Listening To Palestinians

[mystictrek]

+ Since Americans hear the story of the Palestinian plight so rarely, I thought I would post this letter from an anonymous European (I think) spending time in Palestine even though it is quite long. I don't agree with the belief expressed here that violence is justified but I do understand the rage and bitterness and I think all Americans need to deal with this.

 

I would certainly love to see the Palestinians use the non-violent methods of Gandhi & King but just because many have turned to violence does not mean that we should ignore their legitimate grievances.

 

Sorry that some of the interview material is not formatted as well as it could be.

 

+++

 

Letter from Palestine

Written by : anonymous

Last modified 2006-07-02 03:43

 

Somewhere in Palestine, July 1 — Morning came and we found that 90 of the nation's best men were captured by Israel from their homes in the night. Our mayor, who was released from four years in prison just a month ago. Someone for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration, as do his people here, political allies and opponents alike. And our vice mayor, too. The last time I talked with him, earlier this week, he was struggling a lot with chronic back pain. I wonder where they are now. If they have been fed today, or tortured. If they will sleep on beds tonight, or not at all. If they will be home tomorrow. If we will never see some of them again alive.

 

It's the first time Palestinians have captured an Israeli soldier in a long time; families of prisoners have begged the resistance not to release him until there is a prisoner exchange no matter what the consequences to the community—being well acquainted with the suffering that implies.

 

Everyone went about their business today, wedding processions in the streets, families eating icecream and watermelon in the sticky heat. Some with the heavy numb shock of loved ones vanished suddenly, shock without surprise; they expected that the price that has been paid, and paid, and paid, for keeping one's spirit from being broken, must be paid again. Myself, I couldn't keep from crying from time to time, although for me it is just a very small taste of the shock, seeing two good men that I know a little, powerful in their community with the power the community has entrusted them with, suddenly made helpless, pieces of meat for Israeli intelligence officers somewhere to enjoy, and knowing that if I knew them more, if I knew others, the sense of anger and sorrow and disbelief would be multiplied. I know that for the people around me these tears formed years and years ago. The anger and sorrow and loss and disbelief have happened too many times to count, but it does not diminish, to the world it is one more added to a large number, for each mother and sister and wife it is an unconsolable agony, an irreplaceable loss, an unimaginable theft, a violation of a family, a marriage, that might never be able to recover from the traumas and abuses that are being suffered, will be suffered in the days ahead.

 

Israel has over 10,000 Palestinian hostages, hundreds of them children, and slaughters Palestinians of any age on a daily basis. When Palestinians take 2 Israeli hostages and kill two soldiers, Israeli bombs Gaza. Bombs out the power stations, the water reticulation; no electricity, no water, bridges blasted severing cities from each other. Gaza Strip, the most densely populated area on earth on account of Israel using it as a specially designed human garbage can where refugees are disposed off and hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world. Brilliant, but unsuccessful. If you treat humans as garbage and they know that they are humans and not garbage, they will not quietly disappear. You will never sleep safe at night. You will never have the right to sleep safe at night. May you never sleep safe at night. A young woman in my neighborhood asked, can you believe Israel kidnapped most of our government last night? Imagine waking up to hear that Palestinian forces had kidnapped 90 Israeli government leaders. It's hard to imagine that Israel would leave one house standing, one person uninjured.

 

Imagine if Palestinians had the military capacity to punish Israel on a comparable scale for every two hostages it takes and two it kills. Imagine if Americans, and Europeans, valued the blood of Palestinians and Iraqis as much as their own blood. Imagine if the nations of the world used their armies to protect the lives of the innocent and bring to justice thieving, raping, murdering states.

 

A couple days ago I sat with someone I know, who was taken hostage last night. He explained part of Hamas' interpretation of the Qur'an as follows: there are three kinds of people that Muslims have to deal with. 1) Those who treat you with respect. In this case, it is a crime against God to treat them with anything but respect, kindness, and hospitality. In other words, if a Jew wanted to immigrate to Palestine with full respect for the people here, wishing to become a member of Palestinian society, he should be welcomed. 2) Then there are those who do not respect you, and oppose you. You have no obligation to extend hospitality to them. 3) Then there are those who have no respect for your humanity, your property or your religion, they take power over your land and your lives, destroy your land and kill your people. In this case you have an obligation to fight against them to protect your land and your people. If they kill your people, you can kill their people.

 

Today I visited with another friend who thinks he may be captured tonight; so many of his friends were captured last night. He said, Israel doesn't care too much about the lives of the Israeli hostages, in the past there were cases of them killing the hostages themselves by indiscriminate bombing of communities. But Israel has been waiting since Hamas' election for Hamas' first military operation, and so they knew this massive attack on the community would come, sooner or later. Even though different groups have participated in the Palestinian military operations in the past few days, all of Israel's targets are Hamas leaders. Israel wants to see Hamas destroyed, Europe and America want to see Hamas destroyed, and Abu Mazen seems to be trying his best to join them. Many of those arrested were among the Hamas members that Israel exiled to the no mans land between Israel and Lebanon, a decade ago.

 

He told me some of his friend's stories from those three terrible years, living in tents through snowy winters. He talked about the warm spirit that thrived in the tents during freezing months. He told of how hungry men went to an apricot orchard and couldn't find the owner, so they took some fruit and then tied some money in a handkerchief to the tree. When the owner found it, he tracked them down, and said to them, with tears coming down his face, what kind of men are you, starving and rejected by the world, who have such principles that you will not even take fruit that you find on a tree. I give you my fruit, I give you my orchards!

 

I felt the poverty of being from the West, where the media can say nothing about these men except to endlessly regurgitate simpleminded slander… of those captured I know just a few names, and little of their stories. For anyone here, each of these names represents a rich story, decades of struggles, of suffering, heroism, years of prison, of pain, of courage, of trying again, of hopes betrayed, of disappointment and endurance that continues forward to find new hope. We had this conversation over lunch in his daughter's home. She and her husband were active with Hamas and he was seized by Israel and killed in prison, leaving her with their three small children. Don't forget, it is America that gives Israel everything it needs to do this to us, she said. When we left, she and her three boys kissed him over and over, not knowing if tomorrow they will wake up to hear that her dad, their grandpa, has become a prisoner.

 

This week I spent with a French student, an orphan of war in Bangladesh, who is doing research on women's views of dignity. Dignity is a word thrown around a lot in international law but without definition; people have a "right to dignity" but since no one knows what it is, when it comes right down to it violations of this right cannot be prosecuted. I helped her interview dozens of women this week, from Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, poor and wealthy, educated and illiterate, young and old. We would sit down with strangers and as soon as dignity, al karame, was mentioned, the room burst into life with passionate opinions, terrible stories, and incredibly brave and inspiring statements.

