flowperson

The RU (486?) pill has been used in clinical practice in France , where it was invented, for at least ten years now without noticeable repercussions as far as I know. I recall a discussion on another thread here, regarding the erosion of scientific thought. One of the articles cited there addressed the FDA's handling of this issue, and how upset scientitsts are that a Government agency is clearly manipulating and altering its approval process for this pill to soothe the egos of fundamentalist conservatives. Another thing to consider here is that in a global economy that has people traveling to India and Thailand to obtain heart bypasses, plastic surgery, and certain other complex procedures at about 25% of the cost of similar procedures performed in American facilities, it doesn't seem to make sense that it would be overturned if one could get on a plane and get it done elsewhere for a reasonable price in premium facilities and by qualified professionals. How much trouble would it be to go to Canada, Mexico, or Central America to get it done. Not much. Much of the year it costs less to fly to Europe that coast-to-coast in the USA. Lastly, I believe the majority of Americans are beginning to realize that the screaming of the fundies that they protect and revere life is fairly hypocritical when it is considered that they usually whole-heartedly support vicious and bloody military ventures on the part of their government. I know that this is a significant over-generalization on my part, and I know that there are plenty of liberals and progressives who probably wouldn't opt for the termination of a pregnancy. But the fact remains that we live in a constitutional democracy in which people are encouraged to choose and live with the consequences of their choices. If you remove too many choices in which Americans must exercise their moral independence, you effectively remove their freedoms. And in America, that's the one thing that we will not tolerate for very long. However the current administration has done a pretty good job of doing just that post 9/11 without too many people complaining very much. I guess it all boils down to how scared, humiliated, and apathetic the American public can be made to feel before they rear up on their hind legs and insist upon the rights that have been historically guaranteed to them over the past 230 years. I haven't said much about this subject before because emotionally, it hits a little too close to home for me, so I hope that not much of what I've said will unduly upset many of you. flow....

Hmmmmm...let's see. We'll need MORE music. I suggest old school R&B. I never got into the Punk, Metal, Grunge, etc. thing. But I' ve got some good tapes, Ray Charles, James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, etc. Guess I'm just meant to be a blues brother ! A party sounds like a great idea. It's been a long time since I've been to any. OK, next we all chant the McDonald's mantra ... LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION !!! flow....

Lib BRAVISSIMO!!!! flow....

Kendra, GOLFISH RULE!! Love your picture, and I am happy to welcome you to our little discussion work in progress. I just posted an op-ed piece on the power of meditation written by his holiness, the Dalai Lama. They even tolerate me here, so I'm sure your opinions will be a contributing addition to our collective wisdom and growth. Till next time... flow....

There is an op-ed piece in The New York Times today concerning the subject of this thread. I found it to be interesting that the Dalai Lama was tutored by eminent scientists in his youth, almost as if he was being consciously prepared in his past for this debate. Sure beats Pat Robertson's scare tactics, huh? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/12/opinion/12dalai.html flow....

These observations are precisely why issues of scale are so important in discerning and understanding the universe as possibly an "intelligent project" of G-d. The example I like to use is the scale of a hydrogen atom. Think of a bowling ball perched atop the Sears Tower as the nucleus of the atom. The atom's electron would be a BB whizzing around it at a distence of 19 miles. From this it should be evident that the material realities around us are mostly filled with space and only appear to be solid. Lots of nooks and cranies for spiritual beings to sneak around in and and create new stuff. Then there are little hints and clues in the ancient tales such as the belief among the early Hebrews in "Tzim-Tzum". This means that G-d creates from the nothingness and then leaves the stage before his/her creation is allowed to begin its cycles of existence. Anyone who does creative work will tell you that the process is alot like giving birth. It comes forth from the light and darkness of one's soul, and after it is in the outside world as a creation in its own right, it may still be edited, touched-up, revised to an extent; but, a spiritual content exists in it from that time on to inspire those who partake of its meanings to also partake in a portion of the spiritual substance of its creator. Monster huh? GRRRRR!!! flow....

I have come to really appreciate the eastern approach to analyzing the things of this life. Dharma has always been a favorite concept of mine. It's meaning is really quite simple and apropos' to the clip you posted in the exchange between wise person #1 and wise person #2. When you protect order it protects. When you destroy order it destroys. This theme is universally prevalent in the new sciences concerning complex systems, and should be a touchstone for all of us in our daily lives. However, change from the old to the new is possible and inevitable, but it must be transparent, gradual, and slowly done in small steps in order to harmonize with the universal principle of dharma. flow....

