cunninglily

hey ya'll i didn't want to start a new topic just to ask if any of you have heard that C.S. Lewis's "Chronicles of Narnia", beginning with "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" is being made into a movie? I just saw excerpts from "the making of" on one of the premium channels, which is the first I've heard of it...thought I'd pass it along. lily

I was raised Christian...Southern Baptist, hard-shell style...in what is called the Bible Belt which runs through sections of Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas (all "dry" counties...some to this day). I was baptised at the age of 7 (my maternal grandmother insisted that I be christened Catholic so I was given infant baptism as well) and was given a pink leather-bound King James that was my prized possession. My paternal grandparents (who helped raise me as my parents were unusually young) were both Sunday school teachers. Alcohol was forbidden, so was dancing, and heaven forbid that you should work on Sundays (unless you were a woman of course and had to cook Sunday dinner and clean the kitchen afterward). I was an unusually religious kid, I think, wanting to talk about Jesus and the scriptures with my parents and grandparents whenever I could corner them. Naturally, I wanted to be a missionary when I grew up. This is a good question; let's keep it: Were your raised Christian or did you convert from another religion? lily

Although I don't know exactly what your "true views" are, I suspect that you would find that you are not as unusual as you think you are. Anxiety over being able to fit in at a church is probably pretty normal after coming out of seminary. Often, people go through some serious shifts in thier faith because of the experience. As a result, they compare where they were before entering with where they are upon exit, with the prior being equated with "the church." I bet even evangelicals who slide slightly to the left even go through this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These were my thoughts too really. I'd even go so far as to say that this is an archetypal situation, because at some point a persons vision inevitably collides with material or concrete reality. In fairy tales, material reality=the dragon the hero must fight. Both material reality and the dragon symbolize inertia, both our own inertia and the inertia of whatever "system" we attempt to revitilize with our vision. Compromise, in both cases, must be made; hopefully without forsaking the lifeblood of the original vision. In short, I think this is a very important struggle you are engaging that will ultimately reveal your true motivations and test the integrity of your vision and both will make you a better pastor and church leader in the long run. Godspeed. lily

I don't need it, I can quit anytime I want. Since there is a Charbucks conveniently located a few blocks from work, I generally end up there every morning. My two standards are raspberry mocha, and cinnamon latte. Iced in the summertime, and easy on the syrups -- I want to taste the coffee, not the syrup. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> raspberry mocha and cinnamon latte? Is that really coffee? I'm from Louisiana and Coffee is black, rich, and strong and I drink tons of it with a touch of cream. If your son keeps you up at night Fred, you may want to try coffee Louisiana style...I promise you it'll get you up and going strong in the morning no matter what! lily

Pushing 50 eh? hehe...yeah, me too. (I adore Neil Diamond) lily

I do think you're right about this; and yet, in some mysterious paradoxical way, it is just as true that we are completely and utterly responsible for our choices. One of the most troubling texts in the Bible concerning destiny and free will comes from Matthew 26:24: "The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." That's frightening! The betrayer is destined to do "as it is written," but he'll be punished for it?! Awhile back, in the Fundamental Theology and Matrix threads, I suggested this problem might have a very succinct, if bizarre, solution, summed up neatly in a statement the Oracle made to Neo in Reloaded: "You've already made your choice, now you've got to understand it." Also my post from the FT thread: http://tcpc.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopi...=4613#entry4613 I find it utterly fascinating just to entertain the possibility that my newborn son chose us to be his parents, that his life will begin to unfold according to choices he has already made in perfect divine freedom, and that my task as a parent is to help him find his calling and equip him to carry it out. What a mind-bogglingly different way to approach life than the random meaninglessness bequeathed to us by our techno-scientific society! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You may want to check out this interview with James Hillman concerning his ideas in his book, The Souls Code... http://www.scottlondon.com/insight/scripts/hillman.html Christianity is rife with these sorts of contradictions and paradoxes: Some are "called" which indicates that others are not, while others are "chosen" indicating that some of the "called" as well as the "not called" are also not "chosen". The Bible states somewhere that God made vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor but woe to those made for dishonor and so on...I can't even pretend to understand it myself, but I am aware in my own life that very little of what is considered important in my life was actually "chosen" by me. Nevertheless, I do not ever feel that I am not accountable for what I do or do not do...there is an unerring quality of Justice that I recognize in life and from the most mundane point of view, I can see just how I became the person I am today, and recognize some of the "choices" that led me here. But there are always larger forces at work (Hillman talks a great deal about the environment or societal pressures which form us just as much, if not more, than our own "choices" do) and it is only my imagination which can envision different choices than the ones I've actually made, with absolutely no certainty that I could have chosen differently at the time of choice at all. In other words, I remain as I am for good or ill. You're going to be a great father, Fred. Congratulations to you and your wife once again. lily