 

Here are some of the things I heard about dignity.

 

There is no dignity in Palestine; we face humiliation at checkpoints, restriction from visiting our families or going to school, soldiers in our homes during the night, prison… Israel's war is first of all against our dignity which Israel attacks from every angle and with every means possible, because if it can succeed in destroying our dignity, we will not be able to resist anymore. There is tremendous dignity in Palestine; perhaps more than anywhere else in the world, because the occupation with all its mechanisms for humiliation makes us aware of our dignity; the more they try to destroy our dignity the stronger our dignity becomes; they are getting the opposite results that they want. There are two kinds of dignity: one that you get from others, when you are treated with dignity, the other comes from inside of you, from what you know about who you really are before God, and no one has the power to take this away from you unless you let them. Even if as women we are captured by Israel, stripped naked and raped in the prisons, if we resist every attack upon our dignity it will not be lost. A woman was told at a checkpoint to remove her scarf. She refused, and the soldier showed her a metal rod and said he would drive it through her eyes if she did not take it off. You can have your eyes, or you can have your dignity. She refused. He drove it through her eyes. She survived, but she is blind. And she did not lose her dignity. A friend of the Prophet Mohammad, a woman, was tied to the ground by a man who made her choose between her dignity or her life. The only thing she was able to do was to spit in his face, and she did. He killed her. But he did not destroy her dignity.

 

Arab people have a great source of dignity from the rich and deep history of our culture. But now all Arab lands are captive and only in Iraq and Palestine are we free within ourselves, because we do not accept the enslavement that is forced upon us; our resistance gives us great dignity.

 

We get our dignity from our land. It is our life. As long as we are in our land, no matter how much we suffer, we will have our dignity. If they succeed in expelling us to Jordan, our dignity will be lost forever. I have my family's olive trees. Every year I used to have precious olive oil from my own trees that I could give generously to my friends and neighbors. Now Israel has killed half of my trees and imprisoned the rest. These trees are like my own children. It is a terrible, terrible sorrow and shame for me each day to know that I am powerless to help them. Now, when we need olive oil for ourselves, we have to go to the store and buy it. But I was one who could generously give olive oil to my friends and relatives.

 

We get our dignity from Islam, as women, and as human beings. In our culture, before Islam, women were just seen as property, baby girls could be buried alive. We see women in many parts of the world who have no dignity. Islam has given us our full rights as women in every sense, and full equality with every other human being. In the Qur'an God says that he has given the same dignity to every human being—it does not depend on whether you are male or female, or whether you are Muslim or from another religion, each of us has the same worth.

 

What do you expect and hope for in the future?

 

Things will get much, much worse. It is written that we will suffer like this until near the end.

 

Our hope comes from knowing that Jesus will come back and will remove all injustice from the earth, and at last the race of mankind will be free to live in peace and equality.

 

What do you believe should be the political outcome for Palestine?

 

If only they would all go back where they came from, we could live in peace in our homes and land again.

 

We can never live with them; if someone has killed your children, can you accept them as a neighbor?

 

We already live with them, of course we can in the future.

 

We cannot live with them, we must have a state, and they must have a state. About all the refugees who have their homes and lands in Israel, I don't know……..

 

We can live with them in one state, the refugees must be given back their homes and their land.

 

If we have an Islamic state on all of Palestine, it is the only way we will be able to live together, us and them, because Islam is the only system where equality between people of different religions is protected.

 

Do you think negotiations or armed struggle is the best strategy at this time?

 

Of course, if we could get our rights back without violence, that would be the best way. If negotiations ever worked, then we should use that instead of armed struggle, but they have never produced anything. We have to keep fighting to protect our land and our community. How could it be right to do nothing when daily they are attacking our lives and our land?

 

As a woman would you participate in armed struggle?

 

I admire women who do, but I myself don't think I'm capable of it. My contribution is to study and be a good mother to my children.

 

No, I don't think women should carry weapons.

 

Yes! It would be a great honor to fight for my country!

 

Yes! How I wish we had the chance to be trained as soldiers like all the Israeli women are. I am not married yet, but I hope that one day I will have a son who will give his life for our country to be free. The Americans, Europeans and Israelis place more value on the blood of their dogs and cats than they do on the blood of Palestinians. None of us can ever forget the sight of little Huda screaming for her father on the beach of Gaza, throwing herself on the sand next to his dead body over and over. No one in the world has expressed their outrage, or even sorrow, to us about these atrocities against us. They care deeply about the Mundial, and Huda's agony is an interruption, a distraction, from the soccer score. Our blood is so, so cheap to the world, and Israeli blood is so valuable. They do not see our humanity at all.

 

How do you find your sense of your own humanity, when all the world is telling you your life, your death, your blood is worthless?

 

When it comes down to that, we know that God sees us, even if we are suffering in an Israeli torture chamber and no one in our family knows if where we are or if we are alive or dead, we know that God sees us and knows our value, our humanity. We belong to him, and in that is our worth, and our hope, our fates are in his hands and our lives are very precious to him, no matter how worthless they are to our brothers and sisters in the human race, and in the end, that is what matters. We know who we are. Our lives, our deaths, our suffering, our hopes, our disappointment, are not insignificant. Yesterday I met a new appointee from the German government in Jerusalem, a young guy with an American accent. He was happy that Hamas and Fatah had agreed on the Prisoners' Document. Great, we've gotten Hamas to recognize Israel, he said. Now we just have to get them to renounce armed struggle, and then get rid of these ideas of an Islamic state. The problem is when we bring democracy to the middle east, we always have to deal with the challenge of making sure there is a secular state when so many people want an Islamic state. (Jewish states, apparently, are just dandy.) What these Palestinians just don't understand, he said, is that armed struggle won't get them anywhere. Haven't they learned anything, after all these years? It's really hurting their image in the international community. Well, I said sarcastically, since you understand this so well, and none of the Palestinians have been able to grasp it, maybe you should explain it to them then. Oh, I am, every Palestinian I meet, he said with sincerity.

 

And what is that dazzling offer that Europe will extend, if Palestinians promise to sit on their hands and open their mouths? In exchange for your dignity, what? Maybe longlife, lifelong food rations? Maybe the chance to clean toilets in Israel, and the dream that your grandchildren could do the same?

