flowperson

I believe that this all illustrates that "change" is the operative factor in all of this. While human beings are a part of nature, they, and we, have been operating for millenia in ways to cushion our individual and collective lives from suffering the spectrum of detrimental change that nature brings to us. All of our modern conveniences that turn into necessities overnight fall into this category. Shelter, power and information systems, highways and roads, educational facilities, medical and long term care capabilities, all of it and more are subject to destruction by nature and human-made events without engineering, planning, construction, and maintenance capabilities. But our ever increasing efforts to prevent or at least delay significant change in our lives creates a price for us to pay. I call it "the sky is falling syndrome". This stems from the known fact that complex systems, such as civilization has constructed around us, especially in urban areas, become increasingly vulnerable to significant collapse if natural and man-made disasters crop up. The gulf coast storms are an excellent example of this. And in light of the fact that certain experts are now saying that it may take ten years for full recovery to take place, one can see how significant just several hours of natural violence can be to a portion of our civilized structures, and just how much it affects the rest of the whole in significant ways. As I said elsewhere here after the storms, I believe that we're being sent messages, but our leaders tend to ignore them until after the bad stuff happens and they are forced to deal with it all. I believe that the example of the healed leper, and the moving of the net from one side of the boat to the other was Jesus' way of saying that human-made change can and does change reality in the future, but one must be prepared for a range of unexpected benefits and penalties due to such change. Since we have free will, individually and collectively, we can and do delay needed and significant change until we are perhaps forced into it due to urgent circumstances. Whereas it is very comfortable for us to continue our identities as comfortable and well-fed urban creatures, what happens if in the future our highly effecient systems to find and process seafood catches become too effecient and the seafood systems themselves start to collapse, as happened with the cod population in the Atlantic, and as is now happening with other species. We were given intellectual gifts to help us to effect change in our environments to help make our quality of life better, up to a point. But if we enjoy the benefits for too long and ignore needed curbs and modifications that help to insure sustainability, what kind of a situation is our use of change setting up for our childrens' futures? Just thinking out loud again. flow....

Makes sense. |t would be interesting to know, author or publisher? Of course my original response was somewhat facetious, hmmmm? flow....

What a corporate thing to do to change names like that. Very difficult to figure out who or what to sue these days. No wonder we're all so confused all of the time! Thanks for the clarification, Fred! flow....

Shrooms ! Sam Adams ! Turkey Loaf ! Tea, NOT ! Of such basic ingredients a Revolutionary war was once begun, waged, and won by the good guys, who were ably assisted by their French comrades! Liberty! Fraternity! Equality! Pomme Frites Forever! ( as long as there is also Heinz ketchup ) This is all making me hungry, thirsty, and exceedingly rebellious. I think I'll go to bed now. ( On second thought bangers, mash, and a pint of bitters isn't too bad either.) flow....

I didn't think that I still had the book, but I do. It's called , " The Religions of Man". I did some disposing of stuff and moving three years ago and didn't think that I still had it. But I'm a sentimental older fool, and held onto it because it has been so important to me. When I read it I somehow magically and, I suppose , mystically understood some basic truths about the wholeness of humanity. This is the "one" thing that evil does not want any of us to understand, and is at the very core of Jesus' messages to us. It was first published in 1958, and the Harper paperback version that I have was published in 1965 and has, believe it or not, a rainbow on the cover! Find it and read it yesterday! Additionally I would recommend, " The Phenomenon of Man " by Pierre Teilhard DeChardin". It was also written and published in the 1950's and caused quite a stir since Teilhard was a priest and Catholic missionary in China beginning in the late 1920's. His views were very unpopular with the conservative elements of the church and he was all but excommunicated for his opinions and work on the book. I believe that you will also find it to be a book that will change your traditional viewpoints and encourage you to "think different" about all of this stuff. Have fun! Oh, and there are no shortcuts for your journey. You and I and everyone else are unique and what I have found along my long strange trip cannot be like yours or theirs, but I can recommend some takeoff points for you. Remember that the mansion has many rooms. flow....

