luthitarian

My, My! Do I detect a little impatience here? Sounds like you two are ol' pals! Cool!

And may you be blessed also. Welcome aboard. Your kids sound intriguing! I'll bet they are a delight and a challenge. I have three grown kids, and I'm inclined to joke that I must be a fairly successful parent: I allowed all three of them to live long enough to reach adulthood, and we're all still on speaking terms.

If only the school year itself could be like that! Wouldn't it be something if students and teachers could both bound out of bed in the morning, eager to see what questions, surprises, and delights await in the classroom?

Hmmm...If you have either of them, I would be interested in reading them. I'm curious.

Duh! I shoulda guessed!

How delightful to just be able to teach! I taught for 24 years before heading for seminary, and I have to admit I don't miss all the paperwork and administrative crap. I think I left just in time to avoid dealing with the growing pressure to teach to the tests by which students, schools, and everything else--even the cafeteria food--seemed to be evaluated. Some of us saw this coming, and nobody listened--especially not politicians who thought they were scoring points with their constituents by stressing 'accountability' in education through state-wide testing at various levels. I envy you just now! Do you have the freedom to create your own lessons and curriculum?

The second coming is a theological doctrine that states Christ will return as soon as he realizes he forgot the keys to the kingdom.

Cool! The head of Interfaith Alliance? Right on! (What's AAR? My ignorance is showing!)

Closest thing I can think of to a Progressive televangelist is Al Franken! In his last book (the tiltle escapes me just now), there was a powerful piece of satire on the "SupplySide Jesus" that would have had Jesus and the OT prophets cheering him on, pounding the table and each other, with tears in their eyes from laughter! Jim Wallis would be a good one for a regular program along the lines of a progressive 700 Club. It could have a panel of co-hosts: Rev. Barry Lynn of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Rabbi Michael Lerner of Tikkun magazine and the book, The Left Hand of God, with Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, and Bishop Spong as frequent guests. A great choice for televangelist to worship with and to hear preach would have been William Sloane Coffin. Too bad.

Hot damn! An ELCA Lutheran?! I was an ELCA pastor before becoming a heretic Now I'm Unitarian Universalist (hence 'Luthitarian' Luth eran = Un itarian. Luther's messages of unconditional grace and acceptance and his clear panentheistic mysticism ('God can even be found in the contents of the belly of a louse') are still central to my personal theology.

Yeah! You and Jake and Elwood!

Flow, I looked at your profile and I see that you are also a fan of the blues. D'ja know that Charlie Musselwhite has a new cd out? Haven't heard it yet, but it ought ot be good stuff. Love that harmonica!

Learn from our mistakes?! Are you familiar with the Darwin Awards? I work in the medical field as a hospital chaplain in a trauma hospital. It's pretty much accepted as gospel in the emergency room that stupidity = job security.

Hey! Two obvious (and classic!) choices I hadn't thought about to round this out to an even David Letterman Top Ten: 9) It was God's will. 10) It was a warning/message/punishment from God.

Hi, Greg! As far as books, there are so many to recommend! Each of us on here probably have our favorites and favorite authors. Let me start by suggesting anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong, Jr., retired Episcopal bishop whose books have been helpful in defining liberal or progressive Christianity--especially Why Christianity Must Change or Die, A New Christianity for a New a New World, and Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism. Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, Bart Ehrman, and Robert Funk--all New Testament scholars with a decidedly progressive bent--have written good, clear and informative books for the general public, and not just for New Testament scholars and pastors. Yet they do not talk down to the lay person, nor do they water down their stuff either. Paul Tillich mid 20th century Lutheran theologian whose books have influenced people like Spong and others: The Dynamics of Faith and The Courage to Be as well as his collections of sermons: The Shaking of the Foundations, The New Being, and The Eternal Now. Most of his stuff is pretty heady and even seminary students will complain that he is a hard read. Yet, if I hadn't discovered him as an undergraduate about forty years ago, I might not have had any desire to remain a Christian or have found a meaningful way of expressing my faith that spoke to me more than the old, tradi tional"God language" did. Those are probably enough to keep you out of trouble for a while! As for churches, you'll find a considerable variety within each of those denominations you mentioned. Some may be a tad on the conservative side, others may be fairly liberal, and you will find some of each that tend to be on either extreme of the Religious Right or the Left. As the ancient knight told Indiana Jones: "Choose wisely". Also, if you might find more liturgical (bells and smells) churches to your liking, churches in the Evangelical Church in America or the Epsicopal Church might appeal to you as well. Many of them on the Divine Doppler are sort of left-shifted as well. Happy hunting!

