JosephM
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Posts posted by JosephM
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9 hours ago, PaulS said:
Perhaps the next step in Christianity (which I think is already developing) will be to understand that one can't 'become' something that they already are.
Yes, it seems to me, that time is now and also coming. It seems to me, to be as you indicate more about realization rather than becoming.
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10 hours ago, PaulS said:
I didn't think I was saying God is the hate in man (as like you, I think hate is just a current condition of genetic and conditioned individual and collective consciousness in the creature at the present stage of its evolution). Hate is purely a human-thinking term and emotion. There is no such thing as 'hate' or 'love' outside of our mind. The physical manifestation of things we do/see that we judge as hate or love (or some other degree in between) are all the experience of God living. Or so I think anyway.
You weren't. I was just commenting on your post to clarify any possible reader misunderstanding and to amplify on your postulate that God was indeed not separate. I probably should have commented without the repost of your quote.
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11 hours ago, PaulS said:
The alternative that you seem to lean toward, to me seems to suggest that God is separate to existence. I don't believe that is or can be the case. If God is in all things, then God is the man who loves as well as the man who hates.
Anyway, that's just my take on it.
Perhaps God is not the man but merely the substrate that allows man (the creature) to be. In that respect, God is not the hate in man but the hate is rather a current condition of genetic and conditioned individual and collective consciousness in the creature at the present stage of its evolution. So, while God is not separate from his creation or man, it is the illusory ego that evolved in the thinking mind we know as 'i' or 'me' or 'self' or Joe, Paul, etc that creates that dichotomy that makes up opposites such as love and hate, good and evil, etc.. Without an ego hate and evil is non-existent in the creature. All things are seen as One and accepted (loved). Hate then cannot in reality exist.
Just musing
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Here is an adaptation from Spongs book on Eternal Life that may be of interest to those in this conversation here.
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3 hours ago, thormas said:
Thus, the real life spoken of is God but it is Joe, Paul, Tom and all who are called to live it as it becomes theirs. For this they were created by Life/Love.
The creature is not the name Joe, Paul, or Tom. Its just a creature that has evolved a bit further in the process than others. God is in all and none are more special or loved than the other except possibly in their own mind. Just ask the mouse or the Lion or the elephant.
QuoteThere is only God/Being and a diverse creation sustained by God but the Christian belief is that the human person who is Joe or Paul are not characters in a natural evolution but those who are gifted and empowered by Life to share in the infinity that is God. The insight is that the Self 'let's be' a 'multiplicity' of selves to have abundant Life.
You are sharing in that infinity along with every other creature right now. Infinity is the state or quality of being infinite.God is infinite. It comes from the Latin word without end. Every creature by default is sharing in that infinity/without end by virtue of the presence of God/Life that is required to sustain the creature. However the creature returns to dust and eventually the formless. So Spong doesn't have to be referring to the afterlife when he say that we (the creature) can and must share in that infinity. Of course we can and must share because as physical beings we do share in God even if we do do not realize it.
It really doesn't matter to me what Spong believes though from reading i do think he indicates he "believes in life beyond death" but you have to read his book "Eternal Life" to find out what he means. In the book Spong jettisons the myth that God is other. Spong proposes a way, one that involves being “fully human.” We are not really separated from God, he asserts. Rather “we are part of what God is and we are at one with all that God is.” We are finite, but we share in infinity. We are mortal, but we share in immortality. Spong writes , “when I die I will rest my case in the ‘being’ of which I am a part . . . I step beyond words at this point into the wonder of a wordless reality.” To me, he rest his case in the being of God. All else was created is finite, is mortal and dies. If one lives afterlife it will be as a memory of God not the Joe, Paul, or Tom you know.
QuoteI guess part of our disagreement is that I don't see humans beings as characters created to entertain (who? God?) or Life having any need or desire of such creation if not to share that which 'I AM.'
I take back the word entertain. It was a poor choice of words by me the creature. The mortal always seeks reasons of why the immortal would desire creation. Perhaps you might agree with me saying creation is the nature of the Creator?
