The Harm To Others

[minsocal]

I am going to pull together a number of issues here from other threads and ask some simple questions:

 

Is it OK for a major religious leader to claim "God wants you to be rich"?

 

Is it OK for a major religous leader to own a seven bedroom house in an exclusive neighborhood and claim that he owns TWO BENTLEY CARS OUT OF CHRISTIAN RESTRAINT? (no kidding)!

 

Is it OK for a rich mega-church to serve only the needs of those who sign a pledge dedicaticing themselves to their own philopsophy?

 

These are the facts here in local Southern California, the third most CONSERVATIVE local in the country. NOW ... name the Church and name the leader.

 

All three are different (BTW).

[JosephM]

I am going to pull together a number of issues here from other threads and ask some simple questions:

 

Is it OK for a major religious leader to claim "God wants you to be rich"?

 

Is it OK for a major religous leader to own a seven bedroom house in an exclusive neighborhood and claim that he owns TWO BENTLEY CARS OUT OF CHRISTIAN RESTRAINT? (no kidding)!

 

Is it OK for a rich mega-church to serve only the needs of those who sign a pledge dedicaticing themselves to their own philopsophy?

 

These are the facts here in local Southern California, the third most CONSERVATIVE local in the country. NOW ... name the Church and name the leader.

 

All three are different (BTW).

 

It seems to be none of those things begs my approval, endorsement or OK. They are simply facts of life here that are part of the evolutionary process of consciopusness. They do harm to us to the extent that we as individuals allow them to. It seems to me their names are not important. Actions speak for themselves and I am of the persuasion that focus for my own actions and any power that is given me to help others with theirs at this point in time is sufficient. This for me does not include naming others whose beliefs and actions may differ from my own.

 

Just one mans view,

Joseph

[minsocal]

It seems to be none of those things begs my approval, endorsement or OK. They are simply facts of life here that are part of the evolutionary process of consciopusness. They do harm to us to the extent that we as individuals allow them to. It seems to me their names are not important. Actions speak for themselves and I am of the persuasion that focus for my own actions and any power that is given me to help others with theirs at this point in time is sufficient. This for me does not include naming others whose beliefs and actions may differ from my own.

 

Just one mans view,

Joseph

 

My real point was to raise the question of Christian values. When the homeless sleep within blocks of two Churches determined to have the highest steeple visible from a major freeway, these things make the news here in California. The Rick Warren controversy is part of an ingrained attitude here that has led to some fairly ugly confrontations. The content of those confrontations might stun you. I have heard accounts of people actually being sickened (literally) by them. There is something very wrong with this picture. When I moved here many years ago, I found it difficult to believe what I was seeing and hearing. I was accustomed to people having differences and worshiping with each other, not against each other.

[soma]

"Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the Apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."

[minsocal]

"Acts 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the Apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."

 

Again, I agree. The message concerns not only physical needs but spiritual needs as well. Where are the homeless accepted in community worship? "Bring me your tired, and your poor longing to be free ..."

[JosephM]

Again, I agree. The message concerns not only physical needs but spiritual needs as well. Where are the homeless accepted in community worship? "Bring me your tired, and your poor longing to be free ..."

 

Myron,

 

Perhaps this is your purpose and the power to bring about something big is within your reach? You have a burden and seem to be most intelligent. Perhaps you can get some people together and rather than attacking those who fail to meet these needs, implement a solution to the problem you have identified. I for one would be a willing contributor if you can come up with a plan to bring about a positive solution to the need. It is a worthy project and the need seems to exist .

 

Love Joseph

[minsocal]

Myron,

 

Perhaps this is your purpose and the power to bring about something big is within your reach? You have a burden and seem to be most intelligent. Perhaps you can get some people together and rather than attacking those who fail to meet these needs, implement a solution to the problem you have identified. I for one would be a willing contributor if you can come up with a plan to bring about a positive solution to the need. It is a worthy project and the need seems to exist .

 

Love Joseph

 

Joseph,

 

The version of Christianity that I was raised with is exactly what you propose. That "project" began in the early days of the Bible and is really nothing new. My home church in Wisconsin has operated a non-denominational program to feed the needy for some forty years. Some of the more sophisticated hospitials in the state were established by church backed foundations. My brother is alive today because of one of these hospitals and the advanced care techniques they poineered. In the field of mental health, the church backed advances in humane care within "insane asylums" or "poor farms". Due to this project, my great-uncle, a schizophrenic, received some of the best care available in the country (in the late 1800's!). The church helped fund the asylum and staff it with properly trained nurses, and my great-uncle even had his own little garden to tend. The church also helped fund a nurses training program to work at the asylums where they received part of their training. Again, this was in the late 1800's.