I knew someone would put this on when I saw it. Good work autumn! Let's just hope and pray that a twister or flood or something doesn't hit Dover, or we all may well be in the soup with the fundies dancing around us in a circle in the firelight. By the way Fred, the Pope just declared in an audience with the Hierarchy of the Austrian church looking on that, " ...the universe is an intelligent project...". Well, I can't really disagree with that since there are, extending to as a large scale and as small a scale as we can see, lots and lots of long-term, self-organizing, ordered systems in it. But chaos is also a predominant feature, unless you consider and extend Joseph Schumpeter's view of chaos in systems of capitalism to be "creative destruction". Schumpeter was, I believe, a Nobel laureate in Econonmics from the U. of Chicago in the 40's or 50's. flow....

If the "L Word" (love) is indeed the underlying, Jungian, archetypal, unifying theme of the Gnostic sects, then why were they doomed to destruction and extinction in the 2nd and 3rd centuries? Why was orthodoxy so dogged and thorough in its pursuit and abolishment of this set of beliefs? Why is love such a threatening emotion and organizational concept to certain individuals? Why are we all so confused so often these days in sexual relations even when love is the reason-d-etre? Is the concept of "agape" love being extinguished by today's beliefs and replaced with sexual pleasures that turn into business arrangements? If G-d is indeed love and we, his/her creations, are reflective in nature of that experience, why do we treat each other so cautiously, gingerly, and fearfully? Could it be because of serpents? What are the serpents? We activate the primitive parts of our brains (the parts that extend back in our animal lineage to the serpent times) when sexual drives take us over. They exist mythologically as being representative of ancient revered wisdom on the Asian continent. They existed as the supreme being in past central American cultures as the feathered, rainbow serpent. I am asking so many questions and that is essentially a disordering activity, but I just thought it was appropriate to indulge myself in some metaphysical mythologizing! flow....

mt I would have liked being in your congregation! flow....

ATTENTION! ATTENTION! BIG WORD ALERT !!!! But I really,really like it. "Metaphysics Mythologizied" is the best thing to come along in the verbal zoo for quite some time. I plan to use it often, GRRRRRRR! flow....

In olden days, when Celtic priests (who were also required to be poetic storytellers) wished to tell the ancient stories of the people to them, four of them would bind themselves to a large tree, and were faced to the four principal directions, north, east, south, and west. They would then recite the stories and poetic sagas of the history of the people, sometimes for days on end, until the issues at hand were understood and reconciled to nature and to each other. This might be viewed as an intermediate step from the shaman- oriented form of spiritual communication, into the more abstract forms of priesthood that were initiated and adopted by rulers and their communities in the metal ages. Contrary to contemporary belief, the Celts originated in Germany and Central Europe at about the same time that agriculture became the norm rather than hunting and gathering. Many think that they were native to the British isles, but the Celts' belief system migrated there over the millenia. Since these islands were effectively insulated by water from the waves of barbarian conquerers during the bronze and iron ages, they tended to preserve the poetic traditions in the more remote reaches of the isles such as Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. Yes, poetry and song are closer to our origins as humans, and closer to the heartstrings of our souls. Is there any surprise in that? It is also interesting to note that musical structure is evident in the spatial and sequential organization of biological entities such as proteins, amino acids, and DNA. Hmmmm, wonder if that means anything when certain music sends shivers up and down my back with sensual rhythms? Yet another global common thread that ties all humans, and likely other forms of life together at basic levels. flow....

I absolutely agree on the inside-out nature of spiritual reality. Once again it is relective of universal structure. The light is on the inside and seeks ways out into the darkness. Sometimes that's a destructive thing, sometimes creative. But it is what is. flow....

des, you are smart. Some of us just like using big words to try and convince ourselves that we are too! MOW, I believe that your observation regarding the multiplicity of evils is right on the money. If you will remember Jesus' sayings about when we will enter the kingdom, it's full of contrarian and positive-negative comparisons, such as not being able to tell male from female, top from bottom, last from first, etc. My take is that when we are observing the multiplication of such duplicities (big word alert !!!) we are observing a degree of the unraveling of an ordered natural reality, and the possible onset of chaotic episodes. However, this is not always a bad thing. Not too long ago a man named Cary Mullis, a really far-out hipster, was awarded the Nobel Prize for creating something called the PCR process. It allows for and enables the unlimited copying and replication of genetic material, natural or engineered. This discovery has been used extensively for a decade now to improve our lives in countless ways. Fred, I have maintained for some time now that we are all a reflection of the universe around us. It is hard-wired into what we are, 95% darkness, and 5% light. And you know what evil lurks in the hearts of men/women. If you don't Lamont Cranston does (aka The Shadow). Oh, and the brain is composed of 90-95% glial cells and 5-10% electrical signal transmitting neuronal cells. The electrically conducting cells are uniformly immersed in the glial medium. As with most things such happenings are always a double-edged sword. Deep understandings of such processes have always had the potential to cause limitless destruction or unlimited good. Of such things myths are composed and passed on. flow....