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3 hours ago, thormas said:
As an aside, I'm not sure what 'shedding the body' means to you - I do not have a definitive opinion on a body or a spiritual body after death but I do agree with Spong and others that 'person' shares the infinity of God. However, it is not so much a 'return' to the Absolute as it is a continuation, a fullness in the Infinity (already experience here and now) that is ever-present and eternal. Once experienced or, better, made manifest in the human, nothing can separate person from the Infinity that is God and that already has begun man's divinization.
Shedding the body - falling off of the body / physical death This leaves the one who created and sustained the body in the first place. From experience in this life, when divinity is experienced the body is in a sense dead even though it it yet alive . The same is spoken of in Col 3:3 For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. This real life spoken of is not Joe or Paul or Thomas but rather Christ the Light of God now. There is only One God but many forms of creatures sustained by God and when the creatures have perished there remains only the formless God that was in the beginning. So as far as afterlife is concerned, Joe , Paul and Thomas were just characters in the evolution of creation much like a movie that was created for one's entertainment. It seems to me, there is no permanent self except in fairy tales, only Self which is God, the great I am.
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2 hours ago, thormas said:
Actually, Paul you and Spong are saying different things. Transforming into the divine (or the afterlife or infinity) might and does mean different things for different believers but Spong says it is the human person who shares that infinity. Spong speaks of the self-consciousness that is man 'entering/sharing' the universal consciousness that is God - and he repeatedly speaks of 'I' or the human person: "There is one consciousness (God), but self-conscious people alone can know it. I am finite but I share in infinity, I am mortal but I share in immortality." And, "I can...share in that infinity."
He is speaking not of Paul's atoms but of Paul, the self-conscious person, sharing infinity. It is apparent that if he wanted to say it was our atoms or sharing in the cosmos (not God), he would have had no reservations and he would have stated that clearly. Spong is honest and he does assert that the self-conscious human person 'can and must' share infinity and he does assert the divination of the human being. He explicitly says what you said he did not??
Of course he refutes the anthropomorphic take on God: that is tradition theism which he rejects. You miss that as Spong rejects theism he shares a new vision and I am referencing that new vision in this discussion and in his own words.
Spong isn't referring to the afterlife because he admits “Nobody knows what the afterlife is all about; nobody even knows if there is one". What he is referring to is life here now and that we "can and must" share (present tense) as a person in that infinity ( divine nature/ God). And of course we all do because we are divine at our deepest level whether we are aware of it or realize it or not. It could not be otherwise, especially since it seems to me that you believe that God is the very source of our existence and God is in and through all. So, it stands to reason that we are now sharing in that divinity/infinity. Unfortunately, we shed the body and all physical aspects of the body which was created and in time vanishes back to the formless.
From what i have said , after this life or series of lives (take your pick 🙂), you can then reason that you are not the body or anything that is physical in the body but rather that portion that returns to the formless that i call God/ The unmanifest which is now sustaining form. That is why i continue to say find out who the real I am/I is and you will see the illusion that you call and i call Thomas.
Your welcome. 🙂
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3 hours ago, thormas said:
Yet there are some who say life is an accident, a fluke and it has no meaning - yet it exists.
All egos assign meaning while it is only known by the Self/Life yet someone like a Spong asserts that it is the human person (the ego freed of its own self-importance) who is valued and called by Self to divination and created to share Life/infinity.
When the human ego is freed from the creature, only the Self shines and remains, even though the body still lives and life goes on. Chop wood, carry water. 🙂
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10 hours ago, PaulS said:
The conglomerate of atoms called 'Paul' dies so to speak but the atoms that made Paul Paul, return to the ecosystem and continue to be part of the eternal cosmos. Even when this universe possibly ceases to exist in billions and billions of years time, the substance that was Paul will still exist in some other form. What that all means for 'us', for our consciousness, for our egos, remains to be understood, if it can be. But I am certain that even without my ego or consciousness that I understand to be Paul, my life is meaningful. It cannot be otherwise or else it wouldn't exist.
Very profound statement in my view. I would only suggest this small change to this sentence. "Even when this universe possibly ceases to exist in billions and billions of years time, the substance that was Paul will still exist in some other form. " to ....Even when this universe possibly ceases to exist in billions and billions of years time, the substance that was Paul will still exist in the formless.
