The Serpent And Mankind's Fall From The Garden Of Eden (Paradise)

[JenellYB]

Waterbear, are you familiar with serpent/snake connections and images within principles and concepts of Kundalini-Shakti in Eastern traditions, and/or the 'Rod of Asclepius' of the Greeks, familiar to us even now in the traditional physician's symbol? Some interesting possible hisotrical/traditional connections in those as well. Some have even speculated the "power" involved in N.T. accounts of Jesus, and through their contact with Him, His apostles, in the conveying of the Holy Spirit upon others through a laying on of hands, may be references to the Shakti-Pat of Jesus as guru.

 

Jenell

[waterbear]

Waterbear, are you familiar with serpent/snake connections and images within principles and concepts of Kundalini-Shakti in Eastern traditions, and/or the 'Rod of Asclepius' of the Greeks, familiar to us even now in the traditional physician's symbol? Some interesting possible hisotrical/traditional connections in those as well. Some have even speculated the "power" involved in N.T. accounts of Jesus, and through their contact with Him, His apostles, in the conveying of the Holy Spirit upon others through a laying on of hands, may be references to the Shakti-Pat of Jesus as guru.

 

Jenell

 

I'm aware of those other snake connections but not in any scholarly way, just stuff I've picked up over the years in the counterculture's fascination with Eastern mysticism and Goddess worship. Because the basic messages of Jesus Christ are fairly unique to his emphasis, e.g. raising the role of forgiveness of sins in people's attitudes towards those not following the religious rules and those outside the proper social roles, e.g. tax-collectors and harlots, I do believe there was an original historical "Jesus". My money's on Yeishu ben Pantera who is defamed and castigated in the Talmud accounts of a mysterious Jewish healer who used "the name of God" to do his healing work leading "many astray" according to the Talmud critics who had Yeishu and his five disciples stoned to death and Yeishu hung on a tree as per Jewish law, (see Paul's reference to this in Gal. 3:13 I think it is).

 

Whatever magic Yeishu/Yeshua/Jesus/Christ the Magician did create a legendary personage who was mythologized as Jesus Christ of the Gospels. Did Yeishu have Indian/Greek healing knowledge? I couldn't tell you because logic says that if Yeishu/Jesus was raised in Egypt and was literate he would have had access to the Library of Alexandria where the wisdom of many lands were stored away in scrolls. We only know that Mark the author of the first Gospel was in Alexandria where Coptic Christians claim he founded the first Christian church in the world. But the Gospel writers knowledge of and relationship to the original Yeishu is anyone's guess. The Gospels aren't about biography of Jesus but about a God-Man saving the world.

[JenellYB]

Lol...I'd suggest the counter-culture and Goddess worship fascination with Eastern traditions not the best source for learning and understanding these or any other traditions. Neither are 'scholarly' sources really a good source of understandiing, presenting things just as Christian scholarship does, what can be described in an overview sense. The same as 'knowing, experiencing" what is of Christ cannot be conveyed through descriptions of the Christian religion and its history.

Jesus was almost certain to have been aware of much of both the traditions I've mentioned, for they were at the time already widely disseminated throughout the middle east and Mediterranian region, including north Africa. Some of the parables attributed to Jesus were actually virtually word for word already published in Eastern literature hundred of years before Jesus' birth.

Many Christians, especially Christian mystics, find much in such as Budhism that aligns with spiritual principles of Christian experence.

 

But my point was, there were many not only possible, but liikely, sources of serpent/snake imagery and symbolism that could have contributed to serpent symbolism in the Genesis account, as well as the "fiery serpents" and serpent image raised up in Exodus account, and in connection with Christ, beside just the Egyptian traditions.

 

Just an addenda....I do not associate Jesus or what works he may have done with "magic", or as a "magician". I consider the true power of Spirit entirely different from "magic", which involved trickery, deception, and slight of hand by the cleverness of the human mind, or a delusion of human thought by those caught under the enchantment of such deception. Magic to me is the stuff of superstition.

 

Jenell

[waterbear]

Lol...I'd suggest the counter-culture and Goddess worship fascination with Eastern traditions not the best source for learning and understanding these or any other traditions. Neither are 'scholarly' sources really a good source of understandiing, presenting things just as Christian scholarship does, what can be described in an overview sense. The same as 'knowing, experiencing" what is of Christ cannot be conveyed through descriptions of the Christian religion and its history.

