Salvation from what?

[PaulS]

Obviously Bart would disagree with Rex about Jesus if Rex thinks Jesus wasn't being an apocalyptic prophet.  I'm not sure 'journalistic skills' have much particular merit in this field of research and I'd favour Bart's biblical scholarship to Rex's journalistic skills when it comes to better understanding Jesus & the NT, but Rex's ideas are food for thought, for sure.

I don't think the representations we have of Jesus imply he meant NEVER apply judgement (clearly that Jesus encourages people to make a 'choice' about how to live their life - even though evil exists people have a choice whether to practice evil or not).  Rather, Jesus is portrayed as saying don't judge people alone for the position they find themselves in.  Often Jesus seemed to use the 'don't judge' application when he was referring to people of 'lesser' standing in the community - lepers, prostitutes, women, Samaritan's, etc. I think the classic "don't judge a book by it's cover" is more what he meant.  But I could be wrong

[romansh]

I think Gus has interesting interpretations. 

Gus Lott - John 1:12-13, "But to all who received him, who... | Facebook

[PaulS]

4 hours ago, romansh said:

I think Gus has interesting interpretations. 

Gus Lott - John 1:12-13, "But to all who received him, who... | Facebook

[romansh]

Content not available?

The link works for me?

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by romansh

[romansh]

Does this work?

Gus Lott | Facebook

[PaulS]

17 hours ago, romansh said:

Does this work?

Gus Lott | Facebook

Yeah, content not available.  Maybe that post was only shared with people who 'Follow' Gus? I can get to his overall FB page, but not that particular post it seems.

[romansh]

6 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Yeah, content not available.  Maybe that post was only shared with people who 'Follow' Gus? I can get to his overall FB page, but not that particular post it seems.

It's there a few posts down  ... It starts with John1:12-13.

[PaulS]

4 hours ago, romansh said:

It's there a few posts down  ... It starts with John1:12-13.

I can see about a dozen posts going back to April 2017, but not this one.  Have you 'Friended' him on Facebook - maybe it's a post only 'Friends' can see?

[romansh]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:00 PM, PaulS said:

I can see about a dozen posts going back to April 2017, but not this one.  Have you 'Friended' him on Facebook - maybe it's a post only 'Friends' can see?

Yeah ... I checked with my wife's facebook ... don't get the full Monty so to speak.

[Buckeyeinwv]

Does the salvation that came to the house of Zacchaeus represent a change of heart away from selfish ambitions as opposed to the salvation from Hell that is preached in fundamental churches? 

[PaulS]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:59 AM, Buckeyeinwv said:

Does the salvation that came to the house of Zacchaeus represent a change of heart away from selfish ambitions as opposed to the salvation from Hell that is preached in fundamental churches? 

Personally, I think much of what Jesus is reported as saying was hijacked by later-developing Christianity.  I do think that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet preaching the end of the world (in those times, not some distant future) and whilst he didn't preach an eternal brimfire Hell, he did expect those who did not follow God to be destroyed when God came to rule the earth.

[PaulS]

3 hours ago, Divine_will said:

But your opinion is of no value, you think and think your way around the scriptures but you are not prepared that they will catch up with you. You are off course not a Christian, but into new age. The spirits gave you a thought to start this website and you just blindly obey that thought. In the end it's not much of your own ideas and inspiration that you have put into this website, but something that came from the spirit world you have opened yourself up to in the first place. Or did you not?

We all have opinions, even you.  How YOU see Christianity, scripture, 'spirits', etc is all just your opinion and understanding.  Accusing others of not being Christian, YOUR type of Christian, is just an opinion.   Hell as a place of eternal punishment simply doesn't exist in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament it is NOT a teaching of Jesus and only developed in later decades following Jesus death.

This Forum is a safe place for people to discuss their views, opinions, and understandings.  If you wish to participate in a discussion here, then your are most welcome, but you must do so in good faith and without putting down others.  If you cannot abide by the Forum Guidelines then you will b banned from participating here, and wouldn't that be a waste. 

[PaulS]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:06 AM, Divine_will said:

But your opinion is of no value, you think and think your way around the scriptures but you are not prepared that they will catch up with you. You are off course not a Christian, but into new age. The spirits gave you a thought to start this website and you just blindly obey that thought. In the end it's not much of your own ideas and inspiration that you have put into this website, but something that came from the spirit world you have opened yourself up to in the first place. Or did you not?

I didn't mean to scare you off, Divine Will.  Did you wish to discuss the matter, or did you just want to post your say and then leave?

[tariki]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:29 AM, PaulS said:

I didn't mean to scare you off, Divine Will.  Did you wish to discuss the matter, or did you just want to post your say and then leave?