 

I have not been here too long, but it is long enough to be sure of one thing: It is the Europeans, the Israelis, and the Americans who fail to grasp the central truth, after all these decades of trying to finetune the catastrophe they have engineered in Palestine: these women and men and children, who carry their heads so high, know who they are. They are prepared to sacrifice their lives, but they are not prepared to sacrifice their dignity. While the world discusses the moral or strategic aspects of armed resistance, there is no confusion about these issues here. Undefended, dignity—and the land—would be lost, and death would be better. With or without your permission, they will continue to fight.

 

(This letter was received by NECDP, New England Committee to Defend Palestine)

[flowperson]

 

flow....

[des]

In God's Politics, Jim Wallis writes movingly about the Palestinian plight. It's a terribly sad situation with

no winners, only losers.

 

--des

[loveapple]

The Israelis always seem to react in a disproportionate way to any provocation, making a bad situation much worse. If was a Palestinian I think I would feel a lot of hatred to Israel.

[mystictrek]

The Israelis always seem to react in a disproportionate way to any provocation, making a bad situation much worse. If was a Palestinian I think I would feel a lot of hatred to Israel.

 

That's for sure.

 

Here is what I posted on my blog today about the latest Israeli over-response:

 

+ WHEN WILL THEY (ISRAEL) EVER LEARN ... AND US TOO:

As Israel strikes Lebanon with overwhelming force I am thinking about the overall situation in that part of the world.

 

Israel has the fourth largest military in the world. This is mostly a gift provided by the United States of America. So, Israel believes it can always overwhelm any Arab attempt to strike at Israel. So far, they have been able to do this. Ever since 1948 and even before when some Jews were already moving into Arab land by force.

 

There are about 6 million Jewish citizens in Israel today and about 4 million Arabs in Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank. Beyond Israel and Gaza & the West Bank are about 200 million Arabs in many countries. Israel believes that it can gradually take over the West Bank forcing out the entire Arab population and then some day live at peace with its Arab neighbors. But the West Bank and particularly Jerusalem is considered Holy Land by Muslims. The chances of a long term Arab acceptance of a Jewish West Bank is extremely low. A much better approach would be the long overdue acceptance by Israel of an Arab (Palestinian) West Bank and a shared Jerusalem either by partition or making it an international city. I believe Muslims would accept this and live at peace with Israel as long as reparations were made by Israel to the Palestinians for lost land and lost lives going back 60 years and a total withdrawal from all the illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

 

Every Muslim knows that it is the United States which makes the Israel military second to none in the region. Most Muslims make the connection and consider the United States a legitimate target since they know that they are all targets of the Israeli military as long as the US is there to support Israel.

 

We -- the United States -- need to tell Israel to withdraw from the illegal settlements, withdraw completely from the West Bank, find a way to share Jerusalem and agree to reparations for 60 years of illegal death and destruction and occupation. The sooner the better.

[loveapple]

Here in the UK we certainly do not support Israel in the way that the US does. I think the Middle-East would be much better off if there was a more even handed approach on th epart of the US to the region. I suspect that the US may view Israel as the 'promised' land and therefore special!

[des]

I agree, loveapple.

 

I'm not sure that what you are sensing from the US is more of a recent thing. But

there is strong pretty much unilateral support for Israel, and no doubt funding by

Israeli interests, to both political parties. There is some current "promised land" sort

of thign going on. Fundamentalists who believe in the rapture (GW Bush I think)

have a special relationship to Jews in Isreal, as the rapture is supposed to happen

after Jews have rebuilt the temple (at which point Jesus comes and all Jews must

convert or die gruesome deaths). It's worrying, imo, to have political leaders with

these kinds of views. Not sure they have them- but if they do the current one sidedness

to Israel makes sense.

 

I think Clinton was more even-handed.

I feel that this administration is so one-sided towards Israel that they can't

see any provocative behaviors by Isreal at all. I feel this is an esp dangerous

situation. One country in the nuclear club that is more dangerous (ie more

likely to use the bomb than Iran, imo, is Israel). Not that I don't think Iran is

a more horrible place worse leaders and all, but that Israel has had a history

of using overwhelming force (as has the US for that matter).

 

 

--des

[jamesAMDG]

What a bunch of drivel.

 

Not only because it is an obvious fabrication for political and religious (Muslim) purposes. The pro-terrorist tone, for example the so-called author "hope that one day [the author] will have a son who will give his life for our country to be free" which is classic Arab doublespeak for suicide murderers. Watch the footage of a Hamas funeral, or a PLO funeral, or an Al-Aqsa funeral, etc. They are hailed as great heros whose portraits are hung throughout the neighbourhood. Disgusting.

 

How about the way in which the author casually states that negotiations have not accomplished anything? By the end of the Oslo Accords (which Terror-fat and his cronies never implemented even though the Israelis did) the Arabs so-called Palestinians who are in actuality Egyptians and Jordanians before those countries lost several wars in which Israel was the aggreived party) have been given over 90% of the land first promised to the Jews by the League of Nations and in the Treaty of Versailles. The Israelis have gone to the bargaining table knowing they can only hope for the peace of Saladin (ie: can be broken once Muslim strength has been reinforced and was used to push the Crusader armies out of the Holy Land)

 

The organisation which "received" the letter is clearly pro-terrorist. It explicitis denies the right of Israel to exist and advocates an "Any means necessary" approach. Which of the 8 points says blowing up a bus of children on their way to school is a holy act? Or how about breaking into a farm and gunning down everyone you find, men, women and children? Great friends you have there.

 

I'm not even going to bother going further. If someone can't this for the transparent Islamist, pro-Jihad, pro-Terrorist garbage it is, what can I possibly offer in reply? How do you explain colours to a blind man?

 

As a side note, what would be the "appropriate" response for Israel be when it's borders are violated, its citizens killed and kidnapped? Would it be appropriate for Israel to take hostages and murder them in a field like what happened to a young Jewish farmer recently? Or how about just threatenign to kill these hostages until Hamas, Hebollah, et al. release all of the kidnapped Israeli citizens? Would that be just? No of course not, kidnapping violates the inate human dignity of all peoples and yet is a fun new tactic for the Jihadis. How can you sleep at night defending these butchers?

 

The truly just course, which the Isrealis are taking, is to attack and destroy the terrorist infastructure, to starve the terrorists of the free movement, expression and funds they use to murder their own factional opponents and innocent Jews in Israel. Yes, mistakes happen, and war can be an ugly thing, but have you asked yourself why the Hamas leaders are always living in the middle floors of full apartment buildings, or surrounding themselves with children? They use human shields to make Israel look bad when it defends itself.

