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1 minute ago, Elen1107 said:

Even during Jesus's ministry, a lot of people just seemed to get the faith, just the simple message of "good news" , and then Jesus and his group went off to somewhere else, leaving those people to figure somethings out and do something on their own. I think people experienced him as eternal, whether it was during or after his ministry or thousands of years later.

Yet then they had Jesus in the flesh.

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Time to throw AJ into all this.  

Forgiveness is the only way to rid yourself of resentment.  It does nothing for the other, but everything for the self.

I agree.

1 minute ago, thormas said:

Yet then they had Jesus in the flesh.

Yeah, but some of them only seem to have had Jesus in the flesh for only an hour or two, or a day or two, or even a minute or two, or just seen him and experienced him from across the road. There were others who just heard about him from someone else, and never actually saw him or heard him talk. I don't think we should undermine simple faith and belief and spiritual revelation that happens to regular ordinary people. It could really be one of the more important things. 

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1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

Yeah, but some of them only seem to have had Jesus in the flesh for only an hour or two, or a day or two, or even a minute or two, or just seen him and experienced him from across the road. There were others who just heard about him from someone else, and never actually saw him or heard him talk. I don't think we should undermine simple faith and belief and spiritual revelation that happens to regular ordinary people. It could really be one of the more important things. 

I don't undermine anything - just stating a reality for many, especially his disciples and others, who became the core of the Jesus community.

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On 8/9/2020 at 9:52 PM, PaulS said:

Maybe it is, but I think what is getting conflated here is what Christianity turned into (i.e. a lot of gentiles joined the party without becoming Jews), but that was not what Jesus intended.

I would not be so sure of what Jesus intended from the writings and teachings.

https://www.cru.org/us/en/train-and-grow/share-the-gospel/evangelism-principles/jesus-and-the-gentiles.html

and this NT parable from Jesus may also  differ from your assessment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Great_Banquet

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3 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Even during Jesus's ministry, a lot of people just seemed to get the faith, just the simple message of "good news" , and then Jesus and his group went off to somewhere else, leaving those people to figure somethings out and do something on their own. I think people experienced him as eternal, whether it was during or after his ministry or thousand(s) of years later.

Not wrong, but an inaccurate picture.  Matthew lays it out best.

Jesus performed miracles and taught only in parables so that people would NOT understand. He left them with questions, and taught the meaning of the parables to the apostles privately.

The apostles taught the people, and each developed their own 12 disciples (the 70/72).  The development of the church was a deliberate strategy used by Jesus.  He was not an apocalyptic prophet like JtB. 

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20 hours ago, Burl said:

Not wrong, but an inaccurate picture.  Matthew lays it out best.

Jesus performed miracles and taught only in parables so that people would NOT understand. He left them with questions, and taught the meaning of the parables to the apostles privately.

The apostles taught the people, and each developed their own 12 disciples (the 70/72).  The development of the church was a deliberate strategy used by Jesus.  He was not an apocalyptic prophet like JtB. 

I don't know if I understand JtB to be apocalyptic. Don't know if I think JC taught regular people only in parables. But these are for other subject threads.

I can see what you are saying that the development of the church was a deliberate strategy, but there were also somethings going on that were not so deliberate and organized. I've been going through the Gospel of Mark, underlining all the regular people who are mentioned in it's pages. Most of them are unnamed and just identified as groups or individuals or by the town or area they were living in, or by the synagogue they are worshiping in . It looks like these people just got the faith or got very interested in Jesus. They didn't have even the first letter written by Paul, they didn't have Jesus and his close group staying with them for very long, and though they were probably mostly Jewish, it appears that a real number of them were not.

Sometimes we only tend to focus only on the lead caricatures in a narrative and don't really notice everyone else that are also there in the texts.

I've only gotten up to the 6th chapter of Mark. It's a little long so if you don't want to read it or just want to scan it, I understand. The parts where these peoples show up in the text are underlined. I've left some of the surrounding verses to give the underlined parts context:

 

Mark 1

 

And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 

 *.*

 In Mark this is Jesus’s first teaching/preaching (after calling some (4) of the apostles/ the12) There’s a journey from near Jerusalem to Capernaum first/here too:

 21 They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach. 22 The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law. 23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

 27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.” 28 News about him spread quickly over the whole region of Galilee.

*.*

 29 As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. 30 Simon’s mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they immediately told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.

32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseasesHe also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.

*

35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed. 36 Simon and his companions went to look for him, 37 and when they found him, they exclaimed: “Everyone is looking for you!”

