Listening To Palestinians

[loveapple]

loveapple:

 

Maybe that's how they both arrived here on earth 5,300 years ago.

 

flow....

 

 

[flowperson]

loveapple:

 

We used to get a public television show in the US called the Red and Green Show. It featured two Canadian guys wearing red and green plaid outfits who mostly sat around talking about hunting trips, killing animals, and about recipies for cooking what they killed and subsequently ate. Really hilarious, but I haven't seen it on for sometime. Did that make it across the pond to the UK? We have quite a few of your comedies on over here.

 

Maybe one of the middle east channels could revamp the concept and do a comedy of the same sort satirizing the warfare follies we're forced to watch on the daily news. It could be called, perhaps, Middle East Mash ?

 

flow....

[October's Autumn]

I'm afraid that you're comparing apples and oranges here... He vetoed embryonic stem cell research because he doesn't believe in taxpayer dollars funding the destruction of human life for the harvesting of their parts. He no doubt is saddened by the innocent life lost in Lebanon, but as James has pointed out (and which you still have yet to address), it's the terrorists who are hiding behind civilians as they launch rockets indiscriminately at Israel. It's the terrorists whose hands are bloody.

 

We can argue about whether Israel is going too far, but saying Bush is "happy" with civilian death is just specious.

 

 

Bull PUCKEY! Bush doesn't care about human life or he wouldn't have started a war. I can't believe you can still defend the EVIL man in the White house. Blindness.

[loveapple]

loveapple:

 

We used to get a public television show in the US called the Red and Green Show. It featured two Canadian guys wearing red and green plaid outfits who mostly sat around talking about hunting trips, killing animals, and about recipies for cooking what they killed and subsequently ate. Really hilarious, but I haven't seen it on for sometime. Did that make it across the pond to the UK? We have quite a few of your comedies on over here.

 

Maybe one of the middle east channels could revamp the concept and do a comedy of the same sort satirizing the warfare follies we're forced to watch on the daily news. It could be called, perhaps, Middle East Mash ?

 

flow....

 

I haven't seen the one you mentioned but we have similar satire shows.

[jamesAMDG]

Good to be back after a short hiatus, needed some time for chillling with my friends, playing cards, all the good stuff.

 

loveapple:

 

Israel always makes the excuse that innocent people get hurt because Hezbollah is operating in civilian areas! Israel should not be targetting those areas, but then Israel is no better than Hezbollah imo!

 

Are you saying then that by allowing their citizens to be indiscrimantely attacked Israel would be setting a better example? How else should Israel deal with an enemy force which targets its civilians while hiding behind Lebanese civilians? How can peace be acheived given Hezbollah's very public aims (ie: the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews into the Sea?)

 

Israel should never have been created imo.

 

I guess that answers my last question to a certain degree. Given this opposition to Israel's existence, what should be done now?

 

The Palestinians should have been given a state too.

 

They were offered one, but Terror-fat knew that peace with Israel would mean a coup against him by the Islamofacist thugs within Fatah, the PLO at large, Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, Islamic Jihad and the rest of their cronies. SO instead he diverted Palestinian Arab attention by launching another intifada.

 

Don't forget zionist terrorism forced the issue, they were fighting for what they saw as their right to a state. Sound familiar? Isn't that what the Palestinians are doing? [...] I think the guilt engendered by the death of so many millions of Jews was the pressure that led the British to give into the zionist thugs!

 

Zionist terrorism? Would that be the Jews who tried to buy land legally from Arabs living in what has been variously known as Israel and Palestine but weren;t allowed to because it was ILLEGAL under Jordanian law to sell land to Jews? Or were the zionist thugs and terrorists the ones who fought back against the armed gangs organised by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (You know, the one who supported Hitler and organised Arab brigades to fight for him?) Even if your history weren't wrong, the moral equication you make between two armed groups facing off and blowing up children on the way to school disqualifies anything you say from serious consideration.

 

Hezbollah and Israel deserve each other, they are both beyond the pale, neither side seeming to care how many of the otherside's inncocents they kill and maim.

 

Untrue, if and when mistakes are made, as they can be in the "fog of war" Israel a.) apologizes and recognizes their faults, b.) investigates soldiers accused of crimes against terrorists and those unlucky enough to be forced into shielding them c.) gives rights to the Arabs who live inside Israel and Gaza as well as Judea and Samaria which surpasses the rest fo the Arab world. When Hezbollah (and Hamas for that matter) kill civilians they dance around in the streets with Korans held high giving candy to children.

 

October's Autumn:

 

Bull PUCKEY! Bush doesn't care about human life or he wouldn't have started a war. I can't believe you can still defend the EVIL man in the White house. Blindness.