 

When Israeli soldiers commit real crimes they are tried for them in a court of law. When Arabs commit crimes under the PLO and Hamas they get a pat on the back, or they go to jail for a few weeks until the next amnesty. Arabs living in the so-called Palestinian terrorities have the right to appeal to the Supreme Court of Israel if they feel they are victims of injustice, they choose instead to become murderers. Israel has the righ tto defend it's integrity and the physical well-being of its citizens (Arab and Jew alike) and I shed no tears for murderers who hide behind children.

 

Shame on everyone who perpetuates this garbage.

[loveapple]

Sorry but the rest of the world sees it differently! Israel's reaction is totally over the top as usual ,and they are the author of their own woes to a large extent!

[jamesAMDG]

Sorry but the rest of the world sees it differently! Israel's reaction is totally over the top as usual ,and they are the author of their own woes to a large extent!

 

Which part of what I said was this meant to interact with?

 

"the rest of the world sees it differently"? How and why? You have given me no indication of what "the rest of the world" would consider an appropriate response to the daily provocations of kidnappings, killings and Katusha rockets from Hezbollah in Lebanon and Kassam rockets being fired by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa, et la. in Gaza. Or perhaps your only real solution is for the Jews to just lie down and suffer these crimes?

[loveapple]

Which part of what I said was this meant to interact with?

 

"the rest of the world sees it differently"? How and why? You have given me no indication of what "the rest of the world" would consider an appropriate response to the daily provocations of kidnappings, killings and Katusha rockets from Hezbollah in Lebanon and Kassam rockets being fired by Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa, et la. in Gaza. Or perhaps your only real solution is for the Jews to just lie down and suffer these crimes?

 

Israel is not the innocent in all this they are just as guilty as the Palestions! Of course the Islamic groups have behaved badly, but Israel has behaved very badly too. How on earth they think their response is going to stop the violence goodness only knows!

[flowperson]

James:

 

With all due respect many of us here have watched these never-ending conflicts among Semitic brothers and sisters for decades and are still mostly baffled by its root causes other than it's likely stemming from some sort of tribal conflict factor. Much of it, in my opinion, was rooted in Palestine at about the time of Germany's influences there during the WWI period.

 

Really, you are pretty much of a young pup in all of this, and only use the most expedient means to justify what you assert. You simply do not have the life experience or depth of knowledge to untangle the reasons behind all of this, so you satisy your lust for literary conflict by attacking what people, with more experience with the situation, and probably more knowledge about its history, write about it all. Of course you have the right to do that, but you must realize by now that your intrusions are fairly non-operative and do little to influence our views here.

 

I've suggested this elsewhere on TCPC before, but you should obtain and read a copy of James Michener's excellent novel, The Haj. Then come back and write a book report for us regarding its contents. Then maybe some of us would pay more attention to your thoroughly non-sequitor rants.

 

By the way, my favorite dictionary, a well-worn American Heritage that I still use when writing seriously, shows a preferred definition for the word "drivel" as, "To slobber, drool". And, secondarily, " To talk or utter stupidly, childishly, or senselessly."

 

Liquid oral emissions or speech were not involved in what led up to your post ( as far as I know ), but writing was; so, I believe that you used a word inappropriate to the situation that you wished to address.

 

Best regards,

 

flow....

[des]

I just heard on, I think Washington Week on PBS, that Sharon (sp?) negotiated trading a Hezbollah prisioner for an Iraeli one not terribly long ago. The new Prime Minister has no military experience, and appears to me to be "playing tough" for political purposes. As Dr. Phil might ask "Is it working for him". I think it is a truly frightening situation, and no good for Israelis either. Could anyone argue Israel is safer today?

 

I don't think any of us would argue that Islamics (I mean fundamentalist Islamic persons), El Qaeda, or Hezbollah are not terriorist or doing terrible things in the world. However, I am fully able to look at a situation like this and see it not in black and white (as our president does-- bad axis of evil vs Good US or God Israel). I think the world is crying out for the US, in particular, to be able to be fair when assessing situations like the Middle East.

 

BTW, I agree that others in the world may not share the US' version of the all pure well behaved Israel. Most of Europe for instance. If you watch BBC (on PBS), you will get a different view of the news than the big 3, CNN, etc.

 

--des

Edited July 15, 2006 by des

[jamesAMDG]

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner, was out of town for a few days.

 

flowperson:

 

You're right I can sometimes ramble. My emotions do occasionnaly get the best of me when I'm writing as I like to strike when the proverbial iron is hot. Please help me clear up a few things about your post, then I will distill my questions down from their "rambling" formats into something a little cleaer.

 

Really, you are pretty much of a young pup in all of this, and only use the most expedient means to justify what you assert. You simply do not have the life experience or depth of knowledge to untangle the reasons behind all of this [...] with more experience with the situation, and probably more knowledge about its history, write about it all.

 

Exactly how old do I need to be to defend Israel? Is this like one of those rides at the exhibition where you have to be a certain height?

 

Also, what do you know of my life, expereiences and "depth of knowledge"? I've read all the pre-requisite lefty stuff, Chomsky, Zinn, Ward Churchill, Naomi Klein, etc. and I wasn't convicned. Apparently you don't know me especially well and you give me this as your advice to, apparently, improve these things...

 

you should obtain and read a copy of James Michener's excellent novel, The Haj.

 

If I understand correctly, you are advising me to read anovel about the Muslim pilgrimmage to the Kabbah to be able to comment on the terrorism of Hamas and Hezbollah? I think I'll take a pass and I'll pass on the book report too, never liked them when I needed to them for marks, so I won't be doing one now for you.

 

My questions are:

 

1.) What would be an appropriate Israeli response to incursions accross Israeli borders from two peices of land they gave up in the "peace" process?

 

2.) Israel gave up this land voluntarily under the "land for peace" arrangement, their negotiating partners (PLO and Hamas in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon) have not kept their ends fo the bargain and are now attacking Israel with rockets and kidnappings.

 

3.) What possible purpose can obviously faked letters, from pro-terrorist websites, add to the conversation?

[loveapple]

.) What would be an appropriate Israeli response to incursions accross Israeli borders from two peices of land they gave up in the "peace" process?

 

 

It wasn't their land to give up, they were occuping it illegally!

[jamesAMDG]

Loveapple:

 

It wasn't their land to give up, they were occuping it illegally!

 

Gaza was part of the land which Israel captured from Egypt in one of the THREE illegal wars started by surrounding Arab states in the last 50 years which were all attempts to completely annihilate Israel. They were not occupying the land, they captured in wars they didn't start and used the land as a security buffer to prevent future attacks.