 

The term "progressive" has deep roots in history. In this country it included ministers who faught against slavery in the deep south before the Civil War. As many as half lost their lives in the process. It was involved in the early feminist movement, ordaining women into the ministry as early as 1859. As I mentioned earlier, some have traced this "attitude" or "philosophy" to the earliest records found in the Bible. The tension between the two views is as ancient as human consciousness.

 

An example of this is found in Plato who, by the way, thought slaves had a proper role in society. After the death of Jesus, many Neo-Platonist ideas found their way into Christianity. These do not interest me at all. The real issue has to do with the subjective goals and purposes found in the teachings of Jesus. Yes, I said subjective. The prophets took a subjective view of the world and entered into the transformative aspect of creation, often at the expense of their own lives. Modern day examples include Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Mother Teresa. These last three examples are at the core of the "progressive expression".

 

The "progressive expression" has always been dangerous, as already argued. I am a psychologist, and the ethics guidelines for psychologists require that we "speak out" where the status quo does harm to others. Slavery does harm to others. Colonialism does harm to others. Poverty does harm to others. The marginalization of others does harm to others.

 

The poet Robert Bly puts it very well. Since the 1950's "we have lost our passion for justice". Why? Because we have lost that deep connection to the Bible and the passion of the prophets for justice. Charles Darwin echoed this when he said (paraphrasing), if we find in the end that OUR human institutions are the cause of suffering, then that will be our greatest sin.

 

Myron

[minsocal]

Harm is not an abstract concept. It is real. It is physical and it is psychological. Objective and subjective. This is one place where the objective-subjective dichotomy breaks down. Psychological harm leads to physical harm when anxiety and depression lead to concrete physical problems. The philosophical question of sublective-objective is moot. To diagnose anxiety and depression, the physical correlates are used to make the proper determination. In 2002, it was estimated that the burden of untreated anxiety on our health care system reached (at a minimum) $58 Billion.

 

The ethical question is not complex. What are the causal relations between physical and psychological harm? There are no ideological or theological considerations at this point (not yet). The ethical and moral considerations enter later. Here is where the subject-object issue re-enters the discussion. Harm is objective in the real sense that a subjective ontology leads to an objective ontology. A desire to "do no harm" is, by definition, subjective. That is what a desire is. Desires are fulfilled, or they are not. Desires without action cannot be fulfilled, only frustrated. Desires with action can be fulfilled, but also frustrated (by others).

 

"Feed the poor" is meaningless without action. "Do no harm" is meaningless without inaction. Free will (rationality) requires the freedom to act or not act (Kant and Reid). This is the world we entered as created by God.

[minsocal]

Myron,

 

Perhaps this is your purpose and the power to bring about something big is within your reach? You have a burden and seem to be most intelligent. Perhaps you can get some people together and rather than attacking those who fail to meet these needs, implement a solution to the problem you have identified. I for one would be a willing contributor if you can come up with a plan to bring about a positive solution to the need. It is a worthy project and the need seems to exist .

 

Love Joseph

 

Joseph,

 

It's not a "burden" Joseph ... it's a task given and accepted.

 

Myron

[minsocal]

Joseph,

 

It's not a "burden" Joseph ... it's a task given and accepted.

 

Myron

 

Joseph,

 

The "time out limits" on this board are a bit frustrating. Jesus accepted a "task". Jesus was a Jew. The Jewish community DID NOT WANT CHRISTIANS to leave "the fold". When Christian Jews broke from Jewish society, it was traumatic.

 

I will make a risky comment here that I thinks deserves contemplation.

 

The Pope, in recent dialogues, noted that it could not be the case that "the church" supported the Holocaust. After all, he said. that the Pope had "absolved the Jews of responsibilty for killing Christ".

 

This is pure ideology. Pure theology. I have no need of this, and this is not a pejoritive statement. [Please Note]

 

When my great-grandparents allowed their son to be "committed" to an "insane asylum", it was with the knowledge that this was an institution supported by their church to serve his needs. They would never have done otherwise. Their son is buried next to them in loving memory.

 

I place these two points in juxtaposition for a reason. The reason being is that these are facts are what we have to struggle with.

