Davidsun Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 16 hours ago, romansh said: As yet you have not mentioned where will from and what it is free from. ... Regarding creativity ... is it not from an ability to hide one's citations from oneself or others? Hi Romansh - In my book, Godspeak 2000 (free download link below), speaking of Life's 'intrinsic potency', I address the first line of your statement thusly: "Many who are awed by the momentous effects of psychospiritual dynamics,a for example, postulate and believe in the potency of petitionable movers and governors,b above and beyond the range of ‘normal’ being. With conviction, they pity and proselytize people of different persuasion. Zealots even go so far as to condemn and treat as damned anyone who will not acknowledge and uphold what they brandish as supreme. Ostensibly rational others, on the other hand, codify the existence of invariant ‘natural’ laws and forces, and believe them and nothing else to be determining. They self-righteously regard as stupid, even treat as insane, anyone who doesn’t talk and act as if what they imagine to be paramount is controlling. The trouble is, though they make much of their differences, members of both such schools of thought erroneously agree. At most they dispute among themselves whether the rules or rulers they’ve mind-enthroned are biased in relation to particular values or personages and, if so, for what purpose(s) and to what degree. In the end, they are similarly hamstrung by the common assumption they make, for all who believe in the absolute dominance of other forces then think of Life as one or another sort of script being staged and act puppet-like within it accordingly. The potentially liberating and amendatory truth (which, for the forementioned reasons, many don’t appreciate) is that everybody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by custom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by misusage, I generally refer to it alternatively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, itis the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone." Re: "Just out of curiosity what texts/philosophers have you read on the subject?" My book is filled with citations pertaining to the subject of Creativity, d/b/a/ Life. But I am a pschospiritual philosopher by vocation myself, so my words need no citations to make sense. Here is a link if you wish to download the a pdf of the full book, citations and all: https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/godspeak2000.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 1 hour ago, romansh said: If you think about it for one moment ... this is a completely incoherent concept. To you, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 But, whatever, I still find that engaging in actual "discussion" to be debilitating. Into my sixth week free of anti-depressant medication, such toing and froing I find disturbing, threatening my peace of mind. So fare thee well. Back to random waffling and rambling. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted May 5 Author Share Posted May 5 12 minutes ago, Davidsun said: 2 hours ago, romansh said: If you think about it for one moment ... this is a completely incoherent concept. To you, maybe. Especially to those people who believe in cause and effect. It would appear that you have read little on the subject of free will. 17 minutes ago, Davidsun said: so my words need no citations to make sense. To you, maybe. But frankly I don't think citations will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 5 Share Posted May 5 (edited) 25 minutes ago, tariki said: But, whatever, I still find that engaging in actual "discussion" to be debilitating. Into my sixth week free of anti-depressant medication, such toing and froing I find disturbing, threatening my peace of mind. So fare thee well. Back to random waffling and rambling. Thank you. Well, this is (?) a 'discussion' forum. so it it makes good sense for you not to be here in that case. Wishing you the best on your 'recovery' journey. Tariki. Thank you for informing me of the reason for your absence. 💙 Edited May 5 by Davidsun spelling correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 10 hours ago, Davidsun said: Well, this is (?) a 'discussion' forum. so it it makes good sense for you not to be here in that case. Wishing you the best on your 'recovery' journey. Tariki. Thank you for informing me of the reason for your absence. 💙 I "test the waters" occasionally to receive an update on my actual state of mental health. Dip my toe into the murky waters of so called "discussion". I find virtual "stream of consciousness" waffling and rambling (undisturbed by the needing to respond to others) totally therapeutic. Life giving in fact. Thank you for your well wishes. I appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 7 hours ago, tariki said: I find virtual "stream of consciousness" waffling and rambling (undisturbed by the needing to respond to others) totally therapeutic. Life giving in fact. I'm all for anything that's therapeutic. But I hope you register the fact that others (in this case myself) may find attempting to engaging in meaningfully coherent discussion with others who share "virtual 'stream of consciousness' waffling and rambling" just 'jerks' them around and wastes valuable energy and time. So I probably won't be talking with you if your present pattern continues to be your modus operandi. Wishing you a full recovery, as before. Edited May 6 by Davidsun fix typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 30 minutes ago, Davidsun said: I'm all for anything that's therapeutic. But I hope you register the fact that others (in this case myself) may find attempting to engaging in meaningfully coherent discussion with others who share "virtual 'stream of consciousness' waffling and rambling" just 'jerks' them around and wastes valuable energy and time. So I probably won't be talking with you if your present pattern continues to be your modus operandi. Wishing you a full recovery, as before. To be honest I don't find your own "modus operandi" in the slightest bit meaningful, in fact see it (as you dismiss mine) as a complete waste of valuable energy. The Buddha covered