 

Those lands helped to create what is called "strategic depth" in military terms. This strategic depth is necessary so that the Israeli army has time to react before the next illegal war and attempted genocide against their people. The Israelis have given up some of this strategic depth to show that they have god faith intentions of living up to their end of the peace talks. But unfortuantely, their neighbours don't seem interested in peace (with the exception of sometimes Egypt and sometimes Jordan) regardless of the agreements that have been signed. This strategy si what is known as "land for peace" and it has been an utter failure as it has only enhanced the self-opinions of the terrorists who demanded the land in the first place as we have seen with the continued exhortations to violence of the PLO (and their refusal to amend their charter calling for the destruction of Israel), the rise of Hamas and the attacks of Hezbollah.

[Ted Michael Morgan]

+ Since Americans hear the story of the Palestinian plight so rarely, I thought I would post this letter from an anonymous European (I think) spending time in Palestine even though it is quite long. I don't agree with the belief expressed here that violence is justified but I do understand the rage and bitterness and I think all Americans need to deal with this.

 

I would certainly love to see the Palestinians use the non-violent methods of Gandhi & King but just because many have turned to violence does not mean that we should ignore their legitimate grievances.

 

Sorry that some of the interview material is not formatted as well as it could be.

 

+++

 

Letter from Palestine

Written by : anonymous

Last modified 2006-07-02 03:43

 

Somewhere in Palestine, July 1 — Morning came and we found that 90 of the nation's best men were captured by Israel from their homes in the night. Our mayor, who was released from four years in prison just a month ago. Someone for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration, as do his people here, political allies and opponents alike. And our vice mayor, too. The last time I talked with him, earlier this week, he was struggling a lot with chronic back pain. I wonder where they are now. If they have been fed today, or tortured. If they will sleep on beds tonight, or not at all. If they will be home tomorrow. If we will never see some of them again alive.

 

It's the first time Palestinians have captured an Israeli soldier in a long time; families of prisoners have begged the resistance not to release him until there is a prisoner exchange no matter what the consequences to the community—being well acquainted with the suffering that implies.

 

Everyone went about their business today, wedding processions in the streets, families eating icecream and watermelon in the sticky heat. Some with the heavy numb shock of loved ones vanished suddenly, shock without surprise; they expected that the price that has been paid, and paid, and paid, for keeping one's spirit from being broken, must be paid again. Myself, I couldn't keep from crying from time to time, although for me it is just a very small taste of the shock, seeing two good men that I know a little, powerful in their community with the power the community has entrusted them with, suddenly made helpless, pieces of meat for Israeli intelligence officers somewhere to enjoy, and knowing that if I knew them more, if I knew others, the sense of anger and sorrow and disbelief would be multiplied. I know that for the people around me these tears formed years and years ago. The anger and sorrow and loss and disbelief have happened too many times to count, but it does not diminish, to the world it is one more added to a large number, for each mother and sister and wife it is an unconsolable agony, an irreplaceable loss, an unimaginable theft, a violation of a family, a marriage, that might never be able to recover from the traumas and abuses that are being suffered, will be suffered in the days ahead.

 

Israel has over 10,000 Palestinian hostages, hundreds of them children, and slaughters Palestinians of any age on a daily basis. When Palestinians take 2 Israeli hostages and kill two soldiers, Israeli bombs Gaza. Bombs out the power stations, the water reticulation; no electricity, no water, bridges blasted severing cities from each other. Gaza Strip, the most densely populated area on earth on account of Israel using it as a specially designed human garbage can where refugees are disposed off and hermetically sealed off from the rest of the world. Brilliant, but unsuccessful. If you treat humans as garbage and they know that they are humans and not garbage, they will not quietly disappear. You will never sleep safe at night. You will never have the right to sleep safe at night. May you never sleep safe at night. A young woman in my neighborhood asked, can you believe Israel kidnapped most of our government last night? Imagine waking up to hear that Palestinian forces had kidnapped 90 Israeli government leaders. It's hard to imagine that Israel would leave one house standing, one person uninjured.

 

Imagine if Palestinians had the military capacity to punish Israel on a comparable scale for every two hostages it takes and two it kills. Imagine if Americans, and Europeans, valued the blood of Palestinians and Iraqis as much as their own blood. Imagine if the nations of the world used their armies to protect the lives of the innocent and bring to justice thieving, raping, murdering states.

 

A couple days ago I sat with someone I know, who was taken hostage last night. He explained part of Hamas' interpretation of the Qur'an as follows: there are three kinds of people that Muslims have to deal with. 1) Those who treat you with respect. In this case, it is a crime against God to treat them with anything but respect, kindness, and hospitality. In other words, if a Jew wanted to immigrate to Palestine with full respect for the people here, wishing to become a member of Palestinian society, he should be welcomed. 2) Then there are those who do not respect you, and oppose you. You have no obligation to extend hospitality to them. 3) Then there are those who have no respect for your humanity, your property or your religion, they take power over your land and your lives, destroy your land and kill your people. In this case you have an obligation to fight against them to protect your land and your people. If they kill your people, you can kill their people.

 

Today I visited with another friend who thinks he may be captured tonight; so many of his friends were captured last night. He said, Israel doesn't care too much about the lives of the Israeli hostages, in the past there were cases of them killing the hostages themselves by indiscriminate bombing of communities. But Israel has been waiting since Hamas' election for Hamas' first military operation, and so they knew this massive attack on the community would come, sooner or later. Even though different groups have participated in the Palestinian military operations in the past few days, all of Israel's targets are Hamas leaders. Israel wants to see Hamas destroyed, Europe and America want to see Hamas destroyed, and Abu Mazen seems to be trying his best to join them. Many of those arrested were among the Hamas members that Israel exiled to the no mans land between Israel and Lebanon, a decade ago.

 

He told me some of his friend's stories from those three terrible years, living in tents through snowy winters. He talked about the warm spirit that thrived in the tents during freezing months. He told of how hungry men went to an apricot orchard and couldn't find the owner, so they took some fruit and then tied some money in a handkerchief to the tree. When the owner found it, he tracked them down, and said to them, with tears coming down his face, what kind of men are you, starving and rejected by the world, who have such principles that you will not even take fruit that you find on a tree. I give you my fruit, I give you my orchards!

 

I felt the poverty of being from the West, where the media can say nothing about these men except to endlessly regurgitate simpleminded slander… of those captured I know just a few names, and little of their stories. For anyone here, each of these names represents a rich story, decades of struggles, of suffering, heroism, years of prison, of pain, of courage, of trying again, of hopes betrayed, of disappointment and endurance that continues forward to find new hope. We had this conversation over lunch in his daughter's home. She and her husband were active with Hamas and he was seized by Israel and killed in prison, leaving her with their three small children. Don't forget, it is America that gives Israel everything it needs to do this to us, she said. When we left, she and her three boys kissed him over and over, not knowing if tomorrow they will wake up to hear that her dad, their grandpa, has become a prisoner.

