.

I appreciate it so much when you enter a discussion Darby. I like seeing both sides to a position. I usually find myself agreeing with BOTH because the points of view, imo, are not opposites, but complementary. So here's to hoping that you find yourself moved to join in more conversations (raises coffee cup and offers a toast). (I just woke up.)

It does seem rather odd, doesn't it, to have a church closed not only on Sunday, but on Christmas too? You'd think it would be a double reason to be open!

Hi Scott and welcome to the forum! I would love to hear your journey. I think this area of the forum is as good as any to tell it. The cafe may be another area that would be appropriate. I'd say if your journey includes any spiritual, religious or theological insights, then I'd put i here. (I do wish we would get a "sticky" forum for introductions. HINT HINT Lib!)

No doubt. Ya know, I highly doubt that they even bother to think it through. The view I was taught of God and Heaven as a JW were EXTREMELY anthropocentric. I doubt they even view immortality as a difference in being as much as they do a difference in location. LOL! Okey dokey. Although I wasn't picturing the discussion going quite as deep as our last one.

First I said JW's were conditionalists, then I ammended that to saying they are annihilationists. Now I have to ammend my ammendment. JW's believe humans are by nature mortal and are either granted everlasting life on earth (the sheep), OR immortality in heaven (the 144,000), (everlasting life and immortality are two different things in their view) OR are annihilated by God (the goats). So technically, they are both. Agreed, which was my original thought. I just wondered if perhaps you knew something about "official" Universalist doctrine I might not have heard. I definitely affirm free will, but you knew that. Definitely. I just read a wonderful metaphor about "free-will within God's will" that I really appreciated. I know you and I have discussed this in the past, and I was never able to grasp it, but the analogy I just read gave me a bit of an epiphany. But like you said, to discuss it here more in depth will most likely hijack the discussion. Perhaps another thread?

I don't particularly like it. I don't particularly like any person "blasting" any other person for their beliefs. I might not agree with their beliefs and I might engage in discussion and debate regarding the validity of their (or my) beliefs, but I certainly don't believe they or I should be attacked because of it. No one should have to suffer verbal abuse. Not them. Not me. Not you.

I don't think God would force our return either. Actually, I've never talked to a Chrisitan Universalist who believes that (although I imagine there are a few out there). Are you saying that it is the "norm" for Universalists to believe that God will force non-believers into returning to him? It's always been my understanding that (as you've said) God will simply wait as long as is necessary. Grace has no time limit. Thanks Fred. I'll go save "On First Principles" in my favorites at Amazon (as well as the Classics of Western Spirituality). I searched on Amazon earlier and saw the "Spirit and Fire", but I had no idea if it or the editor was any good. I didn't know that conditionalists and annihilationists drew that fine distinction between themselves. I guess JW's fall more into the annihilationist camp. Of course, in their view, annihilation is conditional upon response or non-response (ie: believing the "right" things) to God.

I've considered myself a Universalist for a while. I've been a Universalist from a philosophical and metaphysical viewpoint for years, but recently began investigating whether or not Universalism is a Christian teaching. In a nutshell, I've decided yes, it is. Perhaps it's not definitive, but simply researching the word "aeon" (translated as "eternal") was enough to make me go "Hmmm ... " Dang, there is that synchronicity again! Origen came up a couple of times in "The Soul of Christianity" when I was reading it yesterday. I thought "I have to ask Fred if he recommends a resource for reading Origen." Do you? I agree. Even conditionalism (and as an ex-JW I know what conditionalism is, inside and out) paints a God whose patience, love, forgiveness, etc ... has limits.

Hey, that Rilke quote was my signature line on this board for a while! I agree about being "more vulnerable" to each other, both on this board, and as part of humanity. I learn so much when I go into a conversation with as few walls (and presuppositions) up, as I can. Ironically, I've found that I have learned some very valuable insights from the most conservative of Christians because I weigh the words for what they are and not from whom they come. What is especially wonderful is when I have a discussion which fledges out a new way of thinking for me, and then I come across a similar thought in another place. For example, the recent philosophical discussion on the Fundamental (not-ist) thread regarding kenosis and God's pouring himself out into the universe (all reality) has come around again in the Huston Smith book I'm reading. Too cool.

Hehehehehehehe! I'm forwarding that one to my dad.