such in his fundamental discourses, found in the Theravada Canon of Scripture. His conclusion being that all metaphysical "views", however arrived at, have nothing to contribute to the "end of suffering" (dukkha). I have found such substantiated. But obviously this is a Christian forum, not Buddhist, so you are free to continue as you wish, to speculate and argue your points. Interminably. As said, I will not participate further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 44 minutes ago, tariki said: To be honest I don't find your own "modus operandi" in the slightest bit meaningful, in fact see it (as you dismiss mine) as a complete waste of valuable energy. The Buddha covered such in his fundamental discourses, found in the Theravada Canon of Scripture. His conclusion being that all metaphysical "views", however arrived at, have nothing to contribute to the "end of suffering" (dukkha). I have found such substantiated. But obviously this is a Christian forum, not Buddhist, so you are free to continue as you wish, to speculate and argue your points. Interminably. As said, I will not participate further. Your 'judgment' of the meaningfulness/meaninglessness of my presentation is registered. Please note that my 'judgment' of your 'judgment' 😊 is that it reveals a closed-minded opinionatedness on your part. I welcome said non-participation. I am hoping to discuss these matters with people who can and do relate to my understanding of them, should there be any such here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted May 6 Author Share Posted May 6 27 minutes ago, Davidsun said: I am hoping to discuss these matters with people who can and do relate to my understanding of them I suspect you are just proselytizing your understanding. On subject ... do you believe in cause and effect? If so how does this give us free will? If cause and effect are false, then how does this give us free will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tariki Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, Davidsun said: 😊 I am hoping to discuss these matters with people who can and do relate to my understanding of them, should there be any such here. One can always hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 4 hours ago, romansh said: I suspect you are just proselytizing your understanding. On subject ... do you believe in cause and effect? If so how does this give us free will? If cause and effect are false, then how does this give us free will? I am _presenting_ my understanding(s) for exploratory consideration and possible partial or total agreement or disagreement by intelligent others in a discussion context. You want to pejoratively (dismissively?) pigeonhole that as being 'just proselytizing'? That's fine with me - but that's on you, fella. Regarding your question - that's another 'pidgeonhole' of yours (in my opinion). I do not think in terms of 'cause and effect' when think about the activities of INTELLIGENCE. I think in terms of the possible range of choices which may (or may not) be made by intelligent beings in relational or dissociative 'responses' to various life-situations. Your 'cause and effect' pidgeonholing limits thoughtful consideration and speculation in such regard. I find your attempt to 'steer' the discussion in such 'cause and effect' totally creative-possibility adiminishing - such PREsumption itself elimiates the notion of 'free will' before any discussion can get out of the box. I am NOT getting onto the same 'pidgeon-hole' with you (as though it was the only 'reality' in Lifes' oean. Your PREsumptions AXIOMatcally eliminate any possibility of there being 'free' will. I 'freely' 😂 give you a 'raspberry' 😛 in said regard. Edited May 6 by Davidsun To refine my artlculation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted May 7 Author Share Posted May 7 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: I am _presenting_ my understanding(s) for exploratory consideration and possible partial or total agreement or disagreement by intelligent others in a discussion context. I understand this. But I am having a hard time seeing the relevance to the subject of free will. 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: You want to pejoratively (dismissively?) pigeonhole that as being 'just proselytizing'? That's fine with me I must admit I am to some degree ... mainly because you don't seem to want to engage with "intelligent others". 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: I do not think in terms of 'cause and effect' This may well be true ... nevertheless, you avoided my questions. 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: activities of INTELLIGENCE. Have you demonstrated the link between free will and INTELLIGENCE? Also, what is the difference between intelligence and INTELLIGENCE? 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: choices To be clear, the discussion about free will is not about "choice". 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: I find your attempt to 'steer' the discussion ... Perhaps if you followed the "steering" we might get somewhere? 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: elimiates the notion of 'free will' Are you suggesting cause and effect might eliminate 'free will'? As an aside, why do you capitalize some some words and their parts? 3 hours ago, Davidsun said: Your PREsumptions AXIOMatcally eliminate any possibility of there being 'free' will. If you had read what I had written I did not presume cause and effect or their absence. I simply wanted to understand what you think the implications are for the concept of free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidsun Posted May 7 Share Posted May 7 1 hour ago, romansh said: If you had read what I had written I did not presume cause and effect or their absence. I simply wanted to understand what you think the implications are for the concept of free will. I think I have made myself as clear as I can in response to how I read your previous comments. Have nothing to add.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted May 10 Author Share Posted May 10 (edited) Edited May 10 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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