Yes, life itself is meaningful else it wouldn't exist. It seems to me, many egos assign their own meaning to life but it cannot be know to the ego only to Life itself.
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6 hours ago, thormas said:
The Spong I read says, "I have found in the quest for personhood an ability to embrace infinity which leads me to the conclusion that I can and must share in that infinity." and "I believe deeply that this life that I love so passionately is not all there is. This life is not the end of life." And this from a chapter entitled 'I believe in Life beyond death.'
Then there is one of my favorites: ".......finitude finally fades into infinity, earth is the doorway to heaven and the human is and can be transformed into the divine."
Personhood - The small self, the created creature person, the one with his/her story, name , form and the rest of the baggage. Infinity - the Self/God. That person that embraces infinity is lead to the conclusion that that infinity/Self/God/Life (which is eternal) of which self has embraced as his source and shared in must share in that Life eternal. And indeed we all share in that infinity because that infinity is our creator and the very substrate of creation. At that level we as persons, as with the rest of life here, are One with infinity. Life after death? Yes for Infinity/Self but not for the created creature person that in a dichotomy sense houses that which is Self and is sustained by it, and is designed to live and die at the pleasure of its Self.
I quote Spong ..... "“Heaven and Hell have got to go” and “Until we dismiss all concepts of reward and punishment, we can’t walk into concepts of life after death.” and “Nobody knows what the afterlife is all about; nobody even knows if there is one" So logically i would doubt that his statement you referenced meant he believed in an afterlife . It might fit into more of an interpretation i postulated above.
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PS. A study of Hebrew and the word translated in the KJV of the Bible in Genesis reveals man is a shadow of God. A shadow is not the real thing. It is an illusion or phantom. Who's phantom is it? God of course. It is God disguised as a person as all things are disguised that are created in this world.
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וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֔ים נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה אָדָ֛ם בְּצַלְמֵ֖נוּ כִּדְמוּתֵ֑נוּ וְיִרְדּוּ֩ בִדְגַ֨ת הַיָּ֜ם וּבְע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמַ֗יִם וּבַבְּהֵמָה֙ וּבְכָל־הָאָ֔רֶץ וּבְכָל־הָרֶ֖מֶשׂ הָֽרֹמֵ֥שׂ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃
And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. They shall rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle, the whole earth, and all the creeping things that creep on earth.”
Image (Strong's #6754)
The word צלם (tselem) is literally a shadow which is the outline or representation of the original.It can be translated as a shadow / image / phantom.
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Consider Plato's ....... The 'Allegory Of The Cave' is a theory put forward by Plato, concerning human perception. Plato claimed that knowledge gained through the senses is no more than opinion and that, in order to have real knowledge, we must gain it through philosophical reasoning.The shadows represent a false vision of the truth, an illusion about reality. ... Plato represents the philosopher with the brave prisoner who climbs out of the cave to discover the real world, and who wants so badly for his fellow prisoners to know the truth, that he voluntarily climbs back into the cave to tell them.
In my personal view, climbing out of the cave and seeing for yourself far exceeds a lifetime of philosophical reasoning .... but each to his/her own.
Joseph
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5 hours ago, thormas said:
Joseph,
I just don't see Jesus talking about anything like a disguise. Do you have another word that might work?
Nor do I see Jesus claiming 'Godhood' or identifying himself with 'Self' or speaking of an 'enlightenment' that reveals him as the Self in disguise - except the identification in John which is a much later development. Jesus is always 'in God' and while we can speak of a him 'being God/Self' - Jesus always saw God but when Peter said as Thou, as Father.
Use the word hidden if you like it better and re-read all the posts and you might get the gist.