I was coming back to post a note on "choice" and find that Fred has already touched on it. I quoted that, "many are called, but few are chosen" and then qualified that by placing "or choose" beside it. But I don't actually believe that any of us can "choose" to die to self; we can only desire to die to self or not, and since it can be argued that we are not the author of our desires...this suggests that God initiates throughout the process of salvation according to His Plan. In other words, God is the Initiator of every stage of His Plan of Salvation. Otherwise, we have the ego attempting to subdue the ego, which only strengthens the self life (which is, I believe, also necessary as only a strong ego can yield) and its deceptions. But then, I'm not as fixed on the idea of a separate and personal free will apart from the Will of God. I don't believe that our choices are quite as conscious as we like to think they are... more later...gotta split lily

I think that you will find several among us that would agree with both of these statements; that salvation was, is, and ever will be an accomplished fact in God and is universal, and that our personal identities are not eternal. We've discussed these things before. The interesting thing to me is what happens between our initial response to the salvific call and what may happen after we die. How does our salvation "flesh out" in life? Part of the challenge, at least, is a relinquishment of identifying with our personalities; dying before we die so that no longer is it I that live but Christ who lives in me. This, it seems to me, is key to the salvation of Soul. In modern, psychospiritual terms this can be thought of as the "death of the ego" and the supremacy of Self/Christ as ruler/Lord of the psyche. But it seems to me that this is not a "given" upon our initial salvation and that many are saved but few chosen (or who choose) to die to their "self" so that they become transparent vessels of the Spirit of Christ. Those who do "die to self" then become mediators between God and the whole of creation and thus taste the firstfruits of the salvation of the Body. And this is what the whole creation groans in anticipation of. It seems to me that if more Christians would consider that salvation is an on-going process intiated by God that must be worked out; that our Calling is to a great deal more than simply heaven when we die; that we are ultimately mediators between God and all of Life, that there would be a whole lot less "converting" and "condemning" going on and a lot more individual and collective "fear and trembling" as we struggle to let go of our lives and enter the eternal realm where Christ rules in and through us. lily

OHMYGOD! He's beautiful!

Well said (as always Also, it seems to me that this "kernal of truth" is unique to Christianity and essential to it. This is what was most ill-fitting for me in Paganism; this (for me) alien sense of "choosing" among a pantheon of gods the God you will serve. The indisputable fact that we've (I've) been Called...Be-Gotten, is what is unique about being Christian and what may be the secret to the devotion Christianity elicits in its ecclesia, even among those of us who for a thousand "rational" reasons could find the whole situation hopeless and try to turn to something else. (many of us have tried, eh?) And yes, even to the point of fanaticism and the worse sort of idiocies and atrocities. We are called and the experience is indisputable and unforgettable and nothing else ever comes close...or so its been for me. lily

Anybody actually interested in discussing the 8 points, one by one, and starting a new forum for that purpose? We could allot an amount of time to each in hopes of inspiring the other members of this forum who we have not heard from, or haven't heard from in some time, to participate. What say you? lily

