JosephM

Derek, OK. That is more my style. Now that is one I can understand. It was not much applicable to my parents and myself ( I CAME HERE MESSED UP ALREADY ) However I can surely understand and relate to it and would prefer the last line to read "and start looking for your self" Joseph

Dear Derek, Well, I guess those two were my favorites. that is all i know.... Tried to read Robert Frost one time and gave up. Believe me I had trouble even understanding what i wrote... And yes all is vanity .... i just make no pretense about it like you. joseph

Derek, Something later in life and more Zen- like .... copyrighted on back cover of book but printed here with permission of course. Never really got into poetry perhaps because i could never really understand it at depth. But this is more simple minded.... Current Present Task by Joseph Mattioli A man can be about as happy, as he will allow himself to be; In spite of things and circumstance, that happen to you and me. A man can look outside himself, to find the reasons why; But the one that looks inside himself, will do more than just to try! A longer journey we all seek, and refuge we do find; But all our plans are spoiled at last, cause time leaves us behind. So if you understand my point, then you will never ask; To be satisfied by other, than the current... present... task.

OK Derek and Karen you romanticists... poetry it is. This and one other is all i got.... A Tree Like me (written 40years ago) A tree that grows beside the water A tree whose branches sweep majestically inside is sadly led asunder But time has come It grips the earth no longer filled with hunger but only strength to reach the sky and shade the earth below

Karen, He is in the middle of a difficult move for him right now but I will give him a call on his day off to see how things are going and when he will be back. I miss him also. Glad you enjoyed the bulletin. Joseph

The current E-bulletin for November 2009 containing articles of interest to Progressives and others can be found here. Joseph

It would seem to me both reasonable and obvious that there are indeed consequences from what you refer to as cruelty and non-cruelty. It seems to me that One cannot be at internal peace and rest and do harm to another. In my experience, the two are spiritually not compatible. One who is at rest and peace inside has no desire to harm another as it in effect harming his/her own present well being. The one is a consequence of the other. Perhaps if one looks at internal peace and rest as heaven, then your statement, to me, has significance as long as it doesn't refer to a physical place called 'heaven' nor is limited to an afterlife. Just a view to consider concerning your comment. Joseph

Hi Adi and all, I have included an official TCPC.org statement on the eight points by Bob Ryder, a former executive council member. As you may note the 8 points were written to avoid a dogmatic and literalistic understanding. In my opinion, when they are all taken together as a whole, Point 4 in general becomes clearer as any orientation that is not a 'matter of consent' would in my view, violate a general principle of other points. I would think there are probably rapists and other categories that presently exist in present day churches that the people are unaware of. But it seems to me, that once such behavior is exposed and deemed harmful or at risk to others, whether PC or otherwise, proper action will be taken to protect others. I do not personally believe that we need to break down point 4 into a more legal or dogmatic understanding in light of TCPC stated intentions and the 8 points as a whole. Where PC goes from here is in my view, any-body's guess. Fred Plumer, TCPC President calls this a "progressive experiment" in an article which can be found here. As far as the original question goes that Bill posed and specifically mentioned in Post 1 being 1. Pedophiliacs? 2. Rapists? 3. Those who commit incest? 4. Sadomasicists? I think it is presently generally accepted that those Bill mentioned above, if believed to endanger others by taking the 8 points as a whole, would not be welcomed in PC community. What the future will bring in change concerning that point is something that to me is best left, at least to me, to the future. Joseph

Sorry if I have offended you Bill, I haven't decided anything. I was just expressing my opinion as you can see if you will look at the entire sentence you took it from in post 5 here. And I stand by my statement of appreciation for you bringing up the issue not only for yourself but for the benefit of others who might have that in the back of their mind. Love in Christ, Joseph

Janet, I think you make a good point that Jesus, from what we have read in the Bible, would have talked to anyone that was truely interested in the things of God. I think that says much. If they were interested in hearing and discussing such issues and questions which are raised here it would seem to me good and who are we to withhold what we are freely given. Of course, continued fellowship with one who is not interested in love and respect for other humans would not be wise and i doubt that one who does harm to others would remain interested for long in such conversation as we have unless he/she had the desire to change. Besides, if their posts were of a lack of respect for others or hurtful or offensive nature, they would be appropriately excluded here as i would think they would also be excluded in other progressive church meetings. Perhaps each case is different and needs to be considered as it arises. I think Mike also makes a good point with black-and-white viewpoints. "There is definitely more to life than what exists at either extreme". It seems to me enough to deal with one day at a time. Bill, thanks for raising the question for consideration as I think it might have been in the back of the mind of others also. Joseph

Bill, I think point 5 says a lot as regards to point 4 and to bre truthful I think it is good not to over-define principles. You ask.... "So what is to prevent PC's from "progressing" to where these other forms of sexual expression won't simply be seen and accepted as an "alternate lifestyle"?" It seems to me that nothing prevents such a thing though it seems highly unlikely. All things seem to me to be subject to change. However, personally, i don't believe hypothetical questions such as this need to be addressed by Progressive Christianity at this time, nor does it , in my view, have a basis in current reality. While it may be interesting to discuss or think about, in my view only, i see no meaningful purpose for PC to be concerned with this until and unless it becomes an issue to do so. Just my opinion, Joseph