However this is my last attempt ....Jesus was indeed not God/Self because as a man he was a creature we refer to as a human/person. However, he Jesus the person realized that the flesh profited nothing and willingly sacrificed it because he understood that " in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;" The /Self/God was in and through him and he knew it and if one doesn't believe the writings they can better yet experience it for themself. He also is recorded saying if you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father was present in him and manifested but to many they could not see through the disguise of the person Jesus. In reality God/Self/Pure Awareness/The One etc was present as he is in you but to the eyes of most others Jesus was just a person. Hence I say when a person comes to the full realization of who they are at the deepest level, the Self appears and one knows that the person is just a disguise because in absolute reality there is only God. The rest is not what it seems. Therefor in the beginning i said to you in my first post on page 6 ... "You are Awareness disguised as a person."
QuoteAs for Paul, it still does not seem as if the 'who you are' is the Self - rather it is is with the Christ, the one who is fully Human (so to speak) and 'in' God. I do see the difference between a mind set on things and self (as in selfishness) as opposed to taking on the mind of Christ but still, in Christianity, this is not identification or equality with Self. We can speak of this as an 'identification' or a 'sameness' but, in Christianity, the human is the child of the Father not the Father, not the Self in itSelf.
Christ is the Self. Christ is not a name, its a title like Buddha. In the Greek language the root word Christ (Christos) means anointed one and if you look at the root words it is as in a smearing together of you the creature and God. You are already together but until you realize it or 'are caught up together' you think you are separate and that the person with the name and form you have is real . I think in my experience, Buddhism says it best but it is cold and hard to swallow ..... "absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned, itself alone is, all else has always been, is, and always will be just a state of make-believe fiction, a state of delusion worn like a costume with multiple fabricated viewpoints, with each self-sustaining itself in a self-perpetuated state of self-ignorance, until each decides to come to closure through self-enlightenment and self-awakening".
QuoteI do get the idea of one's true life 'hidden' (although the use of that word can be misleading) in Christ and revealed (and found) in Christ but I don't see Jesus speaking of that hidden life as disguise for the Self. I do get the idea of others, including one's self not seeing the true you (Who do you say the I am or Who do you see?) until one incarnates the Christ and thus is in God - however, I don't see that the person/creature is Self disguised.
So lose the word if you don't like it. Try not to get hung up on one word. If you are dead (not physically) and your life is hid in Christ, it is hid in God. If Jesus were raised as a Buddhist or Hindu, he might use the word Self instead of Father or something else. 🙂
QuoteI know this stuff can be a bit exhausting and, again, I thank you. I do get (I believe) a good deal of the gist - however not sure I agree with the entire explanation or the interpretation of some of the holy books and holy men (although I will refer to your references).
Agreement is not important. Everything is as it is.
QuoteThe disguise: we are the creation of God - I would add, not the equivalent of the Self and I would further add, not the Self in disguise - we are the creation.
If you were the creation, then you are surely dead for nothing that is created in this world is permanent and survives and leaves this world. Only that which creates survives. Til you know who you are, "Who am I" the delusion continues and the fairy tale lives.
QuoteI agree that we all die and but I would say the created creature is the not yet (for most) the real 'me' because it is being transformed in Christ and thereby becoming the real or fully real-ized me (how many lives does this take, who knows). However, where I differ is although I agree that God is in his creatures and he is hidden (at an epistemological distance so they might freely chose him) - he is not disguised as them. I and Christianity see God as more generous (for lack of a better word): God 'let's be' and his letting be is that creation might have life, abundant life in/with God. God does not require a disguise and does not disguise himself as his created creatures. However (and this remains unclear), if you mean that God as Life, Love, Way, is in man until man realizes that Presence and chooses it, I can agree but I have been taking your words to mean that God is disguised as men, women and all creation.
I believe that self inquiry can many times be blind and I think a reliance, a sharing with others (be it in person or in a book by a long dead author or sage) is essential to understanding and growth. Some of the sages , if I remember correctly, were/are very learned men and women and many wrote so that others could learn and see.
That sounds pretty good to me except the part of free choice and that God is not disguised as them. It seems to me, If God wasn't disguised in people then everyone could plainly see God in all creation and there would be no one asking for proof of God. Yes?
On sages, it seems to me, most don't bother writing . It is usually their followers that later do the writing. I think there is good reason for that. The sage job is not to explain away your questions but rather to assist you in finding Self/ Christ wherein is hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
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4 hours ago, thormas said:Well have any who have found the Self and are interested in others reported back about the disguise? It seems that Jesus found the Self but there is no report or hint that he believed it was disguised as men and women??