 

This week I spent with a French student, an orphan of war in Bangladesh, who is doing research on women's views of dignity. Dignity is a word thrown around a lot in international law but without definition; people have a "right to dignity" but since no one knows what it is, when it comes right down to it violations of this right cannot be prosecuted. I helped her interview dozens of women this week, from Fatah, Hamas, PFLP, poor and wealthy, educated and illiterate, young and old. We would sit down with strangers and as soon as dignity, al karame, was mentioned, the room burst into life with passionate opinions, terrible stories, and incredibly brave and inspiring statements.

 

Here are some of the things I heard about dignity.

 

There is no dignity in Palestine; we face humiliation at checkpoints, restriction from visiting our families or going to school, soldiers in our homes during the night, prison… Israel's war is first of all against our dignity which Israel attacks from every angle and with every means possible, because if it can succeed in destroying our dignity, we will not be able to resist anymore. There is tremendous dignity in Palestine; perhaps more than anywhere else in the world, because the occupation with all its mechanisms for humiliation makes us aware of our dignity; the more they try to destroy our dignity the stronger our dignity becomes; they are getting the opposite results that they want. There are two kinds of dignity: one that you get from others, when you are treated with dignity, the other comes from inside of you, from what you know about who you really are before God, and no one has the power to take this away from you unless you let them. Even if as women we are captured by Israel, stripped naked and raped in the prisons, if we resist every attack upon our dignity it will not be lost. A woman was told at a checkpoint to remove her scarf. She refused, and the soldier showed her a metal rod and said he would drive it through her eyes if she did not take it off. You can have your eyes, or you can have your dignity. She refused. He drove it through her eyes. She survived, but she is blind. And she did not lose her dignity. A friend of the Prophet Mohammad, a woman, was tied to the ground by a man who made her choose between her dignity or her life. The only thing she was able to do was to spit in his face, and she did. He killed her. But he did not destroy her dignity.

 

Arab people have a great source of dignity from the rich and deep history of our culture. But now all Arab lands are captive and only in Iraq and Palestine are we free within ourselves, because we do not accept the enslavement that is forced upon us; our resistance gives us great dignity.

 

We get our dignity from our land. It is our life. As long as we are in our land, no matter how much we suffer, we will have our dignity. If they succeed in expelling us to Jordan, our dignity will be lost forever. I have my family's olive trees. Every year I used to have precious olive oil from my own trees that I could give generously to my friends and neighbors. Now Israel has killed half of my trees and imprisoned the rest. These trees are like my own children. It is a terrible, terrible sorrow and shame for me each day to know that I am powerless to help them. Now, when we need olive oil for ourselves, we have to go to the store and buy it. But I was one who could generously give olive oil to my friends and relatives.

 

We get our dignity from Islam, as women, and as human beings. In our culture, before Islam, women were just seen as property, baby girls could be buried alive. We see women in many parts of the world who have no dignity. Islam has given us our full rights as women in every sense, and full equality with every other human being. In the Qur'an God says that he has given the same dignity to every human being—it does not depend on whether you are male or female, or whether you are Muslim or from another religion, each of us has the same worth.

 

What do you expect and hope for in the future?

 

Things will get much, much worse. It is written that we will suffer like this until near the end.

 

Our hope comes from knowing that Jesus will come back and will remove all injustice from the earth, and at last the race of mankind will be free to live in peace and equality.

 

What do you believe should be the political outcome for Palestine?

 

If only they would all go back where they came from, we could live in peace in our homes and land again.

 

We can never live with them; if someone has killed your children, can you accept them as a neighbor?

 

We already live with them, of course we can in the future.

 

We cannot live with them, we must have a state, and they must have a state. About all the refugees who have their homes and lands in Israel, I don't know……..

 

We can live with them in one state, the refugees must be given back their homes and their land.

 

If we have an Islamic state on all of Palestine, it is the only way we will be able to live together, us and them, because Islam is the only system where equality between people of different religions is protected.

 

Do you think negotiations or armed struggle is the best strategy at this time?

 

Of course, if we could get our rights back without violence, that would be the best way. If negotiations ever worked, then we should use that instead of armed struggle, but they have never produced anything. We have to keep fighting to protect our land and our community. How could it be right to do nothing when daily they are attacking our lives and our land?

 

As a woman would you participate in armed struggle?

 

I admire women who do, but I myself don't think I'm capable of it. My contribution is to study and be a good mother to my children.

 

No, I don't think women should carry weapons.

 

Yes! It would be a great honor to fight for my country!

 

Yes! How I wish we had the chance to be trained as soldiers like all the Israeli women are. I am not married yet, but I hope that one day I will have a son who will give his life for our country to be free. The Americans, Europeans and Israelis place more value on the blood of their dogs and cats than they do on the blood of Palestinians. None of us can ever forget the sight of little Huda screaming for her father on the beach of Gaza, throwing herself on the sand next to his dead body over and over. No one in the world has expressed their outrage, or even sorrow, to us about these atrocities against us. They care deeply about the Mundial, and Huda's agony is an interruption, a distraction, from the soccer score. Our blood is so, so cheap to the world, and Israeli blood is so valuable. They do not see our humanity at all.

 

How do you find your sense of your own humanity, when all the world is telling you your life, your death, your blood is worthless?

 

When it comes down to that, we know that God sees us, even if we are suffering in an Israeli torture chamber and no one in our family knows if where we are or if we are alive or dead, we know that God sees us and knows our value, our humanity. We belong to him, and in that is our worth, and our hope, our fates are in his hands and our lives are very precious to him, no matter how worthless they are to our brothers and sisters in the human race, and in the end, that is what matters. We know who we are. Our lives, our deaths, our suffering, our hopes, our disappointment, are not insignificant. Yesterday I met a new appointee from the German government in Jerusalem, a young guy with an American accent. He was happy that Hamas and Fatah had agreed on the Prisoners' Document. Great, we've gotten Hamas to recognize Israel, he said. Now we just have to get them to renounce armed struggle, and then get rid of these ideas of an Islamic state. The problem is when we bring democracy to the middle east, we always have to deal with the challenge of making sure there is a secular state when so many people want an Islamic state. (Jewish states, apparently, are just dandy.) What these Palestinians just don't understand, he said, is that armed struggle won't get them anywhere. Haven't they learned anything, after all these years? It's really hurting their image in the international community. Well, I said sarcastically, since you understand this so well, and none of the Palestinians have been able to grasp it, maybe you should explain it to them then. Oh, I am, every Palestinian I meet, he said with sincerity.