 

You do understand what specious means right? Because after quoting what DCJ said about specious arguments you have simply cranked yours up to 11.

 

Are you saying that ALL WAR is caused and prosecuted by evil men? I hope not, as some wars are necessary because they prevent and vert greater evils. A classic example would be the Second World War. Fighting against Hitler militarily was necessary as diplomacy had clearly been shown to be useless. By fighting, the Allied powers prevented a much greater evil from beign perpetrated throughout the world by averting the world-wide establishment of the Third Reich.

 

You may call it blindness to defend some of GWB actions, but I think Albert Enistein might consider the methods of the anti-war left to be insanity.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Let the ghost of Chamberlain rest. There will be no peace in our time until those who desire and attempt to destroy us utterly fail or utterly succeed. Which side are you on?

 

p.s. - The show you are describing is called "Red Green", written by and starring Steve Smith amongst others, it was actually not Public Access but rather produced by our State run broadcaster (my tax dollars at work ) to have the look and feel of Public Access.

[loveapple]

Good to be back after a short hiatus, needed some time for chillling with my friends, playing cards, all the good stuff.

 

loveapple:

Are you saying then that by allowing their citizens to be indiscrimantely attacked Israel would be setting a better example? How else should Israel deal with an enemy force which targets its civilians while hiding behind Lebanese civilians? How can peace be acheived given Hezbollah's very public aims (ie: the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews into the Sea?)

I guess that answers my last question to a certain degree. Given this opposition to Israel's existence, what should be done now?

They were offered one, but Terror-fat knew that peace with Israel would mean a coup against him by the Islamofacist thugs within Fatah, the PLO at large, Hamas, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, Islamic Jihad and the rest of their cronies. SO instead he diverted Palestinian Arab attention by launching another intifada.

Zionist terrorism? Would that be the Jews who tried to buy land legally from Arabs living in what has been variously known as Israel and Palestine but weren;t allowed to because it was ILLEGAL under Jordanian law to sell land to Jews? Or were the zionist thugs and terrorists the ones who fought back against the armed gangs organised by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (You know, the one who supported Hitler and organised Arab brigades to fight for him?) Even if your history weren't wrong, the moral equication you make between two armed groups facing off and blowing up children on the way to school disqualifies anything you say from serious consideration.

Untrue, if and when mistakes are made, as they can be in the "fog of war" Israel a.) apologizes and recognizes their faults, b.) investigates soldiers accused of crimes against terrorists and those unlucky enough to be forced into shielding them c.) gives rights to the Arabs who live inside Israel and Gaza as well as Judea and Samaria which surpasses the rest fo the Arab world. When Hezbollah (and Hamas for that matter) kill civilians they dance around in the streets with Korans held high giving candy to children.

 

October's Autumn:

You do understand what specious means right? Because after quoting what DCJ said about specious arguments you have simply cranked yours up to 11.

 

Are you saying that ALL WAR is caused and prosecuted by evil men? I hope not, as some wars are necessary because they prevent and vert greater evils. A classic example would be the Second World War. Fighting against Hitler militarily was necessary as diplomacy had clearly been shown to be useless. By fighting, the Allied powers prevented a much greater evil from beign perpetrated throughout the world by averting the world-wide establishment of the Third Reich.

 

You may call it blindness to defend some of GWB actions, but I think Albert Enistein might consider the methods of the anti-war left to be insanity.

Let the ghost of Chamberlain rest. There will be no peace in our time until those who desire and attempt to destroy us utterly fail or utterly succeed. Which side are you on?

 

p.s. - The show you are describing is called "Red Green", written by and starring Steve Smith amongst others, it was actually not Public Access but rather produced by our State run broadcaster (my tax dollars at work ) to have the look and feel of Public Access.

 

 

Quite frankly, although it pains me to say it, I really hope that Israel gets a bloody nose this time, and has as much damage inflicted on that unholy state as it has inflicted on Lebanon, then it might not be so gungho in future!

[MOW]

OK October, What logical fallacy is James commiting here .

 

i.e. If you're against the Iraq War you must be against all war. It took a war to get rid of Hitler. Therefore if you're against Iraq war you would have been for Hitler.

 

I think it's either Ad Hominam(circumstantial) , or the Equivalency Fallacy( i.e Shaqille O'Neil is tall. Mount Everest is tall . Therefore Shaquille O'Neil is the same height as Mount Everest because they're both tall.)

 

I think you said ,one time, that you were big on logical fallacies, and knew their names.

 

 

MOW

[Quaker Way]

War is simply political economy in another form.