And yes some have found Self and reported back. Hindu sages like Ramana Marharshi, Enlightened Buddhists, Jesus and many others. Some use different words but the story is the same.
Disguised is my word to you. Jesus said " Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" He was speaking to the living not the physically dead.
And Paul in Col 3 said "Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God." Can't you see that as long as your mind is set on the things in the earth you will not realize who you are at a deeper level? At that point it is realized that your life is hidden in Christ even though your life is still disguised to others as living as the person/creature Thomas. Is that enough of a hint to you?
Yes, It was inevitable. It was predestined. Enjoy the movie.
QuoteIs it seeking answers or is it seeking enlightenment?
Again, there was no discussion of disguise with Jesus and, as you know, the 'I am' statements are the creation of John and doubtful that they were on the lips of Jesus.
Even the Father in me and I in the Father does not of necessity mean I am the Father in disguise or that I am literally the Father.
Joseph, if one knows why the disguise then it seems they would or could take pains to explain the why. If they won't that is one issue, if they can't that is another issue.
Again, thanks.
Enlightenment is not something to seek. It is present in all and not lost to find. It is realized by the creature. The Self already knows these things. Find the Self and you will know.
Well i have provided some writings above and i don't expect your blind acceptance of my use of the word disguise. But perhaps you can get the gist of it from what i have said.
Why the disguise? Because you are the created creature of God. You will physically die as does all creation and the real you is not the creature. Self/God eternal is disguised as a creature/person whether Jesus , Thomas or Joseph until realized. God doesn't require a disguise. Regardless of what a book says , it is verifiable by self inquiry and watching the mind until , like the sages before us, you are able to see the illusion through the veil .
Best Wishes,
Joseph
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1 hour ago, thormas said:
Again - the disguise, why? Why is it a point in evolution? That at least though seems like a partial answer for the disguise And it must be that Awareness if also disguised as all that is part of the created order, all in the cosmos and the cosmos itself. But if all Awareness is God, why does God disguised as person or creation need to evolve in consciousness? If there is evolution, as you have said, that speaks to a becoming - becoming enlightened (becoming aware). There does seem to be a need to attain or cultivate awareness: evolution of human consciousness.
Find the Self and your why question will disappear. You are already enlightened, the creature that identifies as Thomas just hasn't realized it yet. Thomas is lost in the world but not really since Thomas is illusory like a character in a movie..
1 hour ago, thormas said:I wonder if man, in this form and in this world (so to speak) can truly and fully give up awareness of other things - at the very least one could then trip over one of those things, the ottoman when they get up for yet another thing that was supporting them, the couch? Humorous but also a serious question.
It seems much is hidden, why and why does the Self hid wisdom in holy books for itSelf - if it is all awareness?
Man in general in time is lost in the world. "You are in the world but you are not of the world" (Jesus) Each night in deep sleep, the world disappears and pure awareness remains. That is closer to your true nature than either your dream or awake state. Enlightened, you realize you the creature are in the world doing that which is your purpose but your awareness is not 'lost' in the world. (never really lost since it is always present, just the creature hasn't realized its presence all the time)
1 hour ago, thormas said:Joseph, I am not busting your chops, rather I am asking serious questions. I allow you are onto something but there are gaps and questions abound.
I see that you can relate this to Christ but Christianity does not hold that man is the Self or God - rather man is the child of Self born to share the Life of Self - begun here (or perhaps even in a prior existence) but once given, received and lived - it is never lost (eternal). Even "gather together in one all things in Christ" speaks of the many created for abundance in/with the One Self/God.
The more you seek answers, the more questions that will arise. It seems to me it is better to reside in Pure Awareness. Be present and discover Self.
In Christianity Jesus related to being one with God . Self. He did say "I and my Father are one" John 10:30 ... and Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us John 17:20-21 The NT does equate Jesus with God through out the gospel of John. Re-read the first chapter of John and tell me if it disagrees. Christ is the true light. The creature dies but Christ, the light remains.