 

And what is that dazzling offer that Europe will extend, if Palestinians promise to sit on their hands and open their mouths? In exchange for your dignity, what? Maybe longlife, lifelong food rations? Maybe the chance to clean toilets in Israel, and the dream that your grandchildren could do the same?

 

I have not been here too long, but it is long enough to be sure of one thing: It is the Europeans, the Israelis, and the Americans who fail to grasp the central truth, after all these decades of trying to finetune the catastrophe they have engineered in Palestine: these women and men and children, who carry their heads so high, know who they are. They are prepared to sacrifice their lives, but they are not prepared to sacrifice their dignity. While the world discusses the moral or strategic aspects of armed resistance, there is no confusion about these issues here. Undefended, dignity—and the land—would be lost, and death would be better. With or without your permission, they will continue to fight.

 

(This letter was received by NECDP, New England Committee to Defend Palestine)

 

 

 

 

 

Roots of conflict with Europeans are older than the existence of modern Israel. If we think only short term without referral to the past, we miss the resonances that inflame Islamic resentment. The immediate problem, however, comes from the refusal of powerful people in the Islamic world to accord the right of Israel to its existence. Israel's national identity is no more precarious than is the existence of many modern Islamic states. We are all living the aftermath of European colonialism.

 

I do not accept that the response of Israel to the attacks on its soldiers is excessive or inappropriate. The enemies of Israel provoked the violence. They are responsible for what Israel has had to do to protect its interests. One has to realize that the so-called innocent objects of Israeli attacks live among the monsters that attack Israel. Those people need to bring the matter to the source of their problem--extremists who will not accept the fact of Israel.

 

Part of what is happening involves a shift in the relationships of different branches of Islam. Some Islamic groups need to realize that they are much closer to Israel than to their Muslim brothers. It is in the interest of most Muslims to accord Israel a right to exist.

 

However, excellent arguments that might undermine some of what I advocate exist. For example, I highly recommend that one read The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East by Robert Fisk. (Knopf, 2005). Clearly, we must resolve the just complaints of the Palestinians.

 

At this moment, that is beside the point. This is a chance to eliminate a terrorist organization and a chance to call the bluff of the thugs in Iran.

 

Israel has always sought to negotiate with Palestinians. Remember Israel's founders bought property in Palestine. They sought to create a state that tolerated Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people. The reaction of Palestinian extremists against this aim ignited the problems that have inflamed the region. The Arab League rejected the United Nations 1947 Partition Plan that Israel tentatively accepted. The problem today stems from that fateful rejection by Arab leaders.

 

In the current matter, Hezbollah's Sheik Nasrallah deliberately provoked the crisis. Ehud Olmert may or may not be a damm fool for responding as he has. Regardless, Israel has every right to react to kidnappings and missile attacks. As for Israel attacking civilians, remember that Hezbollah places its thousands of missiles in unmarked homes and garages.

 

Resolution of the immediate and current problems in Lebanon depends entirely upon the disarming of Hezbollah and the elimination of Sheik Nasrallah. Hezbollah nurtures the likes of Ehud Olmert.

 

Syria has recently massacred some 10,000 to 20,000 of its people in Hama. I believe that most of those people were civilians. That is something any humane and just person does abhor and condemn. Syria supports the thug Sheik Nasrallah and his gang of thugs Nezbollah.

I am concerned that Israel might over react to provocations. However, thus far, Israel has acted moderately in response to missile attacks and kidnappings.

Edited July 19, 2006 by Ted Michael Morgan

[loveapple]

"I am concerned that Israel might over react to provocations. However, thus far, Israel has acted moderately in response to missile attacks and kidnappings."

 

You reckon? I would have thought that Israel and Moderate was an oxymoron. Lebanon is devasted, many innocents killed. I would hate to see what they would do if they weren't being moderate

[jamesAMDG]

loveapple:

 

Again and again it is the same thing with no actual plan.

 

Sorry but the rest of the world sees it differently! Israel's reaction is totally over the top as usual ,and they are the author of their own woes to a large extent!

 

It wasn't their land to give up, they were occuping it illegally!

 

You reckon? I would have thought that Israel and Moderate was an oxymoron. ohmy.gif Lebanon is devasted, many innocents killed. I would hate to see what they would do if they weren't being moderate mad.gif

 

Will you ever actually put forward what you think would be a proportionate response or will you just sit back and say that the Jews shouldn't fight the people trying to destroy them and their state? You didn't respond to the needs of Israel for strategic depth necessary in thier defense and you haven't answered why a politically motivated fake letter can or should be used at all in this type of conversation?

 

Do you have anything to contribute other than blandly insisting that the Jews quietly suffer kidnappings, invasions and rocket attacks?

 

Let's go a step further and change the players. If French suddenly decided to start shelling say, London, what would be an appropriate response for the British government to take? Or, more apropos to the situation in Lebanon, what if an armed group (who was coincidentally part of the government - or in Gaza where a terrorist organisation IS the government) started to shell London while the French government sat idly by? What would be an appropriate reaction?

 

flow:

 

I don't know if you are realy gone or not but I missed this the first time.

By the way, my favorite dictionary, a well-worn American Heritage that I still use when writing seriously, shows a preferred definition for the word "drivel" as, "To slobber, drool". And, secondarily, " To talk or utter stupidly, childishly, or senselessly."

 

Liquid oral emissions or speech were not involved in what led up to your post ( as far as I know ), but writing was; so, I believe that you used a word inappropriate to the situation that you wished to address.

 

It seems you are really intent on playing my teacher, first the book reports and now a english lesson.

 

Here at dictionary.com you can find the entry for drivel. It should be noted firstly that I used drivel as a noun and not a verb, so the definitions you gave (all being verbs) are contextually incorrect. Secondly, the first definition as a noun is

 

n 1: a worthless message [syn: garbage]

 

I stand by my use of the word drivel, but if you insist I could probably modify to simply "trash" if that would be clearer.

Edited July 22, 2006 by jamesAMDG

[loveapple]

loveapple:

 

Again and again it is the same thing with no actual plan.

Will you ever actually put forward what you think would be a proportionate response or will you just sit back and say that the Jews shouldn't fight the people trying to destroy them and their state? You didn't respond to the needs of Israel for strategic depth necessary in thier defense and you haven't answered why a politically motivated fake letter can or should be used at all in this type of conversation?

 

Do you have anything to contribute other than blandly insisting that the Jews quietly suffer kidnappings, invasions and rocket attacks?