 

Myron

[minsocal]

There are old questions and old answers. There are new questions and answers yet unknown.

[JosephM]

There are old questions and old answers. There are new questions and answers yet unknown.

 

I place these two points in juxtaposition for a reason. The reason being is that these are facts are what we have to struggle with.

 

Greetings Minsocal,

 

Perhaps I do not understand the point. What facts do we "have to struggle with"? And what new questions do you look for and why?

 

Love Joseph

[minsocal]

Greetings Minsocal,

 

Perhaps I do not understand the point. What facts do we "have to struggle with"? And what new questions do you look for and why?

 

Love Joseph

 

Are women inferior and subservient to men? Where are the women in theology? Philosophy? What would the Bible look like from a feminist viewpoint? Have women been harmed by a patriarchal society? Why do women suffer from levels of depression twice that of males? Over the world?

 

Have we have asked convenient questions for far too long?

 

Where does life begin? What is the proper answer to the question about abortion that divides us now? Is it when the foetus knows pain?

 

Is the Bible only a prescription for personal peace? Are we social animals?

 

Is the Bible simply a list of proscriptions aimed at a society that no longer exists?

 

If WE created the institutions that maintain suffering, would that be our greatest sin? Did WE create the concept of the devil to avoid responsibilty? Did WE create the concept of the devil just to "demonize" others for our own advantage?

 

This is not a very comprehensive list. It does not nearly enter into the full scope of contemporary issues of ethics and morality.

[JosephM]

Minsocal,

 

Thanks for the details and clarification.

 

Love,

Joseph

[soma]

Those are great questions and I don't have the answers, but I believe that Jesus came in the flesh to transform mankind above materialism to a spiritual understanding and an experience with God. He did not give us all the answers or the questions we are facing today. He told stories to help bring us to an intimate union with everything. When explained with reason, the content of these stories demonstrates the inner meaning of the universe and human life. Primarily, these stories tell us who we are and how we should behave, providing us a way to self-understanding by serving the intellect’s desire to know about the beginning of creation and human life itself. Our intelligence has a vitally important part to play in answering these fundamental questions today as our spiritual experience matures. Answering these questions changes as we go deeper and they preserve our mental and spiritual health if we answer in a humane way. It is our life intelligence that guides us through the crises we face; it also leads us to reflect on our inner life and our relationship to every man and woman. The intellect can give us a glimpse of the spiritual life inside ourselves, help us resist the exterior influences that blind us with passion and help us access thoughts about God that are totally new, unexpected and beyond our own capacity. The effect of these inspirations is to enable the soul to approach God beyond the material realm in pure consciousness where everything is one. I feel we know we are progressing if we are trying to answer and solve the problems posed.

 

I feel the relationship between our human nature, the world and the beyond is made understandable, as we perceive that life is a relative and intricate part of an undivided whole. We just have to be careful not to get engulfed by the particular things and lose sight of the total picture.

[minsocal]

Those are great questions and I don't have the answers, but I believe that Jesus came in the flesh to transform mankind above materialism to a spiritual understanding and an experience with God. He did not give us all the answers or the questions we are facing today. He told stories to help bring us to an intimate union with everything. When explained with reason, the content of these stories demonstrates the inner meaning of the universe and human life. Primarily, these stories tell us who we are and how we should behave, providing us a way to self-understanding by serving the intellect’s desire to know about the beginning of creation and human life itself. Our intelligence has a vitally important part to play in answering these fundamental questions today as our spiritual experience matures. Answering these questions changes as we go deeper and they preserve our mental and spiritual health if we answer in a humane way. It is our life intelligence that guides us through the crises we face; it also leads us to reflect on our inner life and our relationship to every man and woman. The intellect can give us a glimpse of the spiritual life inside ourselves, help us resist the exterior influences that blind us with passion and help us access thoughts about God that are totally new, unexpected and beyond our own capacity. The effect of these inspirations is to enable the soul to approach God beyond the material realm in pure consciousness where everything is one. I feel we know we are progressing if we are trying to answer and solve the problems posed.

 

I feel the relationship between our human nature, the world and the beyond is made understandable, as we perceive that life is a relative and intricate part of an undivided whole. We just have to be careful not to get engulfed by the particular things and lose sight of the total picture.

 

Soma,

 

Agreed. We could quibble over small details, but that is not the point.

 

Joseph,

 

Thank you.