A long time ago I read Smith's opus, "The World's Religions " at least that's the title I remember. In it he describes the basic features of five great religions and relates them at their philosophical roots in some very important ways. I believe it was published in 1953, and I still point to this book as the beginning place on my "real" spiritual journey. flow....

The Uncola, Shasta cream soda and orange for me; and, since I'm an oldster, caffeine-free diet Cokes once in a while for variety. Fruit nectars are also great, especially peach and apricot. Kern's has got the nearest-to-natural flavors I think. And relax neandergirl, we don't burn Pepsians at the stake anymore. But we might find reason to send them to our vacation villas in Romania or Poland for some re-education and therapy from time to time.. flow....

Carl Sounds like you found a soul-mate! flow....

Thanks Bill! Or is it Ted? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Uhhh. are we talkin' "excellent adventure" or "bogus journey" here? Both of them were bodacious and gnarly fables about trippin" through space and time. Rock on and party on dudes and dudettes!!! flow....

It is my belief that the dichotomy between what is spiritual and what is religiosity has mostly to do with the "E" word, "emotion". We, as humans, are most moved to believe what moves us emotionally. Jesus asserted that belief was the most important aspect of His teachings. When belief is institutionalized and boxed into an authoritarian structure, the power of the message to move us emotionally to belief is naturally truncated by the institutional attributes and structures themselves. I believe that there is no escaping this conundrum. However, we all hungrily seek "personal" relationships with those people and things that move us emotionally. This seems to be universally true whether we are speaking of G-d, Jesus, our friends, our mates, our children, etc. This might also be termed "good chemistry". Or perhaps this should be termed to be the " longing syndrome " that seems to be at the root of all truly emotionally-based relationships. But it seems unlikely that many of us are able to bring that same emotional fervency to bear when it comes to forming long-term, belief-based connections to our churches, communities, alma maters, political parties, nations, etc. These connections usually end-up being associations based mainly upon logic-oriented choice systems and not emotional attachments. Since these entities are really administrative constructs formed in order to package our general and collective beliefs, they operate to dilute the emotional content of their foundational concepts through the interpersonal compromises that are necessary to keep such organizations intact and moving forward. My sole exception to note here would be memberships in musical organizations whose existence is tied to individual and collective rehearsal and performance. This is because music is an inherently emotional experience for most people. I can say that I have been both richly rewarded through personal spiritual relationships, but also badly emotionally crushed by them. But I have been disappointed to a greater degree by relationships with entities that purported to collectivize shared beliefs because of the deceit and political intrigue necessary for them to exist and continue. But then human existence has been that way for a long time, probably since the "apple" was eaten, and I do not think it will all change anytime soon. What we should view this dichotomy as is a spectrum of belief-based satisfaction. We may join ourselves with associations of believers through the exercise of our free will, and to the extent such associations fulfill an adequate degree of our emotional needs, we may choose to continue our participation. But we live in a universe of change and subsequent choice. So most of us are free to pursue our dreams and needs as necessity warrants. flow....

Dear Masterbaker Carl. My only question is, when you take the cake out of the oven and burn your arm in the process, do you feel it? BTW how is your furry friend? flow....

My casual, one-person survey of the passing scenes of life have convinced me that Canadians are happier people than Americans. Why is that? Health care or better beer? flow....