[jamesAMDG]

love:

 

Quite frankly, although it pains me to say it, I really hope that Israel gets a bloody nose this time, and has as much damage inflicted on that unholy state as it has inflicted on Lebanon, then it might not be so gungho in future!

 

"unholy state"??

 

Can you please explain to me why GWB, Tony Blair, etc. are evil for wanting to bomb terrorists but you are good for wishing harm to Israel?

 

MOW:

 

i.e. If you're against the Iraq War you must be against all war. It took a war to get rid of Hitler. Therefore if you're against Iraq war you would have been for Hitler.

 

It should be noted, in my defense, that I never actually said that. I haven't brought up the war in Iraq at all in this thread. I haven't done this for two reasons i.) The Iraqi war is a much more mixed bag, motives, intelligence and tactics ii.) No one else brought it up.

 

My point was that the spirit of Chamberlain's "Peace in Our Time" is the same peace that is being asked for by the anti-Israel side. Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, et al. are totalitarian groups who do not hesitate to use violence to further their ends. Neither are they interested in any real peace with Israel. You can see it on PLO television where puppets extoll the virtues of martyrdom (ie: suicide bombing) to children. Or in the mouthpiece front groups that chant inaneries like "Palestine will be free, From the [Jordan] River to the Sea" (ie: Israel will be wiped off the map). You can see it in the response of Yasser Terrorfat to the Oslo Accords, where he was offered a state by Israel and nearly all his other demands were met. He responded by launching the second Intifada.

 

These groups do not want peace. They want to destroy Israel. They want to destroy the West. Go ahead, read their speeches, their books and watch their mouthpeice front groups in action.

 

That is why I said there will be no peace until the West is victorious or destroyed. There can be no appeasement because they do not desire compromise. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[des]

I'm finding myself disagreeing a lot-- both with the radically anti-Isreal statements and

the radically anti-Lebanon statements. I think that sojo.net had an excellent article

on the whole sorry affair.

 

I'm quoting the whole thing here, as I was going to give you all the link, but I couldnt' get it

to load (sojo.net seems to be having some problems):

 

--des

 

 

--------------

 

The body of Christ in Lebanon

by Jim Wallis

 

Like many of you, I have been glued to CNN and other cable news channels and feeling my heart broken by the vivid scenes of war's devastation and human suffering in the Middle East. We mourn this violence and, habitually, pray for peace. But what does that mean? What is the context and why is this happening?

 

 

Let me first say that I affirm Israel's existence and its right to live in peace and security. Let me also say that I believe Hezbollah has provoked this current crisis. Since the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah has built a stockpile of thousands of rockets, continued attacks on Israel, and then, recently, kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.

 

 

 

 

 

So we start by condemning kidnapping and Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli civilians. Hezbollah is a militant organization and movement that uses terrorism, i.e., it deliberately carries out lethal violence against innocent civilians. And no matter what the grievances or injustices, deliberate violence against civilians must be universally and unequivocally condemned as what a group of Palestinian intellectuals after 9/11 called a "short path to hell." Killing innocent civilians (often families and children) is evil and must be steadfastly opposed, and in response to such ugly violence we must draw a clear line in the sand. Further, Hezbollah is an organization that does not recognize Israel's right to exist and has vowed to destroy it. So let's be clear, by kidnapping Israeli soldiers and attacking Israeli cities with rocket attacks aimed directly at civilians, Hezbollah provoked this latest war.

 

 

Jan Egeland, the U.N. under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs, who has been critical of Israel's "disproportionate" response, has also assailed Hezbollah's tactics: "Consistently, from the Hezbollah heartland, my message was that Hezbollah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children."

 

 

Hezbollah's rocket attacks into northern Israel have killed 19 civilians and injured hundreds more. But the disproportionate Israeli air strikes in Lebanon, with their horrible death toll among civilians with nothing to do with Hezbollah must also be condemned. The latest estimate is more than 400 Lebanese civilians killed, with the needless destruction of the country's infrastructure, which took 15 years to rebuild after the devastating civil war. Israel has gone after Hezbollah, but is destroying Lebanon and, don't forget, its fledgling democracy. And let there be no double standards when it comes to how we label "terrorist" acts. When a nation state, such as Israel, carries out military policies which it knows will kill many civilians, including the use of cluster bombs, and deliberately targets civilian infrastructures and areas, does not the label also apply?

 

 

This week, Ze'ev Maoz, an Israeli professor, wrote in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy ..." Another Haaretz columnist, Gideon Levy, wrote, "This war must be stopped now and immediately. From the start it was unnecessary, even if its excuse was justified, and now is the time to end it. Every day raises its price for no reason, taking a toll in blood that gives Israel nothing tangible in return."