Weirdest thing happened yesterday! It simply defies reason! I went to print something off, but my printer just shut down with a message to check paper & ink cartridges. I could see the paper right there, and as for the printer, I had just put a new color cartridge in about three days ago, and the black one was still pretty new, so I just tried again. Same results. So, I figured, 'what the heck!' Maybe somehow one of the cartridges popped loose or something. When I opened the printer, I nearly choked! There before me were two gaps where two cartridges should have been! I even went so far as to get a flashlight and look inside. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nothing! I had absolutely no idea where those cartridges had gotten to! So what are the options? 1) My printer has suddenly developed an appetite for cartridges. 2) I removed them myself for no reason at all, and then completely forgot about it. 3) My wife, who is even more computer illiterate than I am and who doesn't want to know anything about computers and printers was possessed by the tech fairy, instantly and supernaturally gained the know-how to remove the cartridges, did so, and likewise forgot all about it. 4) We had a visitor whom we immediately forgot had visited, and--while ignoring everything else in the house, swiped the printer cartridges. 5) We were visited by the printer gremlins who sneak in during the night and steal computer and printer parts. 6) I've become a sleep walker and did it myself while fast asleep (and most likely made tea, had a snack, worked a crossword puzzle, and went back to bed after having lost track of the cartridges myself). 6) The dog did it. 7) My printer cartridges have become a matter of national security and either the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, or Homeland Security now has them (probably buried deep in Dick Cheney's desk). 8) Due to some obscure principle of quantum physics, the cartridges have been transported to the far end of the universe (or maybe to the planet of wayward socks). It is so weird!! I have asked myself a number of times since the discovery of the errant cartridges, "Where the heck are my freakin' cartridges!?!?! How utterly bizarre!!

Good questions. My own view is that none of the gospels were written by an eyewitness, but that each was written for a specific group of believers in a certain place. That is, "Matthew" was written in Antioch for the group there, etc. It seems that each group, although tied together by basic beliefs (Resurrection, etc) stil had its own local traditions, and that these traditions were handed down (as Luke says) from those who were eyewitnesses. And in transmission, there was inevitably some change in details. In Mark, for example, there is only a young man (GR: "neanikos," meaning teenager) in the tomb. In Luke and Matt, this becomes angels. But John has a story which seems unique, with Mary Magdalene playing a major role. There are those, in fact, who claim that "the beloved disciple" was Mary M. It seems that Matt & Luke didn't know of each other's work (unless possibly Luke knew of Matt). So for a time, each Christian community would have only one gospel to work with. Also, there were more than four. Luke says that there were "many" accounts. Among these for Luke would be Mark and maybe the hypothetical "Q." But what others he was referring to we can't be sure. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yup! I would go further, though, and point out that not only do we see differences such as you point out, but each author--none of whom were actually the disciple named, such as Matthew Mark, and John--wrote for a different audience with different concerns, and at different times. Matthew and Mark were writing for a distinctly Jewish audience, whereas Luke was writing more for the Gentile Christians and also wrote the book of Acts, which picks up where his Gospel pretty much leaves off. John's audience was facing some real pressure from the Jewish community in the years following the destruction of the Temple and persecution by the Romans that leads to some passages that have been read as definitely anti-Semitic and the Jews are depicted as the ones who sought Christ's death while the Romans were basically passive performers in the drama, doing the bidding of the Jews. You don't see that at all in Mark, the oldest Gospel account. Also, Q, a sayings Gospel, is pretty much accepted as more than simply hypothetical. It is possible to even reconstruct Q by looking at Matthew and Luke, subtracting what they obviously borrowed from Mark, and setting aside the common elements that are left. Those common elements are basically the reconstructed Q.

The picture of Jesus we have from Crossan, Borg, and others was that of a very wise man whose relationship to his Abba and his vision of the Kingdom set him apart from others, but that he was nonetheless a peasant, and very likely illiterate. The Buddha never left written texts either. As with Jesus, it fell to his disciples within the next generation to begin to record his message. As is the case, so often, a teacher teaches by the spoken word for an immediate audience. Written texts are unnecessary, and only become important as those disciples, wanting to pass on the wisdom of the teacher, seek to codify that wisdom. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Socrates apparently never wrote anything either. It was left to Plato to write it all down. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah! Forgot all about Socrates! Just adds further affirmation that teaching is primarily an oral acitvity, and it's left to others to write down the teachings. Paul, on the other hand, did a lot of teaching in print, but he was only secondarily a teacher. His first role was as mission developer who had to do a lot of backtracking and putting out fires in congregations he had begun. This is where he brought in the teaching he did--as context for the issues he was dealing with by correspondence with distant and far-flung churches.

It hasn't happened yet. B'net is still the same ol' stuff to me. By the way, as I have gotten more accustomed to finding my way around this site, I would have to agree that it is finally more user friendly. I like having the features you pointed out here! They're quite handy for a computer illiterate such as myself. I consider myself basically a roadkill on the information superhighway! There is so much about computers and the internet I don't know and don't understand. I don't even know enough usually to form an intelligent question to ask for what I need to know. Saying things like: "I've go this thingamajiggy that's blocking my whatchamacallit, and it's got everything damn near ferhooldled" ain't much help.

Toss in anything by Karen Armstrong. An ex-nun, she has written The Battle for God; A History of God: The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism,Christianity, and Islam; Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths; In the Beginning: A New Interpretation of Genesis; and Buddha a book in the Penguin Lives (that's with a long 'i' by the way!) series of biographies.. Philip Novak has written sort of a companion to Hustons Smith's The World's Religions--and Smith writes the foreword forthis book--which is a collection of sacred writings. Title: The World's Wisdom: Sacred Texts from the World's Religions.