One point at a time. 1 Ask any reputable historian of science and he/she will tell you that when monks were sitting around in their cells in Europe copying and illustrating religious tracts during the dark ages, Arab sages were composing compendiums discussing number theory and sharing astronomical charts to try and fathom understandings of the universe they existed in. In fact the prototype university (in the western sense) was in Timbuktu in the middle of the Sahara desert in what is now Mali, and operated there to teach mathematical and scientific principles to the next generations beginning in about the tenth (thenth?) century. The Persians did a fair amount of this knowledge transfer also about this same time. The western correlates for this model were not started until a century or two later under the auspices of the church in France and Italy. Of course one could argue that the Greeks beat them both to the punch education-wise, but their teaching was on more of a tutorial basis than on a classroom concept with elders teaching younger people collectively. One could make a point that Pythagoras was the true pioneer of higher education in science and mathematics as he did his thing in about the sixth century b.c., but most concurrence is that while conservative elements were trying to bury science and mathematics across Europe in the dark ages, the Arabs were nurturing and preserving what had come down to them from the preceeding classic periods. Once this knowledge was introduced into Europe through the Islamic culture in Spain, it subsequently spread across the continent, and eventually triggered things like the renaissance and the enlightenment 2 I used these tragic moments and events in history only to illustrate what is one of the hallmarks of the halting progress of western intellectual development, not to focus any specific blame upon any entity for the specific actions and events. But the Catholic Church was the leading conservative element in those times; and , I believe that we have all heard apologies not too long ago for some of its actions in those days that are now regretted.. New concepts and ideas come into being; the conservative elements, fearing progress, do whatever is possible to slow down this progress or, better yet, kill it and bury it so that they can live comfortably in the past. If you need to refresh your memory about the specifics of this phenomenon, I suggest that you read a biography of Galileo. If I remember correctly it took the church about four centuries to realize its mistakes and apologise thru John Paul II. A truly great man, and one who realized that "better late then never" has real meaning to some who care. 3 I looked and looked both in my paperback American Heritage Dictionary ( my favorite!), and in my recently acquired ten inch thick Webster's, but I could not find the word "inculcuration" or its meaning. Is it some specialty ecclesiastical term that you had in mind? If you meant to use the word "inculcate" or "inculcation" I would argue that it connotes a treading down of structure in order to force the meaning of a concept upon those to be taught, through intense repetition. That may have been what you had in mind, but what I was really only trying to point out was the fact that the Catholic Church is to be commended for its embracing of the principles of science as secular truth in the recent past, and for its adoption of local and historical culture to facilitate its teaching mission in the world, particularly among native cultures. I have noted that you like to capitalize the word "truth". I assume that you do that to connote that you are implying that G-d's truth is the only Truth. I'm certainly not going to dispute the conceptual veracity of that assumption. But, again, at the risk of repeating myself (I really hate having to do that, and it's not a good thing to hate!) the cover page for this website informs those of us who participate here that the questions asked in our explorations are more important to the reason-d-etre' for this site that any specific answers that any of us might conjure up to espouse our particular beliefs. Since you seem to not like spending your time refuting the questions that some of us ask with your specific beliefs, although I respect your right to hold them and to do so, you might find more benefit from these activities if you asked more questions and did not labor so much to give specific answers centering upon your personal beliefs. I too do not enjoy writing long posts because I always have to edit a lot of grammatical errors and mispellings, but that's life I guess. Or as Scotty Peck once observed, "Life is difficult." flow....

You are correct about what's been going on the last few hundred years. I personally believe that the growth in personally accessed and applied knowledge since we inherited it from our Islamic brothers and sisters about the tenth century, and the rising of more free-form systems of belief since then based upon older traditions, are not accidental happenings. Of course things such as the banishing of Jews from Spain and the horrors of the Crusades and the Inquisitions are but a few examples of conservative reactions to the underlying progress of western civilization. But, things change, and stuff happens. If it is indeed true that G-d is the author of history ( and I am convinced that Sh-He is), then it is equally true that the processes of evolution in knowledge and thought will naturally lead us to new and modified forms of belief based both upon traditional beliefs AND what we learn about our physical realities over time. The Catholic church is to be admired for its universal participation in scientific discovery, and for its policy of adopting local customs and forms of worship all over the world into its basic beliefs and rituals, even though they may have had their roots in pagan practices. This is a subtle sign from the church ordained by Jesus both of what has come before, and what is new that is being applied to humanity's collective progress through time. No, far from being an elitist view of civilization's progress, I view it as the eventual salvation of common people, which was the whole point of Jesus' visit among us. Hence did I originate my past rants elsewhere here regarding the monkey wrenches being thrown into the gears of scientific progress by certain sectors of the establishment. An old proverb comes to mind when discussions arise whenever the stopping of progress is apparently chosen over the embracing of the new after it is proven,"He who hesitates is lost". flow....