David: I agree with Fred. The very act of composing your six point statement concerning G-d and his/her actions in our known universe(s) speaks volumes about your faith. It's just that so much is not yet known about just WHAT is being created around and in us, and more importantly what our physical environment really looks like. Or to put it another way, what do the hidden things really mean to our existence? I believe that most TCPCr's are hesitant to specifically comment upon your proposals because to do so would be a self-limiting act by the commenters. I believe that the TCPC is a totally open-ended and no holds barred forum about what we may discuss concerning G-d and the universe(s); and, when specific things are written to define the inherently infinite nature of G-d and his/her universe(s) many are fulmmoxed about just what to say. Remember that TCPC is mostly about questions and not answers. But it is good that you are able to find answers that satisfy your views. That's really what this is all about. If some sort of consensus is reached in the future on whatever, so much the better. I ran across this article today and believe that it better explains just what I am getting at. And by the way, welcome to our verbal zoo! http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/science/08essay.html flow....

Ah yes, finding the in-between spot where it is safe and secure, because we are taught to believe that the in-between spot pleases the most people most of the time. It's why politics flourishes and why Bill Clintron was born. All kidding aside, well, maybe not all. On another thread I observed that Jesus referred to himself consistently and most often as "the son of man", well maybe that was in the third person sort of thing like "Bob Dole". We'll never really know because we weren't there and network anchors cannot interview the authors of the Gospels. But just think deeply about the term and what it seems to imply. In Genesis when the narrator speaks of the dim beginnings of human time upon the earth we are taught that there were angels who were "sons of G-d" and there were also "daughters of men". We are informed that the daughters of men were comely and that the angels went in unto them (biblicalese for SEX) and that they brought forth children who were very violent and who destroyed themselves over time (well it is a myth, but I thought the producers and director of the film, City of Angels, did a wonderful job with the material). And then G-d created The Adam and his helpmate Eve. Some Gnostic believers held that the Apostle Thomas and Adam were one in the same separated by millenia. Adam was also supposedly buried in the cave at Machelpa along with the patriarchs Abraham and Issac (maybe). Also in Genesis are mentioned "the mighty men" who seemed capable of accomplishing anything that they wished in days of yore. So now you have four classes of earthly personas and one class of cosmic beings that are implied in the early days of earth. Let's review: the sons of g-d, the angels or the cosmic ones ( in the Hebrew, "the Elohim") who were both reputedly good and bad; the daughters of men ( implied to have come about through the offices of the mighty men) ; the offspring who destroy themselves because they're violent.; The mighty men, who seem to lurk in the background of all this; and Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, and Seth who composed the beginning of the human race, the first family (of course Cain destroyed Abel with the jawbone of an ass, and we hear nothing more of Seth, but by deduction, we all came from Adam and Eve through Cain and Seth). Whew!!!! By the way, Sir John Boorman did an excellent film in the 70's about this myth called, Zardoz. I would highly recommend it to you since it featured Sean Connery in his James Bond days, and Charlotte Rampling (really hot !!}, as a scientist lady who falls for Sean, who plays Adam. Really cool stuff!! Then lots of millenia and centuries later along comes this guy who calls himself "son of man". He had such a profound impact upon the existing milieu of humanity that a completely new set of stories were passed down about him, and a new set of beliefs about self-sacrifice and doing only good works was carried forward until today to inspire our collective behavior patterns in the world. Some of us even assumed him to be son of G-d, but he likely didn't believe that of himself. As I said in the other thread it is evident to me that G-d is the most talented and capable genetic engineer in the universe. He/she also posseses the fastest and most effiiciently effective quantum computer in the universe. (A quantum computer, when they are perfected, will make movie special effects seem like child's play in their ability to create and change realities before our eyes). By the way, about fifteen years ago it was predicted at a convention of mechanical engineering professionals that in 25 years fresh, hot pizza would be delivered directly to our homes through the use of quantum devices ( Beam me down Guido! Only ten more years to wait!). And since G-d has the best quantum computer he/she also has the best and only universal time machine. He/she can go anywhere in time and space in spirit and change realities and create beginnings to his/her heart's content. The Greeks believed that G-d created ex-nihilo, or out of nothingness, whereas earthly gods (ie mighty men) were demiurges, who, because they had to dwell in the earth to work their wonders were corrupted in their natures and were not pure spirit like G-d. This implies that their creations were corrupted/corruptible. Really confusing stuff but it really makes for most excellent entertainment. Sorry for all this everyone, but I just had to get it all out of my system. I feel better now, I think. flow....