Bill, In my view, I think all the points have to be considered as a whole. Obviously, if someone was currently practicing a sexual orintation that expressed behavior that did harm to others or was in principle in direct oppossition to the other 7 points, the answer would be no. Fellowship would definitely not be of mutual benefit. Joseph

You can find some really progressive music here. from the TCPC.org site and by possibly googling on that artist for other albums. Joseph

Tariki, As always you raise thoughtful points. For how can we escape our thoughts when 'the lives of some around us who suffer beyond our capacity to even understand' when we are having "A GOOD INNING", as you say, when we all agree that God is Love? That is a thought that I would think has plagued many of us at some time. It would seem to me that this was the stimulus that created a myriad of myths concerning the afterlife that is still entertained by religions today. Perhaps the real answer to these thoughts is found not in concepts or myths but grasped in a deeper understanding of Love, that polar opposites are indeed merely degrees on a continuum and in the acceptance of the temporal and ephemeral nature of life in this linear domain where 'this to will pass'. Or perhaps one may bypass all this intellectual stuff by identification through either self-enquiry or the practice of unconditional love to realize ones true nature. I share your Buddhist embrace of "duality" and "non-duality" not being seen as opposites. To me, there can be no separation where unity exists and reality is indeed complete and without parts as is. As to whether there is "room in eternity for differentiation not just a total absorption", it seems to me that whatever state it is, will be agreeable to all. Love, Joseph

I think Bill makes a good point, It seems to me that if one lives mostly in the future or by future promises one will essentially die to the present. One will not recognize that which is 'at hand' now. It also seems to me that the good news Jesus proclaimed was also 'at hand' and not in the distant future except to those who placed their faith in the passed down beliefs of others of things they knew little about. In other words, though interesting, the aftelife, perhaps may be distracting to the present. Now, having said that, I am of the persuasion that there is only Life eternal and therefore how could there really be anything after? It is always Now. Reincarnation is an interesting topic and in my view supported in part by both Jewish history and the NT but without personal subjective experience, it is just hearsay. Just a view to consider, Joseph

The current E-bulletin for September 2009 containing articles of interest to Progressives and others can be found here Joseph

Jake, I missed your presence. Yes, it is a most difficult time for most and at the same time a most natural event. It seems good to me that you were able to be with him. I also lost both my Mom and Step-Dad over the past 2 years. My Mom with Alzheimer's and Leukemia was a long time of both sorrow and growth for all in the family. My Step-Dad died more suddenly in my arms and I was also present at the moment of my mothers last breath. The experience can be very transformative for those left behind and I am looking forward to hearing your experiences through this trying time. Love in Christ, Joseph

Hi Bill, It seems appropriate in this area as long as we are just expressing our view. I would ditto all your life affirming points. Mathew Chapter 7 found an approach for me. Some of the teachings you have listed as don't help such as "hate your father and mother" to me, is just a poor translation and is found only in Luke 14:26, (only 1 of 4 gospels) but seems not worth disputing because an argument on whether the Greek word was used to mean prefer less than rather than hate may be obvious to me from study but not to others. Most of the others you mentioned can be taken in a different context and a couple of the others you mention have not been revealed to me and could be in error. Personally, if they speak to me that is fine and if not, I am not offended and just let them pass. I don't see that for myself as cherry picking just because they speak or don't speak to me (I have no control over this) because some I have read and let pass and then 10 years later received the understanding. Kind of like judging nothing before its time. Are there errors? I believe so but it really doesn't matter to me because the teachings that did speak were only used as an approach that for me were successful for a more direct connection. Just my take on your questions on Point 1 Joseph

Hi Adi, Any short articles you write that you feel would be of interest to progressives could be pasted under the General Resources section as long as you have copyright authority. Anything really long that may be of interest and related to the TCPC community can have a short description and a link placed in the Link section. Books that are progressive in nature that can be read on line can be linked there with a short description also or submitted for interest in reviewing and commenting in the Book Discussion area much as you see in that section now. Hope that answers your question, if not feel free to PM me . JosephM ( as TCPC Moderator/Admin)

Testing for database errors Joseph

Heading to WPB Florida in the morning for a couple weeks R&R along with some personal business. Will still be online and available through PM's and use of a laptop computer. Joseph

Bright and sunny day in Kentucky with cool temperature of 63 to warm up to the low 70's. Very cool for this time of year. Spending the day 'piddling' around the house, relaxing, some reading and checking in on board a few times for the day. Took a motorcycle ride with the wife and another couple for a cod fish dinner to Cracker Barrel yesterday evening. Weather was refreshing and the fish was outstanding. Hoping your day is filled with love. Joseph

I will agree with you Dutch, And when he shall appear, you shall be like him. Wife fixing a pork loin smothered in dill weed/seed and Rosemary with potatoes. Waiting on kids and grandchildren to share such a meal and perhaps my favorite pie... Lemon supreme. Officially of retirement age today. If your under 62 keep those SS wages coming in... Have a great day, Joesph

What a coincidence, Tomorrow, I'll be 62. Seems just like yesterday I was a toddler. Life is good even if I don't make it to tomorrow. Today I did the grass and edging, some misc around the home and took my wife of 4o years out with some friends to dinner at Fridays. Next week I'll have to do better as it will be 41 years. I think I'll keep her. Joseph

Don't have a post for today? Check in and leave your thought for the day or let others know what you are doing. A great suggestion by Dutch. Joseph