 

Let's go a step further and change the players. If French suddenly decided to start shelling say, London, what would be an appropriate response for the British government to take? Or, more apropos to the situation in Lebanon, what if an armed group (who was coincidentally part of the government - or in Gaza where a terrorist organisation IS the government) started to shell London while the French government sat idly by? What would be an appropriate reaction?

 

flow:

 

I don't know if you are realy gone or not but I missed this the first time.

It seems you are really intent on playing my teacher, first the book reports and now a english lesson.

 

Here at dictionary.com you can find the entry for drivel. It should be noted firstly that I used drivel as a noun and not a verb, so the definitions you gave (all being verbs) are contextually incorrect. Secondly, the first definition as a noun is

I stand by my use of the word drivel, but if you insist I could probably modify to simply "trash" if that would be clearer.

 

 

James you are entitled to your opinion, just as the rest of us are enttiled to ours. If Israel was just exterminating Hezbollah then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with that, but of course it is the civilian population that are getting hurt and killed, mainly children and that I do have a problem with. I have an even bigger problem with Bush who vetoed stem cell research as he didn't approve of the use of embryos, but is quite happy for foreign children to be killed so Israel can pursue its aims! We all know that if the USA said, 'HALT', Israel, the 51st State, would do just that! I also have a big problem with Tony Blair, who is the poodle of Bush and goes along with everything the US does, however terrible! Power has gone to that man's head, but the majority of the British public are not in favour of Israel's actions! Hopefully when Blair is no longer PM Brtiain and the US will not be as close where foreign policy is concerned!

[October's Autumn]

When I went to Israel I got some different perspectives on the version the Media/Politians likes to put on it.

 

The everyday people want peace. I don't think they care too much about the land being split and they get along pretty well. It is the extremists who cause most of the problems. Palestinans (pardon my spellings) want equal rights -- currently they are second class citizens. And they all just really want to raise their families, send their kids to college, see their grandchildren, etc.

 

General rule of thumb: Don't believe anything the media says, they just want to make money by selling sensationalism.

 

Here in the UK we certainly do not support Israel in the way that the US does. I think the Middle-East would be much better off if there was a more even handed approach on th epart of the US to the region. I suspect that the US may view Israel as the 'promised' land and therefore special!

 

Bingo! Don't think Bush isn't interested because he thinks that he is going to usher in the end of times by starting wars in the Middle East!

[DCJ]

I have an even bigger problem with Bush who vetoed stem cell research as he didn't approve of the use of embryos, but is quite happy for foreign children to be killed so Israel can pursue its aims!

I'm afraid that you're comparing apples and oranges here... He vetoed embryonic stem cell research because he doesn't believe in taxpayer dollars funding the destruction of human life for the harvesting of their parts. He no doubt is saddened by the innocent life lost in Lebanon, but as James has pointed out (and which you still have yet to address), it's the terrorists who are hiding behind civilians as they launch rockets indiscriminately at Israel. It's the terrorists whose hands are bloody.

 

We can argue about whether Israel is going too far, but saying Bush is "happy" with civilian death is just specious.

[jamesAMDG]

loveapple:

 

James you are entitled to your opinion, just as the rest of us are enttiled to ours.

 

Agreed. But I will ask again, please give reasons for your opinions, perhaps even a few suggestions for ways that Israel's policies could achieve the ends you advocate. If Israel isn't being "moderate" or "proportionate" please explain to me what actions would fall within these categories. Saying someone is wrong, without proposing anything else isn't exactly debate.

 

If Israel was just exterminating Hezbollah then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with that, but of course it is the civilian population that are getting hurt and killed, mainly children and that I do have a problem with.

 

Do you have any particular sources to back up your claim that it is mostly children who are being hurt or killed in Lebanon?

 

If you want to know one of the main reasons for civilian casualties you should read this article from the Jerusalem Post. Or this article on Ynet about Hezbollah preventing civilians from leaving the areas of combat. It seems to me that if Hebollah was at all concerned about women and children and other non-combatants they would let them leave instead of using them as human shields.

[loveapple]

loveapple:

Agreed. But I will ask again, please give reasons for your opinions, perhaps even a few suggestions for ways that Israel's policies could achieve the ends you advocate. If Israel isn't being "moderate" or "proportionate" please explain to me what actions would fall within these categories. Saying someone is wrong, without proposing anything else isn't exactly debate.

Do you have any particular sources to back up your claim that it is mostly children who are being hurt or killed in Lebanon?

 

If you want to know one of the main reasons for civilian casualties you should read this article from the Jerusalem Post. Or this article on Ynet about Hezbollah preventing civilians from leaving the areas of combat. It seems to me that if Hebollah was at all concerned about women and children and other non-combatants they would let them leave instead of using them as human shields.

 

 

Israel always makes the excuse that innocent people get hurt because Hezbollah is operating in civilian areas! Israel should not be targetting those areas, but then Israel is no better than Hezbollah imo! The Americans are getting their 51st state to do their dirty work, and Blair is going along with it. Most of the British public don't support Israel, I suspect! Israel should never have been created imo. The Palestinians should have been given a state too. Don't forget zionist terrorism forced the issue, they were fighting for what they saw as their right to a state. Sound familiar? Isn't that what the Palestinians are doing? I suspect that if the holocaust hadn't happened, a truly disgusting blot on the 20th Century, Israel would not have been created. I think the guilt engendered by the death of so many millions of Jews was the pressure that led the British to give into the zionist thugs!

 

Hezbollah and Israel deserve each other, they are both beyond the pale, neither side seeming to care how many of the otherside's inncocents they kill and maim. I just wish we could send the warring combatants to some distant planet where they could kill each other with impunity, then the world could forget about them and their angst!

[flowperson]

Israel always makes the excuse that innocent people get hurt because Hezbollah is operating in civilian areas! Israel should not be targetting those areas, but then Israel is no better than Hezbollah imo! The Americans are getting their 51st state to do their dirty work, and Blair is going along with it. Most of the British public don't support Israel, I suspect! Israel should never have been created imo. The Palestinians should have been given a state too. Don't forget zionist terrorism forced the issue, they were fighting for what they saw as their right to a state. Sound familiar? Isn't that what the Palestinians are doing? I suspect that if the holocaust hadn't happened, a truly disgusting blot on the 20th Century, Israel would not have been created. I think the guilt engendered by the death of so many millions of Jews was the pressure that led the British to give into the zionist thugs!

 

Hezbollah and Israel deserve each other, they are both beyond the pale, neither side seeming to care how many of the otherside's inncocents they kill and maim. I just wish we could send the warring combatants to some distant planet where they could kill each other with impunity, then the world could forget about them and their angst!

 

loveapple:

 

Maybe that's how they both arrived here on earth 5,300 years ago.

 

flow....