38 Jesus replied, “Let us go somewhere else—to the nearby villages—so I can preach there also. That is why I have come.” 39 So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.

 40 A man with leprosy[h] came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.”

41 Jesus was indignant.[i] He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed.

43 Jesus sent him away at once with a strong warning: 44 “See that you don’t tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.” 45 Instead he went out and began to talk freely, spreading the news. As a result, Jesus could no longer enter a town openly but stayed outside in lonely places. Yet the people still came to him from everywhere.

 

Mark 2

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

13 Once again Jesus went out beside the lake. A large crowd came to him, and he began to teach them. 14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector’s booth. “Follow me,” Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

15 While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. 16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

 

Mark 3

Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.

Crowds Follow Jesus

Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the lake, and a large crowd from Galilee followedWhen they heard about all he was doing, many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon. Because of the crowd he told his disciples to have a small boat ready for him, to keep the people from crowding him10 For he had healed many, so that those with diseases were pushing forward to touch him. 11 Whenever the impure spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.” 12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell others about him.

Jesus Appoints the Twelve

13 Jesus went up on a mountainside and called to him those he wanted, and they came to him. 14 He appointed twelve[a] that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons. 16 These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter), 17 James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means “sons of thunder”), 18 Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot 19 and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gatheredso that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

Mark 4

Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

 

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
    and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[
a]

13 Then Jesus said to them“Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them. 16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. 20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”

*

35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”

 

Mark 5

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%205&version=NIV

They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[b] how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

21 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” 24 So Jesus went with him.

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. 25 And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26 She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27 When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28 because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.” 29 Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

31 “You see the people crowding against you,” his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’ ”

37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue leader, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, “Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep.” 40 But they laughed at him.

After he put them all out, he took the child’s father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, “Talitha koum!” (which means “Little girl, I say to you, get up!”). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and began to walk around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

 

Mark 6

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%206&version=NIV

Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.

Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.

These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. 10 Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, leave that place and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”

12 They went out and preached that people should repent. 13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

*

30 The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. 31 Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, “Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest.”

32 So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33 But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

*

39 Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. 40 So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. 41 Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate and were satisfied, 43 and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. 44 The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand.

*

53 When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret and anchored there. 54 As soon as they got out of the boat, people recognized Jesus. 55 They ran throughout that whole region and carried the sick on mats to wherever they heard he was. 56 And wherever he went—into villages, towns or countrysidethey placed the sick in the marketplaces. They begged him to let them touch even the edge of his cloak, and all who touched it were healed.

 ------------------------------

What I'm trying to show is that a lot of people just got the faith and took things from there. I'm thinking is that there is something about that simple faith and belief that took people somewhere spiritually and it had a real life giving effect on them. They had no book, no continuous presence of a group leader, but still perhaps it gave them something great and wonderful and life and spirit changing 

Thanks if you managed to read all this and look at the underlined parts that are just about ordinary people who got the faith.

Thanks                                                                                         

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Absolutely, but what you do not read about is the people who mistook infatuation for faith, or the ones whose were enlightened but backslid into their old selves, or those who simply got it wrong.

They did have the Scriptures, and Jesus always taught in accordance with the Scriptures but of course none of these people were justified in Christ.

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1 hour ago, Burl said:

Absolutely, but what you do not read about is the people who mistook infatuation for faith, or the ones whose were enlightened but backslid into their old selves, or those who simply got it wrong.

They did have the Scriptures, and Jesus always taught in accordance with the Scriptures but of course none of these people were justified in Christ.

What do you mean by "justified in Christ"?

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On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

APOLOGIES FOR THE DUPLICATION, I WAS TRYING TO TIGHTEN MY RESPONSE AND RAN OUT OF TIME. THIS IS THE MORE CONCISE RESPONSE.

That's fair - and I get it. What is then a bit strange is when I do quote someone like an Ehrman (especially his 5th quote) to be told I'm reading into it because it doesn't jive with an 'opinion' that is based on a reading of the text that is not supported by the experts. In addition, you never dealt with that Ehrman quote.

Which Erhman quote was this Thormas?

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

I agree on the lack of a (formal) Paul-like Gentile outreach by Jesus but to then take this to conclude that Jesus would have been against such an outreach to 'all nations' is a stretch - there is, to my knowledge, nothing in the text to make this leap or on which to base this 'opinion.'  In contrast, I have looked at a number (6) of scholars, with expertise in the Bible, and, so far, I have found none who entertain such an idea (that Jesus would not have understand or would have been against such an outreach). Your assumption cuts Jesus off from his own religious history. 