 

The U.S. has provided no real leadership thus far, being unwilling to embrace the international call for a ceasefire. It has rather been Israel's major supporter and has expedited the shipment of additional weapons. I also believe that the U.S. invasion of Iraq has, inadvertently, contributed to the ascendancy of Iran and radical Islam in the region. Robert Kuttner, of The American Prospect magazine, who has been a constant critic of the U.S. war in Iraq, recently wrote: "Bush did not create radical Islamism, but he certainly gave it a boost. The point is not that the rulers of Iran, the Baghdad suicide bombers, and the fanatics of Hamas and Hezbollah are misunderstood good folks who need only a na?ve olive branch from the west. On the contrary, these forces menace everything modern and democratic. They must be stopped, not appeased. The issue is the most practical and effective way of containing them." And that is indeed the issue.

 

 

Ultimately, the U.S. must take an active role in helping to negotiate a ceasefire and prisoner release, in the creation and deployment of an international force on the Israel-Lebanon border, and in aiding in the enormous humanitarian crisis that has resulted (the World Health Organization estimates 860,000 people have been displaced.) And, if the situation is not to spiral out of control in a wider regional war, the U.S. must also talk to Iran and Syria. The whole idea of diplomacy is trying to talk to your enemies and not just your friends.

 

For Christians there are also deeper issues involved regarding faith and the body of Christ. It's time for American Christians to start listening to Christians and churches in the Middle East, and Lebanon would be a good place to start. How many American Christians even know that Lebanon has had, for much of its history, a sizable number of Christians? Current estimates are 1.5 million Christians, or 40% of the population - which means there are fellow Christians potentially affected as casualties and refugees by the U.S. backed Israeli military attacks. It's time to challenge the theology of Christian Zionism advanced by many of the American Religious Right who are completely uncritical of Israel's behavior and totally oblivious to the sufferings (or even the existence) of Arab Christians in the Middle East. These Arab Christians may not be sympathetic to the tactics of Hezbollah, but they are certainly not supportive of the highly disproportionate military responses of Israel which now target their own families and fellow Arab Christians. Where is the American church's solidarity with them? In the Middle East battles between Islamic terrorism and Israeli military attacks, the perspective of Middle Eastern churches might indeed provide a much needed third perspective. I recommend an important dialogue in the online version of Christianity Today with Christian Arabs from the region. It's time to listen to some new voices.

 

 

The people of Israel, Lebanon, and Palestine have suffered enough. It's time for immediate action by the U.S. and the world community to achieve a situation in which Israel, Lebanon, and Palestine are secure and viable states living side-by-side in peace.

[loveapple]

When Israel was created there was a fatal flaw for which the creators of that country are responsible. The Palestinians had just as much right to their own state as the Israelis. I think if I was lving next door to Israel I might feel as their neighbours do!

 

At one time I supported Israel but no longer. What I see on my TV screen convinces me that Israel is indeed an unholy and pariah state, and if their God really supports the country as some would have us believe then God is a pariah diety!

[flowperson]

Ditto loveapple:

 

IMHO Israel is reacting these days in paranoid and irrational ways, and the net result is mostly the death and suffering of innocent people, not terrorists.

 

flow....

[loveapple]

Ditto loveapple:

 

IMHO Israel is reacting these days in paranoid and irrational ways, and the net result is mostly the death and suffering of innocent people, not terrorists.

 

flow....

 

 

You are right, Israel doesn't seem to be killing Hezbollah just the poor innocent bystanders. I think both sides can be accused of terrorism!

[des]

>You are right, Israel doesn't seem to be killing Hezbollah just the poor innocent bystanders. I think both sides can be accused of terrorism!

 

 

I think both sides can easily be acused of terrorism. I think Wallis' article is quite clear on that.

They not only are killing civilians but also bombing out the infrastructure of Lebanon. Quite useful

for terrorists true but also needed for the civilian population of Lebanon!! I don't know exactly how

all this figures in winning hearts and minds of Lebanese either.

 

 

But I do agree with Wallis in making clear that Hezbollah actions are terrorist. I think a "soft" liberal side

on this, does not help us advance our case any. I think the cease fire shoulda been weeks ago.

 

 

--des

[mystictrek]

The propaganda we have heard incessantly for generations has made us all quite immune to the truth. Even those who are critical of Israel tend to dismiss the Arab point of view because we hardly ever hear it and when we do it is usually distorted beyond comprehension. We hear and see the anger but never grasp the context of that anger.