Jesus was almost certain to have been aware of much of both the traditions I've mentioned, for they were at the time already widely disseminated throughout the middle east and Mediterranian region, including north Africa. Some of the parables attributed to Jesus were actually virtually word for word already published in Eastern literature hundred of years before Jesus' birth.

Many Christians, especially Christian mystics, find much in such as Budhism that aligns with spiritual principles of Christian experence.

 

But my point was, there were many not only possible, but liikely, sources of serpent/snake imagery and symbolism that could have contributed to serpent symbolism in the Genesis account, as well as the "fiery serpents" and serpent image raised up in Exodus account, and in connection with Christ, beside just the Egyptian traditions.

 

Just an addenda....I do not associate Jesus or what works he may have done with "magic", or as a "magician". I consider the true power of Spirit entirely different from "magic", which involved trickery, deception, and slight of hand by the cleverness of the human mind, or a delusion of human thought by those caught under the enchantment of such deception. Magic to me is the stuff of superstition.

 

Jenell

 

Jenell, I have been immersed in the counterculture since the '60's and of course counterculture's interests have been absorbed in my life. You look at what's happening now on Wall Street and all over American cities and see a repeat of the very same disgust with mainstream American values that keep destroying our democracy through senseless war profiteering that our generation protested against in our way. Like everything else, there's good and bad mixed together so you're advice doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, especially when you link it to throwing out historical scholarship as well. In any event, I am led by God to find these bits and pieces of ancient Near Eastern religious lore because we Christians in our times are going to have to recreate our Christian beliefs that have been handed down to us without scrutiny far too long.

 

You need to take a look at this:

 

 

October 02, 2008

Ancient Bowl Engraved "Christ the Magician" Discovered

 

Jesusbowl324x205_2 A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ, providing evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

 

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

Posted by Jason McManus.

 

Sources:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/10/01/jesus-bowl.html

 

 

Reading this news article was the third signal from God I received since the first one in 1964 about a possible Egyptian connection to Christianity. It has led to finding Egyptian religious ideas hidden within the Gospels for me, e.g. the Lazarus/Osiris connection I think I mentioned elsewhere. Then I found D.M. Murdock's Christ in Egypt book material and it cinched up the Egyptian connection that much more. Christianity is a Jewish Egyptian Mystery Religion that spoke and thought in Greek more than Hebrew. We will need now to completely overhaul all traditional Christian ideas about what Christianity is all about. It isn't what the Church Fathers told us it was.

[JenellYB]

I don't doubt or question magic, sorcery, as I am defining it, a product of human deception and trickery, was extremely common and widespread throughout all those regions at the time of Jesus' Earthly presence. Two NT references to those are found in Acts, in Ch 8:9-12, and 13:6-11.

 

And, in the Ch 8 reference, Simon the socercer DID try to integrate the power of the Holy Spirit as he saw demonstrated through the Jesus' disciples into his bag of tricks.

 

There can be no doubt that those cultures already steeped in superstition and common belief in magic, sorcery, it was likely widely assumed by many that the miracles they heard of associated with, or even may have witnessed of, Jesus, would have been assumed to be of the same nature as the magic and sorcery so common in their culture.

 

There is of course no way to know who made the cup pictured in the articles you reference (and yes, I was already familiar with it) or why, there's also no way we can assume even if the inscription references both magic/magician and Christ, it represennts anything more than the common practice of the tiime to associate anything otherwise unexplanable to common people with what might have been actually Holy Spirit power connected to Jesus.

 

The "magi from the east" were most likely Babylonian astrologers, thus the "star" they took as a message, and followed. But evidence suggests they, and the rest of the supernatural birth narrative, didn't appear until late in the first century. the earliest Christian writings of the NT, those of Paul, make no mention or reference to it at all. Seems odd he would have entirely left out something that dramatic. Along with other forms of magic and sorcery, such arts of divination as astrology and numerology were very common in those cultures, including Judism. Numerology is woven thickly through John's Revelation. Interestingly, the "number" if Jesus' name in that tradition is 666. So what are we to make of that?

 

So I find neither surprising that a cup from that era might be inscribed that way, nor something that can be accepted as valid evidence of anything. But I also do not think any of that really has any bearing or importance in how we perceive and respond in matters of faith or spirituality today.