My son, who is now in his 30's fell out of a tree in our front yard when he was five. He started having seizures at the age of eight when he underwent emotional stress as a result of a nasty divorce. He was diagnosed with seizure disorder likely due to both the fall, and the stress. And as you both know seizures are really the brain's way of adjusting its electrical flows because of some sort of out -of-the-ordinary physical and/or organic disturbances. Kind of like electrical short-circuits or transformers blowing out. It's also one of my pet beliefs that being constantly immersed in electromagnetic fields from before birth to death these days may also have something to do with our head and mood disorders. There's got to be some reason for the Amish to believe what they believe. But that all is another squirmingly full can of worms. Besides it all makes lots of money for pharmaceutical companies and I'm a stockholder. But, I digress. You're both right, it comes out of nowhere and it is scary. Luckily a neighbor was a pediatrician and put him on dilantin immediately. He has since grown out of the seizure episodes, no longer medicates for it, and is quite normal. This superstition thing and fear of the unknown could be the root of all evil, if one ignores money, but who can? This goes back to the beginnings of humanity. Shamans would commune with the spirit world in ancient times to help heal community members. And yes, as much as we discover about what we are and who we've been, the more we seem to not know much about our connections with/to each other and our environments and how that all may conspire to baffle and scare the bejesus out of us from time to time. Yes FDR, we have nothing to fear but fear itself. I believe that the following article might be apropo' to the discussion at hand. Enjoy!! The Sexual Evolution of Disease By DAVID P. BARASH First published: Friday, November 4, 2005 In Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot," two tramps wait to see if Godot will arrive. Today, in evolution's worldwide theater of the worrisome and real, we're all waiting to see if the bird flu virus will get around to attacking us big time. Godot never showed up; H5N1 just might. On the other hand, if the dreaded bird flu pandemic doesn't appear, it may be due to luck, or the quarantine and slaughter of infected animals, or other public health measures, or sex. There appears to be a curious connection between sex and disease, one that evolutionary biologists have only recently come to appreciate. Biologists have long scratched their collective heads about sex, starting with this conundrum: Sex isn't necessary. Lots of living things reproduce by "parthenogenesis" (the development of unfertilized eggs) or by sending out shoots or buds. Not only does asexual reproduction avoid the hassles of sex, it also gets around a huge genetic drawback: Genes within a sexually reproducing creature enjoy only a 50 percent chance that they will be transmitted to any offspring, whereas asexual reproduction guarantees each gene has a 100 percent certainty of being projected into the future. And projecting genes into the future is what evolution is all about. This 50 percent cost imposed by sexual reproduction had long troubled evolutionary scientists until British biologist William D. Hamilton came up with the idea that sexual reproduction might be a tactic in an evolutionary arms race between hosts and their diseases. First, let's face the fact that there are many more of them (pathogens and parasites) than us (free-living organisms). Pathogens and parasites seek to live at our expense; we seek to thwart them. If we stay genetically the same from one generation to the next, then we are easy targets for "them." Enter sex. By mixing and matching our genes, sexually reproducing creatures bob and weave, creating new genetic combinations, confounding our pathogens and parasites by creating moving targets instead of sitting ducks. Because of their generally short life spans, pathogens can evolve rapidly compared with ourselves; via the diversity-creating mechanism of sex, we level the evolutionary playing field. At least some bacteria, worms and viruses are unable to draw a bead on our descendants. Maybe -- unlike Godot -- a bird flu plague will arrive after all. And if we succeed in dodging the bullet, we might want to offer thanks -- not only to veterinarians, virologists and public health workers -- but also to sex. David P. Barash teaches at the University of Washington. flow....

Fred Congratulations to us!! Now let's hope that others join in. You da MAN!!!!! Got to go to bed now. Wish I could legally do drugs. flow....