Applause ! Applause ! It's hard for me to type when I'm clapping my hands. flow....

Yes, it does get annoying trying to give the proper appelation to the supreme being, but I believe that the ancients had the same problem. When you read works such as "The Golden Bough" you are struck by the world-wide dilemma that has followed us through the millenia in trying to do this very thing. As I have noted elsewhere the most ancient folk knowledge of the identity of this being is that of the androgyne, and so I have settled on the He/She name that I usually use. But the G-d name Fred suggested some time ago satisfies me also because that is reminiscent of the name never used aloud by our ancient Hebrew brothers and sisters when this being first appeared to us in recorded history. That unsaid name also came to be known as Yahweh in later times, but I shy away from usage of that name since it connotes patriarchal and militaristic threads in the OT stories, and pretty much ignores the feminine aspects of the spirit. I have seen the name "Sh-He" used from time to time, and that may be a better choice since the analyzed genetic-historical record of modern humans shows that modern females were created at least 20,000 years or so before modern males in the south of Africa about 200,000 years ago. So allowing that the Supreme Being created us in Her/His image and likeness at that time, and since we were designated as G-d's vice-regents to be stewards of the earth in Sh-He's absence since then, the name "Sh-He" would work for me and may be temporally more appropriate. flow....

If I gave the impression that philosophical speculation regarding the nature of G-d was futile, I wish to correct that impression. I was only stating that there are limits as to what may be speculated upon, and those limits are what, like it or not, we come to collectively know and accept regarding the universe we appear to exist in on a day-to-day basis. It is tempting to let speculative subject matter blur into the realms of the supposed or wished-for. But my experiences in an academic setting always limited speculation to known foundations of science in order to keep speculative imagineings (is there such a word ?) within the bounds of possibility. Of course one must also account for individual and collective personal experiences outside of the bounds of proven scientific fact when it comes to G-d speculations. I guess that's where the mystery stuff comes into the mix, and that's what makes these discussions so difficult, since we are all different in our realities and our experiences. I presented a known set of facts as an example of what might be a basis for philosophical specualtion regarding the nature of G-d. I find that the examination of such historical and factual convergenges to be the surest way to reach collective concurrences. Dave's a good name too! It reminds me of one of my favorite 90's films (speaking of convergences! ), but that's another set of speculations. Maybe we've all got twins somewhere on earth trying to find us. Scary!!!!! flow....

" Think Different ! "..... Steve Jobs flow....

I give thanks every day for my life as it is. I had my Mom and Dad over ( both are about 90 ), and we stuffed ourselves with shrimp with cocktail sauce, celery stuffed with Wispride cheddar, whole wheat crackers with sesame seeds on top, sparkling apple cider, roasted turkey breast, casserole-baked traditional bread stuffing, corn, home cooked cranberrys with apple-pear-spices added, raw carrots, raw green onions, mashed potatoes, turkey gravy, candied yams with pineapple topping, lime jello with pineapple chunks salad on lettuce topped with sweetened dressing, home baked dinner rolls with currant jelly and butter, home made pumpkin and pecan pie with whipped cream, decaf coffee, and homemade pecan rolls for the next morning. I really like to cook up a storm on special days. A very creative exercise! Mom made the lime jello salad and the yams. BURP! I sent lots and lots of leftovers home with them, they really like to eat good food. So do I, but my capacity certainly isn't what it once was, for anything! Bob, we all hope your wife stays well, and I agree that things like that, once they are past are primary reasons for giving thanks to the supreme being for all that is good. Neandergirl, I thoroughly enjoyed the description of your day. Your description made all of us gluttons feel a might guilty for our indulgences, but only for a little while. Still got leftovers in the freezer, but I ate a salad after work today to ease back into the old routine. Flow....

neandergirl: Welcome to our verbal playpen! In believe that you'll find that pretty much anything goes here as long as it's in bad taste. But I digress. I believe that I like kim chee better than fruitcake as long as there is a cold El Pacifico available to drink with it between bites. Have lots of fun here exploring our unknown territories, East and West! flow....