 

The arts of divination through such rituals as reading swirls of oil in a cup, tea leaves, palm readings, are as old in those cultures as history as we know it itself. And, such practices are still in use today, with believers and followers despite rational attempts to debunk them, and even those skilled in those practices having explained their very ordinary nature themselves. I had the experience of being neighbors to several families of Romanies (Gypsies) many years ago, as a young adult, and some of their techniques were actually explained and demontrated to me. It is a trained skill, and utilizes some very sophisticated use of knowledge of human nature and psychology. And it is a skill anyone could learn. It is all illusion and delusion. But it can be very convincing to uneducated, naive people.

 

As for 'magic' or sorcery in the sense of someone being able to bring about 'supernatural' occurances through the performance of certain rituals or chanting of certain 'spells' (spiels) of words, or through having access to some 'artifact' from some special source, I don't believe in that. I've never seen evidence of it, or any reason to believe it. The Catholic church has actually been for centuries one of the strongest influences toward superstitous belief that sort, with the common practice of encouraging people to offer prayers at some altar where there is a "Holy artifact", a piece of bone claimed to be from an apostle or saint, a hankerchief or article of clothing purported to have been touched by such a person, an old sliver of wood claimed to be from the cross of Jesus' crucifixion.

 

Perhaps my explanation here of how I define magic clarifies what I am talking about.

 

But in one point I'll agree with you 100%...no, what Christianity wasn't/isn't about isn't what the "Church Fathers" told us it was.

 

Btw, I am active, in the small ways I can be from my present circumtance, in the Occupy movement. I'm driving my Republican and conservative family members and friends nuts with it, lol. Lifelong lefty and counter to a whole bunch of stuff over my 63 yrs.

 

Jenell

[waterbear]

I don't doubt or question magic, sorcery, as I am defining it, a product of human deception and trickery, was extremely common and widespread throughout all those regions at the time of Jesus' Earthly presence. Two NT references to those are found in Acts, in Ch 8:9-12, and 13:6-11.

 

And, in the Ch 8 reference, Simon the socercer DID try to integrate the power of the Holy Spirit as he saw demonstrated through the Jesus' disciples into his bag of tricks.

 

There can be no doubt that those cultures already steeped in superstition and common belief in magic, sorcery, it was likely widely assumed by many that the miracles they heard of associated with, or even may have witnessed of, Jesus, would have been assumed to be of the same nature as the magic and sorcery so common in their culture.

 

There is of course no way to know who made the cup pictured in the articles you reference (and yes, I was already familiar with it) or why, there's also no way we can assume even if the inscription references both magic/magician and Christ, it represennts anything more than the common practice of the tiime to associate anything otherwise unexplanable to common people with what might have been actually Holy Spirit power connected to Jesus.

 

The "magi from the east" were most likely Babylonian astrologers, thus the "star" they took as a message, and followed. But evidence suggests they, and the rest of the supernatural birth narrative, didn't appear until late in the first century. the earliest Christian writings of the NT, those of Paul, make no mention or reference to it at all. Seems odd he would have entirely left out something that dramatic. Along with other forms of magic and sorcery, such arts of divination as astrology and numerology were very common in those cultures, including Judism. Numerology is woven thickly through John's Revelation. Interestingly, the "number" if Jesus' name in that tradition is 666. So what are we to make of that?

 

So I find neither surprising that a cup from that era might be inscribed that way, nor something that can be accepted as valid evidence of anything. But I also do not think any of that really has any bearing or importance in how we perceive and respond in matters of faith or spirituality today.

 

The arts of divination through such rituals as reading swirls of oil in a cup, tea leaves, palm readings, are as old in those cultures as history as we know it itself. And, such practices are still in use today, with believers and followers despite rational attempts to debunk them, and even those skilled in those practices having explained their very ordinary nature themselves. I had the experience of being neighbors to several families of Romanies (Gypsies) many years ago, as a young adult, and some of their techniques were actually explained and demontrated to me. It is a trained skill, and utilizes some very sophisticated use of knowledge of human nature and psychology. And it is a skill anyone could learn. It is all illusion and delusion. But it can be very convincing to uneducated, naive people.