Gnosticism is by far a richer tapestry, and so much more diverse in its applicability than the approach of orthodoxy. You could say that it supports an underlying unified vision regarding Jesus and his mystical mission among us. This would be the Jungian aspect to the mysteries. A potentially subversive and disordering vision and set of beliefs concerning the core of Christianity. However, there are those individuals in all societies that MUST have order and stability all around them in order to justify their own existence. One might call this the Freudian approach. The restriction of the knowledge of the mysteries is the predominant philosophical approach of orthodoxy. This orthodox approach to Christianity was actively created and promoted over the centuries to balance the mystical richness of the Jungian visions of unity that are suggested by many of the Gnostic texts. Without the balancing influences of orthodoxy, anarchy would always have been a much greater danger in Christian societies over the past 2,000 years. After all, Jesus reputedly said that he had thrown fire upon the earth. What could be more threatening to those who insist upon order? Of course the greatest danger here is that very strict orthodoxy can, and has, morphed into dictatorial and facist structures that have been brutally used to suppress and subjugate mystical visions and interpretations of Jesus' work among us. One might even say that such repression is alive and well in supposedly "free" nations today. What is the best way? Of course the truth is the best way! What is the truth? The truth is ALWAYS the most believable story. What is the best story? That's being decided "for" us by "free market policies" these days, and not "by" us as it should be; but then, it's my belief that the success of The DaVinci Code speaks huge volumes about the "longing for truth" out there among a huge and silenced majority. flow....

With respect to James' unfortunate remarks regarding the realities and history of the Isreali-Palestinian conflict and Mystictrek's reply, I would suggest that anyone really interested in the intricacies of the history and dynamics of this conflict obtain a copy of a book entitled, The Haj, by Leon Uris. It is a work of fiction but is based upon historical fact. There's bad guys and good guys in every conflict scenario, each of them eager to point out how WRONG the other guy is in his belief. But a good story with believable characters makes the historical futility of it all alot clearer to us somehow. Uh, Germany also played a large part in much of the history of all this early in the 20th century . What a surprise!! flow....

Gee Fred, now you've got me confused! I agree though that Dave is in the groove with the humanistic and process approach to all this. All I was stressing was that some answers become self-evident among faithful believers with enough waiting and keen observation. That's alot like the scientific process overall. We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us and try to peer into the distance to see what we may see. Making something meaningful out of what we may see is another can of worms altogether. flow....

I would have to agree with Fred. Except for the time factor, G-d's universe is everything that happens, all at once, and together; and, we are all a reflection of all that. I believe that some things seem to be magical in their appearance and, perhaps, disappearance simply because we are imperfect and cannot see all that there is to see. But science and technology have been helping us with that and extending our collective reach of understanding for the last 400 years or so. You also write well when you're on drugs!!! flow....

I do not believe that in some ways things are so different from the way that they were in the ancient times of the desert. Progress for all of us is made by a sort of conversation between G-d and his/her people. Signs and wonders are revealed. Their meanings are interpreted by the people. The people reach a critical mass in their collective beliefs. Progress is painfully made in the realities of the people through their accurate or inaccurate interpretations of the signs and wonders, and their subsequent collective actions upon these interpretations. This has little to do with the secular affairs of men, but has mostly to do with their security within the arms of nature. Since the direction of humanity has been to actively alienate itself from nature for about 150 years now, it is much more difficult these days to interpret what is being revealed to us and to act collectively in positive ways upon it to make progress into the future within nature. As I said above, I believe that hope AND patience are the watch words among believers these days, and not the proposing of answers. This may seem more of a pagan approach to reality than most Christians are willing to acknowledge openly. However, most scholarly work points to the fact that all organized religions arose in the dim past through organized approaches to the observations and interpretations of nature by societies across the world. If these concepts are confusing to you I am sorry, but that's the way I see it all. flow....

Dave, Hope is a wonderful thing. It has made the future become possible for many of us. But patience is even more admirable. It allows one to hope for definitive answers to our questions in the future. I sense that most of us are concentrating our energies on hope these days and not on possible definitive answers. The Book of Job is considered by many to be the oldest knowledge in the Bible. It is based on the ancient folk wisdom and poetry of the desert tribes of the near east. In it G-d speaks to mortals out of the whirlwind regarding his/her eternal nature and power. Right now, unless I'm seriously mistaken, we're all watching G-d speak to us from the whirlwind. We just do not know enough as yet, especially about the universe, or possibly universes, to set aside hope and fully concentrate on possible answers. Wait and see? flow....

Of course you already knew that much of Augustine's approach to and opinions regarding sexual mores were shaped by his heavy and constant physical conversations with older women as a teen. Wonder which one changed his attitudes? An act of G-d do you think? flow....