 

Myron

[minsocal]

In 1837, Sarah Grimke wrote " ... but no where does God say that he made any distintion between us , as moral and intellectual beings."

 

minsocal

[minsocal]

This I can tell you from another message board. A women became an advocate for an autistic child. This "child of God" did not speak for 27 years. His first words, after 27 years of silence, were ... "I love you ...". What more can one say? Autistic children, chidren with Down's Syndrome, Schizophrenics ... all are able to express love. "The meek shall inherit the earth ...", think about it!

[davidk]

Which of you by being anxious can add a single moment to his life's span. Don't be anxious, but seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness; and all the things you need will be added to you.

 

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, bretheren, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in Christ Jesus, practice these things and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

[minsocal]

Which of you by being anxious can add a single moment to his life's span. Don't be anxious, but seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness; and all the things you need will be added to you.

 

Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God which surpasses all comprehension, shall guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Finally, bretheren, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in Christ Jesus, practice these things and the God of peace shall be with you.

 

 

Natural anxiety exists for a reason. It is a signal of possible danger and, when properly used, helps us avoid danger (possibly adding time to our lifespan). For others, it is a motivating factor that spurs them to positive actions they might not otherwise take.

 

This passage is NOT about positive anxiety, it is about negative or inhibitory anxiety. Otherwise, it is false.

[davidk]

Natural anxiety exists for a reason. It is a signal of possible danger and, when properly used, helps us avoid danger (possibly adding time to our lifespan). For others, it is a motivating factor that spurs them to positive actions they might not otherwise take.

 

This passage is NOT about positive anxiety, it is about negative or inhibitory anxiety. Otherwise, it is false.

From what I understand, anxiety is an abnormal perception of hopelessness, dominating uncertainty, a combination of doubt, agitation, and dread, all without any sufficient objective justification; and can result from apparently being confronted with nothingness.

I don't find anything positive about anxiety, other than to consider when it doesn't exist. I have found it is differentiated from fear, which is the response to genuine threat.

[soma]

In a study of Christian church members who approached their church for help with a personal or family member's diagnosed mental illness, researchers found that more than 32 percent were told by their pastor that they or their loved one did not really have a mental illness.

 

"The results are troubling because it suggests individuals in the local church are either denying or dismissing a somewhat high percentage of mental health diagnosis," said study leader Matthew Stanford, professor of psychology and neuroscience at Baylor University in Texas. "Those whose mental illness is dismissed by clergy are not only being told they don't have a mental illness, they are also being told they need to stop taking their medication. That can be a very dangerous thing."

 

The results, based on surveys of 293 individuals, were published in the journal Mental Health, Religion and Culture.

 

In a subsequent survey, Baylor researchers found the dismissal or denial of the existence of mental illness happened more in conservative churches, rather than more liberal ones.

 

All of the participants in both studies were previously diagnosed by a licensed mental health provider as having a serious mental illness, such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, prior to approaching their local church for assistance.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27200727/

[JosephM]

From what I understand, anxiety is an abnormal perception of hopelessness, dominating uncertainty, a combination of doubt, agitation, and dread, all without any sufficient objective justification; and can result from apparently being confronted with nothingness.

I don't find anything positive about anxiety, other than to consider when it doesn't exist. I have found it is differentiated from fear, which is the response to genuine threat.

 

It seems to me that anxiety is a state of uneasiness and apprehension as a result of things being other than what one believes they should be. Acceptance of what is at the moment leaves no room for anxiety and usually precipitates a meaningful action to change what is if it is in ones power to do so. I also find very little positive about anxiety except as an indicator that an inner conflict exists.

 

Love Joseph

[minsocal]

From what I understand, anxiety is an abnormal perception of hopelessness, dominating uncertainty, a combination of doubt, agitation, and dread, all without any sufficient objective justification; and can result from apparently being confronted with nothingness.

I don't find anything positive about anxiety, other than to consider when it doesn't exist. I have found it is differentiated from fear, which is the response to genuine threat.

 

Positive anxiety is the anticipation of potential genuine threat, and the anticipation of positive reward. If anxiety did not serve an adaptive function, it would not be there. As I have previously noted, ALL innate responses are adaptive until distorted by some factor outside of nature. This has been known for thousands of years. Jesus seems to have understood this principle.

 

In accordance with this thread, THERE IS NOTHING ABNORMAL ABOUT ANXIETY CONCERNING DOING HARM TO OTHERS!

[minsocal]

I certainly hope we might be anxious about doing harm to others.