 

As for 'magic' or sorcery in the sense of someone being able to bring about 'supernatural' occurances through the performance of certain rituals or chanting of certain 'spells' (spiels) of words, or through having access to some 'artifact' from some special source, I don't believe in that. I've never seen evidence of it, or any reason to believe it. The Catholic church has actually been for centuries one of the strongest influences toward superstitous belief that sort, with the common practice of encouraging people to offer prayers at some altar where there is a "Holy artifact", a piece of bone claimed to be from an apostle or saint, a hankerchief or article of clothing purported to have been touched by such a person, an old sliver of wood claimed to be from the cross of Jesus' crucifixion.

 

Perhaps my explanation here of how I define magic clarifies what I am talking about.

 

But in one point I'll agree with you 100%...no, what Christianity wasn't/isn't about isn't what the "Church Fathers" told us it was.

 

Btw, I am active, in the small ways I can be from my present circumtance, in the Occupy movement. I'm driving my Republican and conservative family members and friends nuts with it, lol. Lifelong lefty and counter to a whole bunch of stuff over my 63 yrs.

 

Jenell

 

Jenell, when did you lose faith in magic? You really can't be a Christian without faith in the magical qualities of Jesus' name, "In the Name of Jesus" remember? What is that but a magical incantation, a magical invocation for a Spirit to appear and help one.

I'm sorry but Christianity is all about magic or perhaps more accurately about invisible forces we have no science for which traditionally we label "Spirit". But you paint a most secular outlook devoid of Spirit which is magical.

 

You wouldn't do well in Native American spiritual tradition with your outlook. Every shaman has their means of future prognostication and yes, even the Jewish high priests had theirs while fibbing about not using divination. What do you think those "Thummin and Urim" were all about but the Jewish priest's method of using knuckle bones according to one religious historian for divination in order to guide the tribe.

 

Over the Summer Solstice, around St. John's Day which symbolizes it in Christian tradition, I went with two other spiritual leaders back to Montana and South Dakota to finish the second major spiritual vision I've had. Before we went my Bear River tribal partner got a Sign to take the trip when he called in the Thunder Beings to split the storm cloud here at the most western point of the continental U.S., right near Cape Mendocino, coming over from Japan supposedly leaden with radioactivity from the failed Japanese nuclear power stations. His ritual did split the storm front here in Humboldt County and as the Thunder Beings passed they let loose their thunder bolts and 20 Aleutian geese were killed, fell from the sky and my friend picked one up and brought it home here. We both agreed it was time for another wild goose chase and a few weeks later we were in Montana and S.D. and Nebraska where I posted how my tribal buddy again called the Thunder Beings which caused about six or seven tornado clouds to form within minutes although they all evaporated before touching ground. You could here Them in the clouds as continuous thunder, what is called "Rolling Thunder" but if your atheistic and think God is somehow not playing a part of the magic of the world then you're missing a big hunk of spiritual reality.

 

I posted that bowl for your consideration because it does provide proof of a Christ the Magician cult in existence at the time of the writing of the Gospels. You believe the Story as written but that's not going to help you unravel the real roots of Christian doctrine. For another example, you believing the Three Wise Men story as a real event not knowing it appears to me about the Egyptian religion's assignment of the three stars in Orion's Belt that point to Sirius, Osiris' star, as Messengers and Kings, their Sign in the sky appearing prominently at the horizon I think it is, could be wrong there, during the Winter Solstice, December 25th being the traditional birthday of sun gods. The Gospels are laced with Egyptian astro-theology symbolism and we now must deal with this information that radically changes Christianity as it restores and puts the Gnostic tradition in a new light.

[glintofpewter]

Christianity is a Jewish Egyptian Mystery Religion that spoke and thought in Greek more than Hebrew

No it's not. I am a Christian and that makes no sense to me other than to tickle my intelligence.

 

Waterbearer, that's my reflex reaction to definitive statements about Christianity. I don't mean it personally. I don't see how any new information from the past can do more than add to the endless variations in Christianity. Such ideas are stimulating and maybe rejuvenating but not definitive or delimiting. Ilia Delio informs my understanding of Christianity in an evolutionary framework more than the writings of the Greeks or Egyptians.

 

 

The Gospels are laced with Egyptian astro-theology symbolism and we now must deal with this information that radically changes Christianity as it restores and puts the Gnostic tradition in a new light.

I don't see how of this changes Christianity today or the basic messages of Jesus.

 

Take Care

 

Dutch

[glintofpewter]

about the cup

What does the inscription say?