Ha ha.......😋     

Still fighting the good fight!

 

All the best Paul.

[PaulS]

8 minutes ago, tariki said:

Ha ha.......😋     

Still fighting the good fight!

 

All the best Paul.

Thanks Derek

It's a hapless cause I know, but I can't help myself!

[tariki]

8 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Thanks Derek

It's a hapless cause I know, but I can't help myself!

Yes, I know the feeling. I've been active on Similar Worlds and continue to cross swords with the self-proclaimed "true believers" (as in the circular argument "God reveals the truth of his Word to the true believer, I am a true believer and so he has revealed its truth to me"......😀)

I guess the Lord knows his own.

PS I tend to keep changing my screen name to keep ahead of the pack.......Telegram Sam, Pipedreams, and - as they say - many others.

Edited December 11, 2023 by tariki

[PaulS]

8 minutes ago, Divine_will said:

I signed in and the first thing I saw is a bunch of warnings. What is going on Paul? You either a believer or not. However you seem neither hot or cold. Just pick one.  

I didn't hurt anyones feeling because no one is active here.

The warnings were for not abiding by the Forum Guidelines concerning the quality of your posts and how you address other contributor's opinions.  You are welcome, even encouraged, to participate here, but please abide by the guidelines that you committed to, when you signed up to this Forum. It's not about 'feelings' it's about integrity and adhering to what you agreed to adhere to when you signed up as a member here.

Would you care to actually discuss the proposition of this thread and provide your answer as to what you think God had in mind for the large majority of human existence - that is the humans that lived during the +150,000 years leading up to the beginning of biblical stories even being captured?

[PaulS]

9 hours ago, Divine_will said:

I wonder how you see the bible. You said '+150 000 years leading up to the beginning of biblical stories'. What do you actually believe? Are you an atheist? 

 

It's interesting how you feel you need to know what I believe (as if you could sum it up in a couple of words) to accurately understand how I 'see' the bible.  What answer would you like?  A simple one, like "I'm an atheist" which perhaps then helps you pidgeon-hole immediately what such a view could mean to how I see the bible, or are you genuinely interested in the various ways I see the bible, which include that I see it as:

• A book comprising of a collection of wide and varied writings that started to come together as the so-=called 'Bible' around the 3rd or 4th century CE,
• These varied writings came from a wide array of sources over a period of some 800 years (starting around 500BCE), drawn from a variety of social and cultural contexts, often impacted by the times they lived
• Many of the writings were myths and stories that people who couldn't possible have a better understanding of how the world worked, used these as a way of explaining their existence and experiences
• There's some beautiful poetry and inspiration to be drawn from some parts of the bible, and indeed some parts of it people use to guide their life choices (choices that some might regard as either good or bad choices)
• The various writings evolved and developed over that 800 years with a primal view of God as a violent, jealous, retributive God, to one of love, peace and all that stuff in the CE.
• A book that has been misused by later Christians to promote the idea of an eternal hell of torture, when no such place is ever mentioned in the Old Testament, and Jesus never promoted such either.  Hell simply wasn't a notion in Judaism.

I could go on, but I'm uncertain whether you are genuinely interested. If you are, I'm more than happy to have an ongoing discussion with you.

But back to my original question and the substance of this thread, what do you think God had in mind when humans roamed the earth for some +150,000 years as homo sapiens, prior to the existence of the bible?  Do you think God thought for all that time that people didn't need such a book, but that it only became an issue some 2,500 yrs ago?

P.S. I would currently label myself as an agnostic atheist, but that could be subject to change in the future, just as it has been in the past.

 

 

[tariki]

36 minutes ago, Divine_will said:

It does matter what you belief because you run a Christian website. That is why. You are an atheist that is clear and you are polluting the faith.

That you hold such a grudge to Christianity is kinda sad. You probably got a bad childhood or something or els you would not go above and beyond infiltrating the faith with false doctrines.

All this time and money you put into this facade could have been invested in a good hobby or something useful. But no, instead of that you decide to cry over your childhood and pay money to invision community as revenge on your Christian parents.

But let me tell you: these people you are trying to lead astray are not Christians. Most of them, like 99% will not stay in the faith. The faith always had these lukewarm folks. You are basically just giving them a platform for a short time they identify as Christian. They are of no use because they did not come to faith with a repenting heart but instead had a urge to become part of a group. Continuing their sin is for most of them more important than turning for it, because they donnot have a repenting heart. So they want to twist and even rewrite the bible if possible. I tell you, they are not Christians and you are wasting your time on them hoping to lead them astray. 

