JosephM

February 10, 2020

15 hours ago, Burl said:

Just noticed the 8 points were revised in January. Much cleaner and more direct.

https://progressivechristianity.org/resources/updated-8-points-of-progressive-christianity/

Thanks Burl,

In a different section of the main organization they include this note which is important but was left off the original page you referenced. Paul found it and copied in another related thread in another forum here. It reads....

"Notes: We’ve heard you and in our many conversations with our readership, Progressive Christian pastors, theologians, scholars, visionaries, and in our observations and studies, we have co-created this updated version of our 8 Points of Progressive Christianity. Progressive Christianity is inherently always evolving and progressing. Please take these lightly but seriously. They are not dogma, they are simply a starting point to establish conversations and a foundation of values and beliefs that we have observed Progressive Christians generally share. It’s ok if you don’t agree with all the words or all the parts. We support your authentic path. You can use these in your faith communities and with family and friends to talk about what it means to you to be a Progressive Christian in today’s world. Here is to always progressing!"

... and can be found here ---> https://progressivechristianity.org/the-8-points/

February 10, 2020

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think it should be noted also, that the 8 Points this forum refers to, is followed by a note by the TCPC:

Notes: We’ve heard you and in our many conversations with our readership, Progressive Christian pastors, theologians, scholars, visionaries, and in our observations and studies, we have co-created this updated version of our 8 Points of Progressive Christianity. Progressive Christianity is inherently always evolving and progressing. Please take these lightly but seriously. They are not dogma, they are simply a starting point to establish conversations and a foundation of values and beliefs that we have observed Progressive Christians generally share. It’s ok if you don’t agree with all the words or all the parts. We support your authentic path. You can use these in your faith communities and with family and friends to talk about what it means to you to be a Progressive Christian in today’s world. Here is to always progressing!

Thanks Paul,

I missed that note when reading them. Thanks for posting as it needs to be said for proper context.

February 10, 2020

12 hours ago, romansh said:

Having said, I see Progressive Christianity as a more stable stepping stone than traditional Christianity.

I would agree with that. It is in my view a stepping stone. Some may even bypass it entirely. (point 2)

February 9, 2020

47 minutes ago, Burl said:

Apologies. Was intended as a general comment and not personal.

Thanks for the clarification Burl.

February 8, 2020

1 hour ago, Burl said:

Nothing needs to be overcome. Everyone is entitled to their own faith.

Slandering someone’s beliefs as ‘false premises’ is wholly negative and an intellectually adoption of a supremacist attitude.

You can preach what you do believe is true without intellectually bullying others.

Burl,

No bullying here. Note it says in my view. He has expressed his opinion and i have expressed mine. No offense is meant. Pipiripi is not a newbie to forums. He is well read in the Bible i can assure you of that. I have done my research. He has bordered on attacking Thormas in a couple posts * and i am not attacking him but rather suggesting that his post is filled with dogma and doctrine of the church system and, in my view, there are what i consider false premises that prevent one from breaking free of that dogma and doctrine . There is no requirement for him to do so or change his faith..

* http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/topic/4544-im-done-with-church/?do=findComment&comment=52539

* http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/topic/4544-im-done-with-church/?do=findComment&comment=52551

February 8, 2020

1 hour ago, romansh said:

Here is how I would have worded the eight points.

Progressive Christians:

Understand the teachings of Jesus can lead to an awareness of the interconnectedness of all life, the inanimate and the universe.

Accept that science and other traditions provide many ways to understand this interconnectedness.

Seek community that is inclusive of all people. (note don't bother with examples).

Understand that the way we behave towards one another is the fullest expression of what we believe.

Question rather than believe in absolutes.

Strive for peace and justice among all people.

Strive to protect and restore the integrity of our Earth.

Continue to learn through life.

and a bonus:

Embrace love and compassion when we find it.

well this is a splitting of the eighth point.

I have zero problems with your wording and would fit in nicely. I also have no problems with the 8 points as worded. You seem to me to be too picky but that is your right and just my opinion. No offense meant.

February 8, 2020

4 hours ago, romansh said:

OK if I understand it correctly California Electors by law must cast all 55 votes in favour of Democrats if the Democrats win the popular vote in California? Or is this just precedent?

from wiki

Even though the aggregate national popular vote is calculated by state officials, media organizations, and the Federal Election Commission, the people only indirectly elect the president, as the national popular vote is not the basis for electing the president

Yes they are required to in California to cast all 55 votes to the popular vote winner along with 28 other states with that requirement.