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32 minutes ago, thormas said:
Interesting but are we pure awareness if our awareness is so different one to another and even in the individual self? And disguised - why disguised, what would be the need for or the purpose of a disguise? Perhaps there is another way to approach this but this doesn't resonate, seems to speak of a mind/body conflict and also seems a throwback to older philosophies and even gnosticism.
I get that Thormas dies but if awareness continues is it still becoming aware or is it a one time limited thing (say 3 years for some and 85 years for others)? And why hide in Christ, what do you mean here: hid from what?
If person lives, dies and evolves - evolves to what and is this evolution at all the responsibility or work of the person (and again is it a limited 89 year deal or does it continue)?
What is awareness after death when it hides in Christ? Is it person or form of another kind?
Thanks.
Awareness is awareness. There is only one God and one awareness. Awareness is no different in the person i call me or the person i call Thomas. It is your thinking mind and ego (which is a product of your myriad of conditioning from life here including genetics that makes us appear as what you refer to as different awareness. It is your thoughts whether you are conscious of them or not that cause such a belief. In summary ... You are Awareness disguised as a person. No purpose or need for the disguise .... it is just a point in the evolution of human consciousness.
Awareness was always awareness. It is not becoming aware. Since you are awareness there is no need to attain or cultivate it. All that you have to do is to give up being aware of other things, that is of the not-self. If one gives up being aware of them then pure awareness alone remains, and that is the Self. You could equate that with God if you realize Self.
Now Self from a Christian perspective and words ..... Col 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." (He is talking to the living not physically dead.) But of course not everyone has yet realized this. Now here is the mystery revealed for all Christians . Same mystery found hidden throughout the Bible.
Eph 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
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16 hours ago, PaulS said:
It seems to me this train of thought has developed as we grew our brains and became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years. It does seem like a man-made development rather than any reality that has been lying in the wings waiting until we get to a certain spiritual or mental capacity to reveal itself. As my logic suggests to me anyway.
8 hours ago, thormas said:Is it obsession? It seems that man, by his very nature, is a transcendent being always looking beyond himself to the more - and thus the search for meaning.
But what human being would want to be the tree, plant insect or reptile? Again, it seems 'built in' that we look for meaning given our particular evolution. Seems that requiring meaning is a requirement of human life.
Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning.
Anyway thanks, it's always fun.
As Paul said we evolved and "our brains became a different species over hundreds of thousands of years" The mind that was to be used as a tool came with a fundamental flaw or some might call dysfunction. A kind of form of collective mental illness. Hindu sages call it maya or the veil of delusion. Buddhism says the mind in its normal state generates dukkha. (suffering) Christianity calls it "original sin" but sin has been misunderstood and misinterpreted by many fundamental teachings. Paul in the NT says "the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Hinduism and Buddhism's answer is to be enlightened. Christianity's answer is to have the 'mind of Christ with Christ representing being meshed together with God as One. Even Jesus said he spoke not his own words or did his own work but rather the words and work of the Father who sent him.
The problem is as man started naming things and creating dichonomies such as 'good and evil' (eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) etc etc.. The thinking mind gradually took on an identity of its own (an ego) and now sits in the temple of God (the/your body) as if it is separate and is god. The body is created and evolving and flowering and eventually there will be a radical transformation of human consciousness and all will evolve past this dysfunction but each human in their own order and time. Most all major religions use different words but the story is the same.
Thomas, you ask "Even the meaning 'in Life itself' begs the question: what is that meaning." It doesn't beg it in me. It's the dysfunction of the mind that begs the question. Life is its own meaning. Find the One who animates and the question will disappear. How can the human creature itself understand the meaning of Life without knowing first "who am I"?
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5 hours ago, thormas said:
I don't see God simply as energy but ok for this discussion.
So animation is illusory (not as it seems ) but, as you said, there still is the animation of all. Man in death 'shuts down' as that particular form that is animated? If man does shut down then is it the case that the particular man is not part of the all? All that is part of the all is the unmanifest?
Well on the energy bit, like i said "some might say" .