 

Even here on this forum a critic of Israel said that it would be OK to exterminate Hezbollah. That was the word used. How about an effort to understand the legitimate grievances of Arabs even if we don't approve of their use of violence. Should the Israeli military be exterminated? I would rather have us talk to the people who think violence is necessary on both sides, hear them out, work at seeking justice, work at reconciliation. Hezbollah is a response to Israeli aggression in Lebanon which is nothing new. IT has been going on ver since 1948. Did you know that?

 

So many Americans are totally ignorant that Bush & Blair & Ohlmert can get away with murder again and again and again. The US & the UK & Israel are rightly blamed for much of the violence in the Middle East.

 

No I don't think the Arab point of view is totally right. But it's not totally wrong either. We should actually try to listen to Arabs. Wouldn't that be something?

 

What happened in 1917 is relevant. What happened in 1947 & 1948 is relevant. In 1917, Great Britain decided it could tell the Arabs that they would no longer have control of a certain part of Palestine. This was the Balfour Declaration.

 

In 1948 Israel came into being through violence. The case can be made with great authority that the Jewish armies of the 40s stole a lot of land and resources from the native Arabs and killed a lot of people and destroyed a lot of homes and farms too. The land which became Israel was far bigger than the United Nations plan of 1947 had offered. This is relevant. Realizing the mistreatment of the native Arab population, known even then as the Palestinians, which began even before 1948 but really escalated at that time is very important. It is shocking that few Americans know or care. Ever since 1948 the land and resources stolen has grown by leaps and bounds and is still going on. The 2000 peace plan seen as such a generous offer was not generous at all. The Palestinian state Israel would allow was divided into bandustans with highways running between them open only to citizens of Israel. There would be no Palestinian military allowed and no border with an Arab nation. It wouldn't come close to the UN plan of 1947 or even the West Bank & Gaza of 1948 to 1967.

 

The conventional response of the pro-Israel propaganda is to note that the Arabs rejected the 1947 partition plan. Well, of course they did. The plan gave the Jews 50 per cent of Palestine's land even though they had only ten per cent of the population. Then the propagandists tell you that it was the Arabs who told the native Arabs to leave their cities and villages. The Jews never forced anybody to leave. This is such a fiction.

 

Maybe the wrongs of 1947 and 1948 can never be corrected fully but we can now at least call off the illegal settlements and the illegal wall and the illegal annexation of Arab land into "Greater Israel" and the killing of innocents and destroying of homes and farms and schools and livelihoods.

 

I don't approve of the violence of Hezbollah & Hamas but I can understand it. The injustices done by Israel to Arabs has been and continues to be massive. Americans need to learn the truth and bring sense to the politicians on both sides of the aisle. When it comes to Israel, Democrats are worse than Republicans in their blind support for tyranny and repression.

[October's Autumn]

OK October, What logical fallacy is James commiting here .

 

i.e. If you're against the Iraq War you must be against all war. It took a war to get rid of Hitler. Therefore if you're against Iraq war you would have been for Hitler.

 

I think it's either Ad Hominam(circumstantial) , or the Equivalency Fallacy( i.e Shaqille O'Neil is tall. Mount Everest is tall . Therefore Shaquille O'Neil is the same height as Mount Everest because they're both tall.)

 

I think you said ,one time, that you were big on logical fallacies, and knew their names.

MOW

 

Not me, my husband! It sounds like the Equivalency Fallacy to me, though.

[October's Autumn]

No political part is innocent in these murders.

 

It is the individuals who suffer for the sake of the Nationalistic Egos. There is no reason why Palestinians should not have a homeland. There is no reason why Israeli's should not have a homeland. There is no reason why they can not share the same space.

 

The Media isn't just lying to us, it is lying to those who are living in the midst of it all.

 

Anyone else get an email from Pat Robertson? He thinks this is God. What kind of god does he believe in? I deleted the email. I probably should have saved it and posted the content. God tells him a lot of things, apparently. He is like a seer or a soothsayer.

[loveapple]

No political part is innocent in these murders.

 

It is the individuals who suffer for the sake of the Nationalistic Egos. There is no reason why Palestinians should not have a homeland. There is no reason why Israeli's should not have a homeland. There is no reason why they can not share the same space.

 

The Media isn't just lying to us, it is lying to those who are living in the midst of it all.

 

Anyone else get an email from Pat Robertson? He thinks this is God. What kind of god does he believe in? I deleted the email. I probably should have saved it and posted the content. God tells him a lot of things, apparently. He is like a seer or a soothsayer.

 

I am surprised that people in the US give Pat Roberstson the time of day, the chap comes over as a an unpleasant kook whose views on life should be disregarded!

[October's Autumn]

, the chap comes over as a an unpleasant kook whose views on life should be disregarded!

 

ROFL