Others states follow precedent . The electorates are from their party and not bound but it is possible but rare that they would turn on their own party. Republicans and Democrats have their own electorate. If a Democrat wins popular vote only the Democratic electorate vote. But yes it is possible in certain states for him to cross over, just not very likely since they are chosen by the corresponding party. I was once chosen as an electorate in KY but never voted because my candidate did not win. I was chosen by the candidate because i was a major donor in the party and they trusted me.

Yes the popular vote in that state is the basis for electing the president through the layer of a winning party electorate.

Hope that helps

February 8, 2020

11 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

Who is the remnant church talked about in the Bible? Throughout His Word, God has declared that He would keep a people who would obey Him and not wander from His truth. Take a look at the following verses: Isaiah 1:9, 10:20. Jeremiah 23:3, 31:7. Joel 2:32. Romans 9:27.

Only a Few will walk down the narrow path. There are so many proffesing Christians who are walking down the broad path to destruction. Because they believe they can have Jesus in one hand and the world in the other hand. But to be a part of the true remnant church we need to surrender ALL to Christ.

Pipiripi,

For a conventional Christian to become free of such dogma and doctrine, in my view, 5 false premises of the fundamental or conventional church system must be overcome. Listed by order of importance.

1. The Bible is the Word of God

2. Jesus is God

3. The Rapture

4. Sin is sin

5. Heaven or Hell

Since i am a site sponsor i would recommend this book which i authored and put the link for it here. I think it would be a great eye opener for you. It follows the writings of the Bible very closely to expose these false premises. Click here ---------> https://www.amazon.com/Throwing-Away-God-Joseph-Mattioli/dp/1553696832/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0&link_code=hom&tag=14kcharfromindej

Joseph

February 8, 2020

Sorry. Not alone. No guilt here.

February 8, 2020

5 hours ago, romansh said:

I did ask, does the electoral college have to ignore the will of the people and follow precedent.

With the exception of a couple states the electorate must cast their votes per the majority of people in each state. The electoral college is not a place , it is a layer/ process

February 7, 2020

“Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it.”– Dennis P. Kimbro

February 7, 2020

Pipiripi,

It is clear from your beliefs at your site that you are at odds at the least with point 2 of the 8 points. You are not to post in this particular Progressive Christianity forum. You are welcome to post in all other forums as long as you are within its posted guidelines

JosephM (as Admin)

February 7, 2020

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Unlike a number of my fellow Dems (and others) I have no problem with the electoral college and think a change, if considered at all, should be done very, very carefully. However the reality is that we get the government we deserve: if people want a change, they have to get out and actually vote, if not, they should stop complaining. Of course, this means that if the 'other side' if any side, is truly American they should, we should all be for as broad an electoral as possible.(snip)

I like that part Thomas.

February 7, 2020

8 hours ago, romansh said:

(snip)

The American people did not vote him … the Electoral college did. Trump (and his supporters) should remember he represents not just his base, but the vast majority of people who did not vote for him too. Over 74% of the population did not vote for him (note over 73% of the population did not vote for Hillary either). Some humility would be in order.

(snip)

The American people did elect him. The electoral college is called for in the Constitution of this Republic because the framers of our Republic wanted this extra layer, rather than just providing for the direct election of the president as in pure democracies. Most of the nation’s founders were actually rather afraid of democracy. James Madison worried about what he called “factions,” which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. the Electoral College does make it possible for a candidate to win the popular vote and still not become president. But that is less a product of the Electoral College (a process, not a place) and more a product of the way states apportion electors. In every state but Maine and Nebraska, electors are awarded on a winner-take-all basis. So if a candidate wins a state by even a narrow margin, he or she wins all of the state’s electoral votes. This helps insure that a larger sections of states is treated more fairly. ie Red went to Trump by popular vote - Blue to Hillary

Many people might think we are a democracy here but that is not accurate. We are a Republic. So far, a very successful Republic and while not perfect and with its problems it works well enough that people keep coming and most here still think its the greatest country in the world to live in.

February 6, 2020

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think Pelosi did herself and the Democrats a disservice by tearing up that address. I expect it will resonate with hardcore Dem voters but I suspect swinging voters will see it as a political stunt that looked frankly, a bit immature. Yes, once again Trump was a rude pig ignoring her like that. But I suspect that was his intention all along - push her buttons until she cracks, and she did.