Form is animated. You (Thomas) are form. You in reality are pure awareness now disguised as a person. The person is created and shuts down... awareness continues. Thomas dies and his life is hid in Christ which is in God, the Life, Truth, and the Light that lights (animates) every one that comes into the world. No exceptions as it couldn't be otherwise for God/That Light is in and through all but the person and form is a creation that lives, dies and evolves. You may think you are ... but you are not ... that person for everything created dies. The person Thomas was created and is illusory.
All that is part of the all is both manifest and unmanifest yet only the unmanifest is not created.
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4 hours ago, thormas said:
As we have discussed before, this position intrigues me: what is God, why animate anything/everything and if all shuts down how is God One with all?
God is Life. Some might say unlimited energy. The one Life that animates all of form. The substrate of your very perceived existence. Why animate anything/everything? Because that is the nature of Life and creation. The animation is illusory as in not as it seems to the senses . Life doesn't shut down, it merely changes form to the unmanifest and gives that appearance to form over the concept of time . We refer to that animation as life (small l ) as that is temporal but Life (big L) is eternal and the Father of all that is both seen and unseen. Feel that energy, aliveness and Life that is doing the animation.
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13 hours ago, PaulS said:
Life after death is not a requirement for ultimate oneness. We all came from the same atoms as a result of the big bang and those atoms will continue to exist long after our consciousness shuts down. That is the ultimate oneness - we all come from the same stardust.
It seems to me, while we all come from the same stardust and return to such in the concept of time, and brain consciousness and memory appears to shut down, the Life that animated such, which is One with all and experienced as awareness without thought ... continues. That is Life. That is God.
13 hours ago, PaulS said:See above. Ultimate oneness doesn't need consciousness - it just is. I think it is the ego in our consciousness that tells us there cannot be any oneness if one's ego/consciousness ceases to exist.
It seems to me, ultimate oneness is consciousness. Ego is not consciousness but rather an illusory created person by consciousness itself with a beginning and end. Consciousness is at its simplest, awareness of existence, which is Life itself with or without the illusion of a person.
13 hours ago, PaulS said:the fact that some think there is a level of judgement, punishment or correction required means we are already judging other's actions and creating those that 'qualify' for heaven directly and those that don't. Even 'degrees' of temporary torment or punishment or cleansing or whatever you want to call it, calls for judgment to be made and it is a typical human behavior that we want to start establishing what we think those actions and behaviors need to be. It is human judgment - all completely natural and part of our being, but something very human nonetheless in my view.
Yes. i would agree.
13 hours ago, PaulS said:I don't think it's a prejudice to acknowledge that our ego drives us to certain ways of thinking. Its a pretty major Buddhist concept that our egos drive us to think like we do.
Yes. i would agree
13 hours ago, PaulS said:I don't understand why you or others think that if they cease to have consciousness that their life has no meaning. You lose consciousness every night - did that day mean nothing to anybody because you are presently not conscious during your sleep? Of course not.
To me, Life is its own meaning. One can assign whatever meaning to this life as they wish but but ultimately this thing most call life is more entertainment than meaning, much like a movie and filled with drama. To me, consciousness is not lost at night, it merely loses the concept of time. Awareness remains and when not in deep sleep awareness can be conscious. In my view, most of the time while awake we think we are conscious but in reality we are unconsciously following the conditioned programmed mind.
13 hours ago, PaulS said:But more to the point, I think it is more about being at peace with one's non-existence after death. Clearly a lot of people don't want loss of consciousness to be the end so they possibly conflate meaning for this life with continued existence. I don't.
I think of all the people who have gone before me - Buddha, Jesus, Einstein, Galileo, Plato etc etc. I hardly think their life is meaningless just because they no longer have an existing consciousness. If there is no afterlife, do you think Jesus' life was meaningless to humanity, that it was a waste of time to tell people to treat others with love? Galileo was just wasting his time determining that the earth rotated around the sun? The higher learnings that Plato shared with the world are of no regard?
To me, it seems the ultimate selfishness if saying one's life has no meaning if they can't exist beyond it. Such a view selfishly disregards what their life has provided to others, what influence they have had on others, how they have helped others grow and develop. How on earth could you consider that meaningless just because you personally can no longer look back on it?