The picture of Jesus we have from Crossan, Borg, and others was that of a very wise man whose relationship to his Abba and his vision of the Kingdom set him apart from others, but that he was nonetheless a peasant, and very likely illiterate. The Buddha never left written texts either. As with Jesus, it fell to his disciples within the next generation to begin to record his message. As is the case, so often, a teacher teaches by the spoken word for an immediate audience. Written texts are unnecessary, and only become important as those disciples, wanting to pass on the wisdom of the teacher, seek to codify that wisdom.

I understand your point, and that's why I struggle with this preoccupation with stuff. But how can you limit Abundance? Stuff happens...why resist it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I'm ambivalent about capitalism. It's the goose that lays the golden eggs, and I live in middle-class comfort. And yet, there's all that stuff Jesus said....... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah! I hear what you're saying. My issue is with the ones who live in excess of any possible need--sucha as the corporate heads who make hundreds of times what their average employees earn and who live in outrageous luxury. I can't think of one way to morally justify the imbalance and inequity there. There is no excuse for such conspicuous consumption. The "if you've got it, flaunt it" mentality bites. I have seen driving about my end of town a guy in a Jaguar with the personalized license plates, "FATCAT". It was hard for me not to feel contempt for this guy, and I didn't even know him at all! Envy? I don't think so. I tend to have fairly simple tastes and modest needs. I'm quite happy to have a recent model used Toyota Camry (actually, a Chevy Geo--same thing). I have my own home, though, admittedly, it could use some work that I can't afford, but we're compfotable in it, and the work is basically some remodeling that--if it doesn't get done any time soon''so what?!" My entertainment budget consists of the occasional overdue fines. And we're able to eat out now and then at a favorite Indian restaurant. I just have a real problem with the shameful and steadily increasing gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm pretty much in the same boat. We've lived in the same house, a small split, for the past 26 years. Our only car is 8 years old. Call it lack of ambition, but I don't wan't much more. I agree about the disparities in pay. Some of these guys at the top demand pay cuts from the workers, while creating golden parachutes for themselves. (Certainly not all CEOs are that way) One reason I like Whole Foods is that the head guy makes only 14 times what the newest hire makes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I've heard that about Whole Foods, and I like that and other somewhat 'subversive' things about the store. Sorta like Ben and Jerry's does groceries! We have one that opened up in my city recently, bit it's clear on the other side of town. Takes a good half hour to get there through often heavy traffic. We go, but not as frequently as I would if it were more convenient. By the way, I would harldy call being content with 'enough' as a lack of ambition. Live simply that others may simply live.

Yes! That's what it's all about. I used to try to 'pray unceasingly' without setting aside special time for prayer as well, but I couldn't make it work. For me, it has to grow out of my special prayer time. I believe Jesus' model for retreat and return is necessary. What bothers me even more than folks putting the focus on the material is folks who use it as a way to judge another's faith. He's rich, he must have strong faith, he's poor he must have poor faith. The truth is, there are other ways of being rich and other ways of being poor. I think we are seeing eye-to-eye here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm afraid we have the Book of Proverbs, especially, to blame for the view that material benefits are signs of God's blessing, and poverty and hardship, the opposite. You can imagine what kind of judgmentalism that invites! It's just the kind of attitude, too, that Jesus set about to overturn when he took his message first to poor, the sick, and the outcast.. Yet, several centuries later wealth-as-blessing would almost be a central teaching of Calvinism. The model of retreat and return, or Sabbath time, whenever it becomes available or whenever it is needed is important. Admittedely, I don't do enough of it, but I appreciate the time when I do. It's important for self care and for staying grounded in what ultimately matters.

I understand your point, and that's why I struggle with this preoccupation with stuff. But how can you limit Abundance? Stuff happens...why resist it? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, I'm ambivalent about capitalism. It's the goose that lays the golden eggs, and I live in middle-class comfort. And yet, there's all that stuff Jesus said....... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah! I hear what you're saying. My issue is with the ones who live in excess of any possible need--sucha as the corporate heads who make hundreds of times what their average employees earn and who live in outrageous luxury. I can't think of one way to morally justify the imbalance and inequity there. There is no excuse for such conspicuous consumption. The "if you've got it, flaunt it" mentality bites. I have seen driving about my end of town a guy in a Jaguar with the personalized license plates, "FATCAT". It was hard for me not to feel contempt for this guy, and I didn't even know him at all! Envy? I don't think so. I tend to have fairly simple tastes and modest needs. I'm quite happy to have a recent model used Toyota Camry (actually, a Chevy Geo--same thing). I have my own home, though, admittedly, it could use some work that I can't afford, but we're compfotable in it, and the work is basically some remodeling that--if it doesn't get done any time soon''so what?!" My entertainment budget consists of the occasional overdue fines. And we're able to eat out now and then at a favorite Indian restaurant. I just have a real problem with the shameful and steadily increasing gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.