Sounds like "The Minority Report." In the future, retailers (all businesses) scan the retinas of all passersby so that an interactive holographic billboard can shout out "Hey Cynthia! How did you like that Gap teeshirt you bought? Can we interest you in a new pair of khakis?" THAT would be rather strange! Cool movie. One of my favorites.

PS - Here's the webpage The Brick Testament

Here is a couple of my favorite ones: The angel answered "The Holy Ghost will come upon you." Mary was found to be pregnant by the Holy Ghost Shepherds were keeping watch over their flocks After 8 days the baby was circumcized and given the name Jesus. OK, I better stop there. I could just keep going and going.

It didn't sound TOO cranky. But I do agree, there is too much misinformation out there, (but also not enough true information). I think it pays to be cautious. Hackers are getting more and more tricky in what they do. My hubby and I just had a trojan "browser helper object" that NO spyware remover would remove (and most didn't even see it) put into the win32 system file. The trojan is designed to watch online bank transactions. I had to call and change all my online passwords with the bank, change card numbers, etc ... Have you ever read The Transparent Society: Will Technology Force Us to Choose Between Privacy and Freedom? Here's the link to Amazon The editorial review says this: I haven't read it, but do own it. That seems to be the case with many books I have.

My hubby mentioned last night that the google searches that you should be worried about are the "search your desktop" searches, but that even that may have changed. (?) It used to be (still is?) that google would basically take a snapshot of your harddrive when that search option was used. THAT makes me nervous.

The quotes I posted were actually from a series of letters between Huston Smith and another author about Religion versus Spirituality. Smith has always been supportive of the importance of religion and religious organizations in mankind's spiritual journey. I find him quite balanced. It's refreshing to see someone who isn't super conservative standing up for the role of religion in mankinds lives. There is too much knee-jerking going on (but I myself did it and can totally empathize).

Perhaps the minister is/was a Monty Python fan? I didn't mean to laugh at your anecdote MOW, but it was just so dang funny! It's one of my favorite scenes from the movie (along with the guord, the juniper bushes and "Yes, we're all individuals."

EX-LEPER: Alms for an ex-leper. Bloody donkey owners. All the same, aren't they? Never have any change. Oh, here's a touch. Spare a talent for an old ex-leper. MANDY: Buzz off! EX-LEPER: Spare a talent for an old ex-leper. MANDY: A talent? That's more than he earns in a month. EX-LEPER: Half a talent, then. MANDY: No, go away! EX-LEPER: Come on, Big Nose. Let's haggle. BRIAN: What? EX-LEPER: All right. Cut the haggling. Say you open at one shekel. I start at two thousand. We close about eighteen hundred. BRIAN: No. EX-LEPER: Seventeen-fifty? MANDY: Go away! EX-LEPER: Seventeen-forty. MANDY: Look. Will you leave him alone? EX-LEPER: All right. Two shekels. Just two. Isn't this fun, eh? MANDY: Look. He's not giving you any money, so piss off! EX-LEPER: All right, sir. My final offer: half a shekel for an old ex-leper. BRIAN: Did you say... 'ex-leper'? EX-LEPER: That's right, sir. Sixteen years behind the bell, and proud of it, sir. BRIAN: Well, what happened? EX-LEPER: I was cured, sir. BRIAN: Cured? EX-LEPER: Yes, sir, a bloody miracle, sir. God bless you. BRIAN: Who cured you? EX-LEPER: Jesus did, sir. I was hopping along, minding my own business. All of a sudden, up he comes. Cures me. One minute I'm a leper with a trade, next minute my livelihood's gone. Not so much as a by your leave. 'You're cured mate.' Bloody do-gooder. BRIAN: Well, why don't you go and tell him you want to be a leper again? EX-LEPER: Ah, yeah. I could do that, sir. Yeah. Yeah, I could do that, I suppose. What I was thinking was, I was going to ask him if he could make me a bit lame in one leg during the middle of the week. You know, something beggable, but not leprosy, which is a pain in the arse, to be blunt. Excuse my French, sir, but, uh-- MANDY: Brian! Come and clean your room out. EX-LEPER: Thank you, sir. Thanks-- Half a denary for me bloody life story? BRIAN: There's no pleasing some people. EX-LEPER: That's just what Jesus said, sir. Life of Brian Script

"Google! We could do good, but we're like, whoa." I like that one!