I don't know what 6 you are referring to, and they may well speculate that Jesus would't be against such, but that evidence simply doesn't exist, so it is just their speculation.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

I get that you are offering an opinion, I get that you don't have the time to 'trawl back through books'  - but, regarding the texts, an opinion does not settle the matter or give it equal weight compared to scholarly 'opinion.' I have no problem allowing that I may be wrong on this issue but that is why I have been asking for support for your position - not simply from one's own reading of the texts but for scholars who agree and support your position. 

I'm not trying to settle the matter for you, and it is already settled for me, lacking any opposing evidence yet to be produced to convince me otherwise.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

As mentioned, Fredriksen speaks about James (above) on this and by the fact that there is a Council, all, including James and Peter, would have already known about an outreach to Gentiles. And the members of the Council, making the decision that the Gentiles didn't have to convert to Judaism made it even easier for the success of that outreach.

Again, you only have Paul's version of the meeting.  Nobody else has a say recorded anywhere.  Only Paul tells you it's only about conversion.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

If the outreach to Gentiles is Pauline, who established the Roman community and who were the missionaries to Galatia? Are you saying that there was no outreach to Gentiles other than Paul? 

No, there likely was.  But two wrongs don't make a right - meaning that just because Paul took up other's opinions about outreach doesn't mean it was in line with Jesus.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

Didn't catch the earlier mention of Isiah.  But of course it is directed at Israel - it is the Jewish scripture. However those ' couple of verses' are still part of the scriptures and God's promise/intention. On this I simply have to say you really do need to refer to a scholar to test your opinion, your reading. 

No, not my reading, it's the book of Isaiah.  Replete with threats against foreigners, continually saying how the powers that be will be destroyed and overthrown, yet you take a couple of verses and say that Isaiah represents an invitation to gentiles into the kingdom as an ages-old Jewish expectation.  It is not.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

If the disciples continued Jesus' preaching/announcement to Israel knowing that Jesus was not a military Messiah  ............then part of the prophecy, as you understand it, had changed: without a military Messiah and the conquest of the Gentiles, there was no coercion. 

Doesn't seem in line with Jewish expectations to me.

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

I agree that there was only a promise to Israel and not the Gentiles - because they were the people of God and the prophets of their God came to instruct them. However the prophets also spoke to Israel about God's intention that was to include 'all nations.' So not a promise to the Gentiles not an invitation (as mentioned before, that they could reject and life would go on). However, that 'all nations' were to be part of the Kingdom was clear in Isaiah. 

The eventual result after God has conquered all his enemies, would be an Israel restored.  Israel had the power.  The end result of other nations peoples who had survived then becoming subject to the God of Israel and then living peacefully with all was the final outcome, driven by the war like God conquering these other peoples.  God's intention can't be to include all if he considers some his enemies - they had to be destroyed first. 

On 8/12/2020 at 10:22 PM, thormas said:

It seems that the outreach to Gentiles began with the Judean community: Frederiksen writes that with the delay of the Kingdom (even in the first few years), they realized they had to announce the Kingdom to all of Isreal and that brought them to the Diaspora where, as discussed, they encountered Gentles everywhere, some of whom were already 'part of' the synagogue.

What I don't know is did they also start to see other Gentiles respond to their message - who they began to include?? What also interests me is if the disciples of Jesus, those who knew him, started this outreach or supported it - then they, knowing him, saw no conflict with this outreach and the preaching of Jesus to the Jews.......it was all of the same piece. And this would suggest that they either knew that Jesus did have some meaning interaction with non-Jews or that it was in line with his ministry. Now that is an opinion and I am researching it to see who started the outreach to the Gentiles.

I would have to look into it but, at first glance, it again seem to speak of the singular focus and the urgency of concentrating on Israel.

Again, I don't accept nor have I found a scholar who takes this as you do -as evidence that the message of the Kingdom was for the Jews alone.

And I don't read any scholars that say the opposite is definitely true.  Most, from what I read, don't really go into the matter of comparing, but rather seem to already have an opinion that the Kingdom was for all and then acknowledge (as they can't do otherwise based on what we have) that Jesus' focus was on the Jews only.

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On 8/13/2020 at 7:06 AM, JosephM said:

I would not be so sure of what Jesus intended from the writings and teachings.

I agree that we pretty much can't know for sure about any of it because of the untrustworthy nature of much of scripture, added to and edited throughout the ages.

On 8/13/2020 at 7:06 AM, JosephM said:

Puff piece where the authros believe Jesus said stuff because it is quoted in Acts.  No scholarship has really gone into this piece.