 

OGOISTAIS is best understood as a fuller form of O GOHS, or magician. The Attic spelling would be O GOHSTHS. The itacisms are not unusual for Alexandria.

 

The inscription has CHRHSTOU and whoever or whatever is being referred to, the lettering is not 'messiah'.

 

There are numerous possible interpretations of this word and even the scholarly debates often become confused with Christian theology and associated assumptions.

 

http://historyhunter...1/christ-magus/

[waterbear]

I agree that the basic moral teachings of Jesus do not waver with this Egyptian connection information coming in but the spiritual messages do change as well as the intellectual foundation for belief. Because God made me a radical Gnostic type of Christian from my original religious conversion experience which included informing me back in 1979 with Sign ("Ham"s [Egypt] spiritual meaning coming to me along with Cush [Egypt again] and Canaan--Ham's place name children) that Egypt was lurking in the background of my Christian understanding, this new to us complete coding of Egyptian religious system in the Gospels is not only fascinating but completing two of my own spiritual missions. Christianity can now join as equals with all the astro-theological religious systems found throughout the world. All those "sevens" including the seven loaves of bread miracle and the five loaves (= the five planets) and two fishes (= the sun and moon) in the Bible, all the 12s representing the solar year divided by the ancients 360 days of 30 day months plus the extra ones added at the Winter Solstice. It's bound to change Christians who think about their religion's roots, bound to elevate the Gnostic Christian connection to Egyptian lore, e.g. I can now see a direct line to Isis worship in the "Sons of Thunder", Boanerges, because thunder was one of Isis' appellations as a storm goddess. The Gnostic Hymn to Isis found at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, is called "The Thunder, Perfect Mind" and thus "Sons of Thunder" could well be Alexandrian Egyptian Gnostic Jews who, living surrounded by Isis theology and Temple of Isis Mystery Religious worshipers, followed Isis but were Jewish encultured. The Gospels are a creation to put this information into the Jewish epic stream--the question now for this Jewish Christian at least is why?

 

Why did Alexandrian Gnostic Jews want to radically change Judaism? I think it was to save Jewish souls. Saturn worship didn't do this. Sun god theology included salvation of souls to eternal life through resurrection and so as the Jews have always done, they borrowed pagan mythologies and deities and remade them like Brahma and Sarasvati were remade into Abraham and Sarah.

[JenellYB]

Waterbear wrote: "Jenell, when did you lose faith in magic? You really can't be a Christian without faith in the magical qualities of Jesus' name, "In the Name of Jesus" remember? What is that but a magical incantation, a magical invocation for a Spirit to appear and help one."

 

 

I never lost faith in magic, at least the kind of magic you seem to be speaking of....I never had faith in that kind magic to begin with to have been lost.

 

I agree that as "in the Name of Jesus" is commonly used in that sense it is being used as an incantation in an attempt to command magic. I neither believe it 'works', or that such belief is essential to being a Christian. Or for that matter, even consistent with being a Christian.

 

Since that invoking that incantation has so obviously and miserably failed the governor of this state and his religious right base, it sure would be nice if you and your spiritual buddy could drop in here in Texas and call upon the Thunder Beings to bring the rain we need to break this drought. Just if you happen to find time and its convenient of course. We sure would appreciate it.

 

Waterbear, of shamans, this I can speak of with full confidence, that you seem to be unaware of. A shaman can never speak openly of his/her powers, or accomplishments. To do so is to bring down the wrath of the Spirits, for it is boasting, pride, and for it, the Spirits will withdraw from him/her, and the shaman's powers will be gone. A shaman has no power but that which the Spirits grant through him/her. A shaman does as the Spirits will, the Spirits do not do the shaman's will.

 

Waterbear, I have tried, I've really tried, to converse with you. However, I'm finding it to be like trying to nail jello to a tree. I give up.

 

Jenell

[waterbear]

Waterbear wrote: "Jenell, when did you lose faith in magic? You really can't be a Christian without faith in the magical qualities of Jesus' name, "In the Name of Jesus" remember? What is that but a magical incantation, a magical invocation for a Spirit to appear and help one."

 

 

I never lost faith in magic, at least the kind of magic you seem to be speaking of....I never had faith in that kind magic to begin with to have been lost.