Humans seem to me to be the only ones obsessed with finding meaning. Nature just does its thing. Perhaps we can learn from it. The tree, the plant , the insect, the reptile goes about its business living, changing form (dying), and evolving through procreation. We do the same and It seems to me requiring meaning need not be a requirement to live. Just be.
Heaven and hell seem to be products of the mind. To the living, they may be everyday realities experienced by the thinking mind. To each his own but baby steps as we evolve past the mind created illusions of life. There seems to me to be much truth in the saying .... we (our minds) make our own heaven or hell here on earth. Pleasure and pain may be present in all living but life to me, requires no particular meaning that is not in Life itself. Afterlife? That would, in the mind's terms, presume there was a Beforelife. One , both, none ... take your pick. Seems to me it isn't really that important. It is what it is. Live life.
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On 2/26/2020 at 11:50 AM, Pipiripi said:
Joseph
My friend the BIBLE.
Believe what is written in the Bible and follow Jesus. Ask yourself why till today all sick people are still healing in the name of Jesus.
If there was magician in the time before Jesus in the Bible and till today they are doing magic, why is it difficult to trust God?
I have a question for you: How old are you? But used an Atheist calendar to show me your age.
Which version? You did not answer the question i asked. Also other religions could make the same claim. Where does it say in the Bible that God said to write the 66 books that comprise it? Who choose the 66 books from the more than 100 and when?
Are "all sick people are still healing in the name of Jesus "? Howbeit, there are some healed and some are not? Yet you use the word "all sick people"
How old am i? what calendar would you have me use?
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4 hours ago, thormas said:
I don't see the US response as an overkill at all and suspect, given the experts, that it should have been earlier and should be broader - for a set time in the hope of curtailing the spread.
If delaying the inevitable is also limiting the inevitable, I'm in.
Fingers crossed for the world.
Yes, delaying the inevitable will save lives up to a point as our hospitals couldn't handle greater numbers at this time and would have to choose who gets a ventilator and who doesn't. Where that point is ..... i certainly don't know.
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Joseph Mattioli
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Paul,
Austrailia is spread out without a lot of big cities like the US. The majority of our cases are in 4 states out of 50. Perhaps that also has much to do with your relatively few cases at this time. You seem to be doubling your number of cases weekly now and it may be expanding. We are doubling every 6 days now but started with about 1000 cases earlier than you. It must be very contagious as it seems to spread quickly even with all our lock-downs and guidelines in place. You hit app 1000 known cases on the 18th Mar We were there on the 10th of Mar. You may see a dramatic increase over the next few weeks. It seems to me it will take its course and all we are doing is delaying the inevitable so our hospitals can handle the load of the serious cases. We can't hide forever without destroying our economies completely which will bring on more serious problems.
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Thanks for the response.
What is God's power in this world?
in General Discussion
Posted
We (the creature) as was written of Jesus may have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in us bodily if we are dwelling in Christ. Only because the creature dies do we say i am not God. If we speak from dwelling in Christ (ego is cast aside/ self dead) , it is not the creature speaking at that moment and we can say i and God are one. In the next moment we may be dwelling in self again and while God has not gone anywhere we may be back in the conditioned self.
In that moment , Jesus would say "Jesus turned to Peter and said, “Get away from me, Satan! You are a dangerous trap to me. You are seeing things merely from a human point of view, not from God’s.” 🙂🙂😄
In my experience, enlightenment is realization of that which is always present which includes have had, and have now. The creature may experience moments of enlightenment and drift in and out of it I understand it can be permanent but i have only experienced something called "Satori" by Buddhists whereby one is "seeing into one's true nature". Moments of enlightenment are all i am truly familiar with. In those moments it is obvious that that nature/God was always present and is always present whether realized or not. In my experience, those moments are in the absence of conditioned thinking. It is more a knowing without thought at that moment in time that comes from a yielding / submission of self. Unspeakable peace and joy has always been present in those moments even under extreme life threatening conditions. Unfortunately, a pattern of obsessive and conditioned thinking has always returned to date.