Hi, if I might enter this friendly discussion.....

This is a Progressive Christianity website. It is NOT a Protestant Reform Tradition/Fundamentalist website.

Please respect that. Sadly, your judgemental attitude says little in favour of your own views and opinions - which are just that....views and opinions. 

Thank you. 

 

 

 

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, Divine_will said:

It does matter what you belief because you run a Christian website. That is why. You are an atheist that is clear and you are polluting the faith.

That you hold such a grudge to Christianity is kinda sad. You probably got a bad childhood or something or els you would not go above and beyond infiltrating the faith with false doctrines.

All this time and money you put into this facade could have been invested in a good hobby or something useful. But no, instead of that you decide to cry over your childhood and pay money to invision community as revenge on your Christian parents.

But let me tell you: these people you are trying to lead astray are not Christians. Most of them, like 99% will not stay in the faith. The faith always had these lukewarm folks. You are basically just giving them a platform for a short time they identify as Christian. They are of no use because they did not come to faith with a repenting heart but instead had a urge to become part of a group. Continuing their sin is for most of them more important than turning for it, because they donnot have a repenting heart. So they want to twist and even rewrite the bible if possible. I tell you, they are not Christians and you are wasting your time on them hoping to lead them astray. 

There is no such thing as progressive Christianity. It's just the same lukewarm folk the faith had 2000 years ago. But nowadays atheists give them a church and online platforms hoping to lead them astray. You cannot lead them astray as they are not Christians. They already let themselves astray. You get it now? Their time in the faith has always been very short, a few years max.

 

It sounds like you have made your mind up without even being curious as to why others could hold different beliefs to you, or why I might choose to run a website like this when I am not what you would typically call a Christian.

I hold no 'grudge' against Christianity whatsoever, but you don't seem interested in understanding that.  You seem to think you understand me (you don't), but that's okay.  

From your post it would seem this website has nothing to offer you.  If you do wish to stay and participate, you are welcome.  But if you are simply going to post demeaning messages about other people's beliefs and choices, you will get banned. I would hide your post above in response to Tariki, but I think it's convenient to leave there to demonstrate how certain Christians are threatened by different points of view.  But future posts like the above from you will be deleted. Either participate here in good faith, as you signed up to, or go away.

Peace and goodwill.

Paul

 

 

[PaulS]

44 minutes ago, Divine_will said:

You donnot belief in the bible. You just want to be part of a group. Everyone sins, but you love your sin so much without any conviction of the spirit that you even want to rewrite the bible

I love you @tariki.  Thanks for participating here and being prepared to discuss Progressive Christianity!

[tariki]

1 hour ago, Divine_will said:

You donnot belief in the bible. You just want to be part of a group. Everyone sins, but you love your sin so much without any conviction of the spirit that you even want to rewrite the bible

I see no reason for you to claim this. I do not wish to rewrite anything. I simply understand the words in a way different from your own. 

All the best

 

[PaulS]

20 minutes ago, Divine_will said:

In the end there is only one way to understand the bible. Unless you take verses out of context, then you can make it fit everything you want. Putting stuff into a blender and adding water to the wine doesn't create a nice meal. If you can't cook then maybe you should refrain from the kitchen. Gods word is free anyway. No need to prepare it yourself

You're not the first type of Christian to say there is only one way to understand the bible, but i think you might be suprised to know that understanding the bible has been nothing BUT change throughout the times. Like this thread's initial posts tried to point out - God's people (Israelites) did not initially believe in an eternal hell - that is in fact a later development which was introduced by Greek thought around about the time that Daniel was written.

Context is EXACTLY the point that "bible-believing Christians" themselves most overlook.  This forum's not here to tell them how to believe these things, but rather this forum provides an opportunity for them to explore and understand their own Holy Book, better.

[tariki]

31 minutes ago, Divine_will said:

In the end there is only one way to understand the bible. Unless you take verses out of context, then you can make it fit everything you want. Putting stuff into a blender and adding water to the wine doesn't create a nice meal. If you can't cook then maybe you should refrain from the kitchen. Gods word is free anyway. No need to prepare it yourself

The context is for God to give. The spirit blows where it will. 

To simply presume, in a circular fashion (i.e. God reveals his true Word to the true believer, I am a true believer therefore he has revealed its true meaning to me) that one's own understanding is, in effect, infallible, is not a sign of either Faith or Grace, or of trust in God. It is more a sign of a trust in oneself.

All the best.

[PaulS]

I tried to suspend Divine Will for some pretty childish and adverse comments made both in posts and direct messages, but it seems I have deleted their account by mistake.  Sorry - it was just meant to be a suspension for 1 week.