 

I agree that as "in the Name of Jesus" is commonly used in that sense it is being used as an incantation in an attempt to command magic. I neither believe it 'works', or that such belief is essential to being a Christian. Or for that matter, even consistent with being a Christian.

 

Since that invoking that incantation has so obviously and miserably failed the governor of this state and his religious right base, it sure would be nice if you and your spiritual buddy could drop in here in Texas and call upon the Thunder Beings to bring the rain we need to break this drought. Just if you happen to find time and its convenient of course. We sure would appreciate it.

 

Waterbear, of shamans, this I can speak of with full confidence, that you seem to be unaware of. A shaman can never speak openly of his/her powers, or accomplishments. To do so is to bring down the wrath of the Spirits, for it is boasting, pride, and for it, the Spirits will withdraw from him/her, and the shaman's powers will be gone. A shaman has no power but that which the Spirits grant through him/her. A shaman does as the Spirits will, the Spirits do not do the shaman's will.

 

Waterbear, I have tried, I've really tried, to converse with you. However, I'm finding it to be like trying to nail jello to a tree. I give up.

 

Jenell

 

You mean if I counter your arguments you give up trying to communicate with me? What's that about?

 

Don Brenard and I live at the poverty level and it took some doing to get enough money to pay for the trip from here in N.California to get back to the midwest to do our spiritual work. Why don't you or Texans send Don some travel money next drought for him to do his rituals to bring in rain to Texas? Personally, I was pretty impressed when Don beats his drum and called in the Thunder Beings to bring down a tornado and right away six or seven tornado funnels dropped from the parent cloud. While I am skeptical of most supernatural claims here and there amongst them is the real deal in my opinion. Btw, are you a shaman to tell us what shamans do or do not do?

[JosephM]

Waterbear,

 

Your remarks are out of line for this forum. You said ...

Jenell, when did you lose faith in magic? You really can't be a Christian without faith in the magical qualities of Jesus' name, "In the Name of Jesus" remember? What is that but a magical incantation, a magical invocation for a Spirit to appear and help one.

 

Consider this as a public warning. You may disagree and you may express your view as your opinion or interpretation but you will not tell any member that they can't be a Christian because your belief is different or they don't believe in magic regardless of how you personally interpret the Bible.. You are doing to Jenell what you say fundamentalists have done to you. This is considered a personal and inappropriate remark here and such behavior is not tolerated. Read our guidelines HERE and write me by PM ONLY if you have any problem with this warning

 

JosephM (as Moderator)

 

PS. To Other members. Please do not respond publicly to waterbear's remark and please feel free to continue the discussion on topic.

[waterbear]

No. This discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned. I won't be bullied by anyone here into how or what I can post as my Christian beliefs. I don't care for strong arm tactics, Joseph. If you want to play god with people's beliefs do it on your own time but don't try it with me. Belonging to a forum run by self-elected power trippers is not of much value to me. I have enjoyed the reception I've gotten but you've played hardball with my posts now too many times for me to cater to you or anyone who tries to control free discussion of ideas when nobody's slandering anyone's beliefs, just posting their own opinions about them.

[Nick the Nevermet]

No. This discussion is closed as far as I'm concerned. I won't be bullied by anyone here into how or what I can post as my Christian beliefs. I don't care for strong arm tactics, Joseph. If you want to play god with people's beliefs do it on your own time but don't try it with me. Belonging to a forum run by self-elected power trippers is not of much value to me. I have enjoyed the reception I've gotten but you've played hardball with my posts now too many times for me to cater to you or anyone who tries to control free discussion of ideas when nobody's slandering anyone's beliefs, just posting their own opinions about them.

 

There is a significant difference between a 1) Mod bullying you about your beliefs, and 2) a Mod telling you to stop defining other people's beliefs for them. Joseph did the latter, as you told another poster what their version of Christianity is defined by (which is a big no-no here). If you disagree with that assertion by the Mod, that's fine, there's another forum area to discuss moderation. But even if you disagree, this was not you being attacked for your beliefs. #2 is not #1.

[JosephM]

Waterbear is hereby suspended from posting for 7 days for inappropriate remarks in this thread and by his public comment expressing unwillingness to discuss it or resolve it privately with moderation . Without a formal apology not for his beliefs but for his unkind words and behavior, his fate on this forum will be determined by his further words and actions and the views of the moderator team on what's best for the forum.

 

JosephM(as Admin)