I don't blame her, but I think it was a political mistake and politics is all that matters in this situation. Nope, it's a 3 for Nancy from me on this matter.

I agree she did a disservice to her party with that action on national TV. I believe if you look at the video when he handed the speech to them, as is customary, he didn't shake either her hand or Mike Pence, his vice president's hand. If he shook Mike's hand and not hers that might be considered rude. Also do you expect him to shake a persons hand that just impeached you, that hates your guts, and now has vowed to continue investigating and try to impeach him again? Democrats have been investigating and threatening to impeach him from the moment he was elected. Have faith in the American people and if they don't want 4 more years of him they won't vote for him.

February 6, 2020

3 hours ago, romansh said:

This point moves teachings to teacher … going back to a more literal stance. And it reintroduces "God", whatever that is.

The subject of the sentence is community of ALL people. This is simply shoddy prose.

Have you taken your vow Joseph?

I did not have a problem with this either … but taking a vow … the whole thing to me starts to read like more like dogma.

Fine … the only change was work for strive. Not a major problem here either.

"Protect all of creation" really? Does the universe need protecting?

Meaningful faith? Believe in stuff meaningfully without evidence … How is this new version better than the original?

"Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love"

I get a sense that the previous version had become to secular and there has been a pushback from more conservative Progressive Christians.

I call that nit-picking which is acceptable here but fails to arouse my interest or move me to even respond to each of your fault findings. Perhaps you could write the 8 points to your liking and post them here to see if others might prefer or have interest in them?

February 5, 2020

There is a hate between them. In fact you will find that people either love or hate Trump. He is not a politician and many people seem to love it. He's working in a swamp here where lip service has ruled for decades. He is holding up pretty good with the majority of News agencies being biased against him. In fact the Republican party didn't want him at first. He makes them cringe with what comes out of his mouth. He simply doesn't care what the media or democrats think. He is doing what he feels his supporters elected him for. He speaks whats on his mind like a regular person rather than trying to be presidential and use well chosen words. November will tell if the people like it or not. Based on the majority of news agencies negative reports on him you would think he doesn;'t have a chance winning in November. I think otherwise.

Did you watch Nancy stand up at the end and tear his speech up on national TV?

February 5, 2020

31 minutes ago, thormas said:

Spong was forceful at times and perhaps at times he was out to destroy the CC view but he also sought to explain his (new) view. I think it worked for PCs and it seems to have worked for a number of CCs and fallen away Christians who 'heard' what he said and liked what they heard.

Many people never met Spong and didn't know him except in his writings, in his words yet at times his compassion and peace were bodied forth in his words and hit the mark. They did for me.

I admit it seems that way but a man doesn't start to look for these new words until he becomes disappointed with the old in himself. He perceives the absence of uncertainty in the other or a hope of more certainty and peace perceived in the other else he would not even look. It is unhappiness or emptiness in oneself (in my opinion) that moves one on from CC and the new words one hears are a hope/promise that the words will change that. IMO words themselves carry no such power with a content person.

February 4, 2020

2 hours ago, Burl said:

PC is not particularly inclusive to conventional Christians.

In fact, it is often openly averse to conventionally Christianity and have seen it stated on the main site that PC feels conventional Christianity must be destroyed. Spong has definitely written that.

While i would admit Conventional Christianity beliefs often clash heavily with those of Progressives, to me, it is folly to think we can destroy this persons conventional view of religion by words. The very opposing words themselves seems to me to only strengthen the others resolve. It is by living and interacting in peace, patience and compassion in ones own beliefs that stimulate the other to become open to that which might be attributed as beneficial to the other by such beliefs.

February 4, 2020

Pipiripi,

This is a Progressive Christianity site. You seem to me to be well read concerning the Bible and your definition of PC may not fit here. Please take the time to read the 8 points of PC below. Progressive Christians as a general rule do not believe the Bible is the infallible word of God nor that Christianity is the only path to God. You may not fit into the classification of Progressive Christianity here if you are not in general agreement with these 8 points. You might be more fundamentally inclined which is okay but then you will need to start threads and not post in this part of the forum but rather in Debate and Dialog section where others will most likely disagree with your posts and wish to debate them. Let me know how you stand with the 8 points ASAP. Thanks for your attention to this.