On 8/13/2020 at 7:06 AM, JosephM said:

and this NT parable from Jesus may also  differ from your assessment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Great_Banquet

Directed at the Jews.  There were Jews who were going to cop it and there were Jews who were considered lesser who God would restore.  Only Jews though.

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On 8/12/2020 at 10:30 PM, Burl said:

Matthew 10:17-20 continues to say the disciples will eventually bear witness to the Romans and the Gentiles.

Matthew 10:5-6 indicates the disciples are to go to only the most accepting of Jewish households first in order to avoid being persecuted out of business before accumulating critical mass.

These verses would seem to be a matter of ensuring the first seeds of Jesus’ church were planted in fertile ground rather than a restriction of the message.

We can see there are gentile influences to some of Matthew and I'm sure there was editing done throughout the ages also.  That largely Matthew says nothing about Jesus encouraging non-gentiles into the Kingdom says more than these couple of verses, in my opinion.  It just would not be hard, if it were true, for Jesus to utter one sentence such as "the Kingdom is for Jew and Gentile alike", if that is what he actually believed.

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5 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

What do you mean by "justified in Christ"?

It’s the realization that Christ always points to God like a compass needle always points North.  It’s the point where one ‘gets it’.

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2 hours ago, PaulS said:

We can see there are gentile influences to some of Matthew and I'm sure there was editing done throughout the ages also.  That largely Matthew says nothing about Jesus encouraging non-gentiles into the Kingdom says more than these couple of verses, in my opinion.  It just would not be hard, if it were true, for Jesus to utter one sentence such as "the Kingdom is for Jew and Gentile alike", if that is what he actually believed.

Fallacious argument from lack of evidence.

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6 hours ago, Burl said:

Fallacious argument from lack of evidence.

The lack of evidence is for the argument that Jesus encouraged inviting gentiles to the Kingdom.  That just isn't there.

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9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Which Erhman quote was this Thormas?

Earlier in this post I gave quotes from Ehrman, the 5th quote.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

I don't know what 6 you are referring to, and they may well speculate that Jesus would't be against such, but that evidence simply doesn't exist, so it is just their speculation.

 

Scholars: Allison, Ehrman, Hurtado, Fredrikesn, and Vermes and Hengel.  

I have given a fair reading and presented their take - what do you think of Bart's quote?

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Which Erhman quote was this Thormas?

Settle the matter: a simple turn of phrase, the bottom line is that settled or not for you, the question remains what was the actual situation, what is the most accurate take - scholarly opinion trumps (no pun intended) amateur opinion. So there must be something in the texts for them to consider. Best to remain open and when time permits see what the experts are saying and why.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Again, you only have Paul's version of the meeting.  Nobody else has a say recorded anywhere.  Only Paul tells you it's only about conversion.

Actually there was a council and a decision. And we also have Acts: I'm still exploring this as I never gave Acts too much credit but some scholars show that it is different from Luke and is a history like Josephus' writings. Still reading. Paul's version? Okay but there is the reality of an increased Christian mission to the Gentiles - and even Peter seems involved unless Rome was a vacation gone wrong. 

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

No, there likely was.  But two wrongs don't make a right - meaning that just because Paul took up other's opinions about outreach doesn't mean it was in line with Jesus.

Good one unless those missionaries came from the Jerusalem community. Still reading because I simply don't know. Ever heard of the Hellenist Christians? A bit new to me and exploring when time permits.

Part of the issue: was Paul in line with Jesus? - given some of the scholarly opinion I included above where Jesus is seen making reference to non-Jews (Gentiles) and the Kingdom. His focus was the Jews but is there mention and inclusion of the Gentiles and what is the scholarly take on these texts? Previously you didn't even consider these texts (see above). The other issue is that the disciples knew Jesus and if there were any mission to the Gentiles that they 'blessed' that is telling.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

No, there likely was.  But two wrongs don't make a right - meaning that just because Paul took up other's opinions about outreach doesn't mean it was in line with Jesus.

The point being it is your reading of Isiah and, as we both know, many times there is more than meets the eye - thus scholarly insight. I have not been focusing on invitation so much as inclusion and how that inclusion is handled (announcement, explanation and encouragement). The difference between us is that you rely on your reading and I turn to the scholars to get the fuller story.  

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Doesn't seem in line with Jewish expectations to me.