It also interesting to note that Mohammed, the founder of Islam, reported an incident in which he was transported from the cave in which he meditated and received his messages from G-d to the Dome of the Rock on a winged white horse. There he saw Jesus and Moses praying and then he was transported into the sky where he conversed with G-d. The Judeo-Christian world does not have a monopoly on heaven stories, but we have more miracle stories regarding visions in the air when one considers what happened at Fatima in Portugal at the time of WWI, and at Medjugoria (sp?) in the Balkans prior to the commencement of the horrors commited there in the 90's. flow

METAPHYSICAL MYTHOLOGIZERS CANNOT BE IGNORED. GRRRRRRRRR! flow.........

Maybe we could call it "comfortably numb fruitcake" and market it in tandem with "special rastafari brownies". We'll make Fred CEO as long as he agrees to let me head up quality control and taste testing. flow....

As far as I can see there is only one person who has made definitive statements on this thread regarding the nature of G-d and his/her universe. I attempted to point out at the beginning of this discussion (?) how really futile it was to make such definitive, and hence, self-limiting claims; and, I believe that we're all experiencing this futility first hand as this thread tries to progress. We simply do not know enough yet about the infinite and all-encompassing nature of G-d. We may only surmise what certain clues to this information exist in the past and that are available to us for examination and interpretation. That examination and interpretation may be aired and discussed, and we may name that process as philosophisizing as to the nature of G-d. But attacking another's position in such discussions always degrades the process into bickering which results in circular discussions that are inherently non-productive. Here's an example of factual information that could be discussed and extrapolated into a feasable assumption or two as to the nature of G-d. Did you know that the devices that Joseph Smith, a former Congregationalist and the founder of the Mormon faith, used to interpret the golden plates that he found on Mt Cumorah were the very same that the high priest of the Hebrews used to interpret information received from G-d in the holy of holies in the desert tabernacle? They were called the urim and thummim. The same device names have been cited both in the OT record and in histories written regarding the early days of Mormonism. The context in which they were used is not entirely clear. But the record states that the user "gave urim and gave thummim" in order to obtain information from G-d. The Hebrew priest, and only once a year the chief/king of the Hebrews, alone were allowed to enter the holy of holies and ask questions that were answered by light emanations that shown forth from the Ark of the Covenant; and, when manipulated through the "giving of urim and thummim" gave answers to the questions that were able to be understood by the questioners. It might be worthwhile to discuss why this similarity separated by thousands of years exists, and what that tells us regarding the nature of G-d. I have found that such harmonic convergences (you may call them coincidences) are likely not coincidental. Consider that this similarity in usage occured in the context of interpreting sacred words. Why wouldn't the devices be useful to someone who is trying to interpret the nature of the unknown chemical contents of a can of Red Bull? Because that IS NOT the context in which these devices appeared when one considers the historical record. Philosophical discussions about known facts = GOOD. Bickering = BAD flow

I agree with much of what you say, Fred. But I would take it a step farther away from the realm of the philosophical into the realm of the physical. I would connote procession with light, and opposition with darkness. In the physical universe it is evident that one cannot fulfill its nature without the other; and, while the light logically proceeds with structuring, the darkness disassembles, represses, and provides the raw materials for such structuring. I believe the Gnostics may have understood these distinctions and based their beliefs upon these foundations if for no other reason than most of the philosophical foundations for mathematically-based scientific thought emerged from the classic Greek civilization rather than the Roman. What do you think? Another category of forces in harmonic opposition? flow....