JosephM ( as Admin)

Updated in 2020:

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who…

1. Believe that following the path of the teacher Jesus can lead to healing and wholeness, a mystical connection to “God,” as well as an awareness and experience of not only the Sacred, but the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience “God,” the Sacredness, Oneness and Unity of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom, including Earth, in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek and create community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:

Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
Believers and agnostics,
Those of all races, cultures, and nationalities
Those of all sexual orientations and all gender identities,
Those of all classes and abilities,
Those historically marginalized,
All creatures and plant life;

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe, therefore we vow to walk as Jesus might have walked in this world with radical compassion, inclusion, and bravery to confront and positively change the injustices we experience as well as those we see others experiencing;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning with an open mind and open heart, than in absolutes or dogma;

6. Work toward peace and justice among all people and all life on Earth;

7. Protect and restore the integrity of our Earth and all of Creation;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love on this journey toward a personally authentic and meaningful faith.

February 4, 2020

Quote

2020 8 Points

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who…

1. Believe that following the path of the teacher Jesus can lead to healing and wholeness, a mystical connection to “God,” as well as an awareness and experience of not only the Sacred, but the Oneness and Unity of all life;

Personally i feel it did for me. I find many of his reported teachings have helped me on my journey of life toward a connection to the whole or "God". Therefor my subjective experience has no problem with this point . One could always say well some of the reported teachings may be in error and that could well be so, but it doesn't say all his reported teachings are accurate or change the point statement for me.

Quote

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness, Oneness and Unity of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom, including Earth, in our spiritual journey;

I like this one. I have no problem with wording.

Quote

3. Seek and create community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:

Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
Believers and agnostics,
Women and men,
Those of all races, cultures, and nationalities
Those of all sexual orientations and all gender identities,
Those of all classes and abilities;
All creatures and plant life;

The adding of all creatures and plant life in context is there not to exclude in our communities that which provides a balance for us and the earth

Quote

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe, therefore we vow to walk as Jesus might have walked in this world with radical compassion, inclusion, and bravery to confront and positively change the injustices we experience as well as those we see others experiencing;

I have no problem here with wording.

IRom,

I guess i don't understand how

Quote

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning with an open mind and open heart, than in absolutes or dogma;

No problem with wording here and i don't believe this is dogma but rather just making a point.

Quote

6. Work toward peace and justice among all people and all life on Earth;

General and part of inclusiveness. I Can't fault wording.

Quote

7. Protect and restore the integrity of our Earth and all of Creation;

General and what fault can one find with this

Quote

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love on this journey toward a personally authentic and meaningful faith.

Can't see any problem with a person choosing to follow this point.

Rom,

I guess i fail to understand why you would have a problem with any of these points except perhaps the exact words used would not be your choice.

Joseph

February 4, 2020

Rom,

I'm fairly certain that no one way to word the 8 points would satisfy everyone who identifies as a progressive Christian. The main organization changes the wording as time passes. They are not the words i would personally choose but i really don't have any problems with them unless i nit-pick. The plant one needs some explanation as to what the writer had exactly in mind and if you go to the main site you might find some explanations. I'll have to check myself also. Personally, i don't consider any of them dogma. (a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true) That should be obvious by their changing every few years.

February 4, 2020

10 hours ago, thormas said:

I know that or, better, I suspect that but the question is to give P a chance to verify and then, if there is mutual interest, discuss at greater length.

Good lord, Joseph, you're now putting my name on a thread called End Time Prophecy? Really? Can't you come up with a better name or simply name yourself of P as the 'owner?'

Thomas ,

That is the title that Pipiripi requested in the thread on the 2nd page for you to change it to. It is evident to all that the thread was split and based on his original post from the quotation you used. His original thread he posted was appropriate there so i left it there. Please try not to be so sensitive. We all know you didn't choose the thread title. Carry on if you will with the subject matter if desired but be careful in your discussion as he is new here.

February 3, 2020

Pipiripi,

Many here have come to believe quite differently on subjects such as The Book of Revelations and the Bible in general when it comes to fundamental church teachings. That's why this site is called Progressive Christianity. Progressive as in new more liberal ideas. If you read

from the first post to the last you will get a feel for what PC actually is from its members which is quite different than fundamental Christianity taught by many Christian churches. You may find this site doesn't fit into your liking or perhaps it will. Also read these 8 points below to see if they are acceptable to you as the journey can be painful. Either way regardless of your personal beliefs you are welcome to participate on this site . We would be glad to have you.