Yet the point remains. Jewish expectations of the kind of Messiah was turned on its head: Jesus was not a military Messiah and there was no conquest or coercion - as seen in the ministry of Jesus. And yet his disciples continued with their expectation of the coming Kingdom, preaching to Jews and Gentiles, in light of this reversal of understanding. The kind of 'evidence' intrigues me - thus I turn to the experts for greater insight.

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

The eventual result after God has conquered all his enemies, would be an Israel restored.  Israel had the power.  The end result of other nations peoples who had survived then becoming subject to the God of Israel and then living peacefully with all was the final outcome, driven by the war like God conquering these other peoples.  God's intention can't be to include all if he considers some his enemies - they had to be destroyed first. 

I get the role of the disciples in the Kingdom but you seem to conceive of a rule like that of kingdoms of old. In his ministry Jesus did not rule like this, would the disciples who knew him (with the Risen Christ as their leader in the Kingdom) differ in how they ruled - would what they did have anything in common with earthy rule? 

Were the Gentiles to be 'subject' to God? The prophet speaks of all feasting at the table of God - doesn't sound like subjects but rather those who have turned to and freely worship God. Thus conflicting images so turn to the scholars or at least I do.

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

And I don't read any scholars that say the opposite is definitely true.  Most, from what I read, don't really go into the matter of comparing, but rather seem to already have an opinion that the Kingdom was for all and then acknowledge (as they can't do otherwise based on what we have) that Jesus' focus was on the Jews only.

First of all, what scholars? Sure some scholar have preconceived notions that they bring to the Bible but the best try to let the texts speak for themselves - like Ehrman and the others I have included above.

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10 hours ago, PaulS said:

I agree that we pretty much can't know for sure about any of it because of the untrustworthy nature of much of scripture, added to and edited throughout the ages.

Yet understanding this, scholar still deal with the text we have: an educated 'opinion' is still more valuable that a reading by another who also brings his/her preconceived notions to the text.

Do scholars consider the scriptures to be 'untrustworthy by their very nature? Seems an Ehrman is more nuanced than that view allows.

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

Puff piece where the authros believe Jesus said stuff because it is quoted in Acts.  No scholarship has really gone into this piece.

As mentioned if Acts is more like Josephus than Luke and Joesphus is given some credibility as a history, we should be a bit careful before we dismiss Acts.

 

Edited by thormas
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15 hours ago, Burl said:

It’s the realization that Christ always points to God like a compass needle always points North.  It’s the point where one ‘gets it’.

You don't think that any of the people(s) that I underlined from the first six chapters of Mark "got it"?

Is that what you are saying?

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33 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

You don't think that any of the people(s) that I underlined from the first six chapters of Mark "got it"?

Is that what you are saying?

Correct.  Before the incarnation event concluded in Jesus’ resurrection, heavenly session as our high priest and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the students and disciples of Jesus had no way to consciously connect with God directly.
They thought they had heard a prophet and miracle worker, but the classic Jewish separation between creator and creation remained. 

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16 minutes ago, Burl said:

Correct.  Before the incarnation event concluded in Jesus’ resurrection, heavenly session as our high priest and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost the students and disciples of Jesus had no way to consciously connect with God directly.
They thought they had heard a prophet and miracle worker, but the classic Jewish separation between creator and creation remained. 

Do you think that any of them "got it" after the resurrection?

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17 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Do you think that any of them "got it" after the resurrection?

After Pentecost.  Before then justification was not possible.

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7 minutes ago, Burl said:

After Pentecost.  Before then justification was not possible.

I've never really heard of that perspective before, but it is interesting. Myself, I need to think about it for a bit.

Thanks for sharing your outlook and perspective.

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25 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I've never really heard of that perspective before, but it is interesting. Myself, I need to think about it for a bit.

Thanks for sharing your outlook and perspective.

The high level question is to ask is what was the purpose behind the entire Jesus event/narrative.  

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21 minutes ago, Burl said:

The high level question is to ask is what was the purpose behind the entire Jesus event/narrative.  

How would you yourself answer this question?

I myself just experience Jesus as eternal - {but don't tell thormas, he'd say I can't do that and that I neeeeeed a book 🙂 ) 

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35 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

How would you yourself answer this question?

I myself just experience Jesus as eternal - {but don't tell thormas, he'd say I can't do that and that I neeeeeed a book 🙂 ) 

Elen, I know you got that from a book.............☺️

 

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4 minutes ago, thormas said:

Elen, I know you got that from a book.............☺️

 

😄 

Did not ! . .  . I experience Him that way ! ! ! 

🙂 

Edit> I had too - I would never have believed it from reading it in a book, not any or all books !

Edited by Elen1107
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