P.S. I also favor a view of salvation as progressive and ongoing and will even assert that the Bible (NT) actually speaks of salvation as ongoing. Within a strictly Christian framework there appear to be three "levels" of salvation: The initial conversion salvation of Spirit, (which I do believe is without repentence), the salvation of Soul (which is worked out with "fear and trembling") and the salvation of Body (which is also manifest throughout the Lords Body, which includes the whole of creation). I'm running late this morning and so can't get really into it now, but I'd be interested in how this accords, or not, with your own understanding. lily

Welcome to TCPC's OPEN forum, sprout. It's good to have you with us. Understandably, given the excessive amount of time and space allotted to this issue of whether or not Conservatives should be welcomed to discuss issues important to them here, you appear to have the impression that we are all about "arguing" with "conservative/fundamentalists types" in order to convince them of a more progressive point of view. Actually this is not really the case. Very little of this actually goes on here. None of us are interested in arguing for arguements sake or in "converting" one another to our own point of view. Most of us would rather discuss the ideas of Ken Wilbur or other provocative thinkers than to engage in condemning and converting those who don't agree with us. I do want to point out however that the word "argue" is not a four-letter word. To argue can be to simply debate, persuade, or reason together...and this we do like to do here. Squabbling, ad hominem attacks, insults, and flaming don't usually occur at all, and if they do they generally either get ignored or shouted down. The few Conservative posters we do have here are intelligent, thoughtful, and genuinely engaged in inquiry and are not out to condemn or to convert, and often raise questions that we as Progressives perhaps need to ask ourselves. I think you'll like it here. Be patient, its Summertime and slow currently, but fascinating, challenging, and inspiring "arguement" should recommence soon. Again, welcome. lily

Okay. Let's look at the 8 points again starting with point 4: "By calling ourselves Progressive, we mean that we are Christians who: Invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable (including but not limited to): believers and agnostics, conventional Christians and questioning skeptics, women and men, those of all sexual orientations and gender identities, those of all races and cultures, those of all classes and abilities, those who hope for a better world and those who have lost hope" Any questions? lily

I'm fond of Lebanese food. I work as a housekeeper and personal assistant for the rich (where I learn a great deal about what "poverty" is and what "wealth" is.) I am also a tarot instructor. My first car was a Volkswagen Beetle. My favorite all-time book (and this is difficult as I have many favorites) is Annie Dillards' "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek". Did I miss any? Question: What short-term goal are you currently working on? lily

Happy News! Congratulations! lily

Greetings! and welcome. This is a good forum, in my opinion, for working out what it is to be Christian in a time in which a simple, much less universal, definition of the term is harder and harder to come by. I don't think that any one of us feels totally understood or "of one mind" all the time around here. Some times the challenge to both our intellects and our emotions can become intense, and differences of opinion, as well as belief, do occur. But there is almost no mud-slinging (and in a patient sort of way we don't tolerate much of it), condemnation, or ad hominem attack (which is pretty rare on ANY internet site in my experience, most of which thrive on such). In my opinion, this is a forum for Christians who don't have it all figured out, even while being in some cases quite settled in certain matters of belief or doctrine. Most thoughtful Christians (and I would say that most here fit this description) realize that there are problems within Christiandom and care enough about both the Tradition and the God it serves as well as one another to listen with an open mind and heart to the thoughts, ideas, questionings and the between the lines hurts, disappiontments, disillusionments and confusions that most of us share. Community is important. I know you feel this or you would not be looking for a place to practice your "private" worship. I understand how you feel. I too feel like a solitary Christian much of the time, which feels like a contradiction in terms according to my own Christian upbringing, as being a "member of the Body of Christ" is a major aspect to being Christian at all...but these are strange and treacherous times when many of us are very protective of our own personal relationship with Truth and feel a need not to define ourselves according to the Whole of Christiandom, but to our own individual experience of God in Christ, as well as a somewhat defensive need to separate ourselves from those Christians or Christian beliefs which do not speak the truths of our own hearts. Nevertheless, most of us here agree that it is important and of great value to hear one another out with com-passion, tolerance, and lovingkindness especially when we disagree. We hope that you will find this of value too. lily

I, personally, do wish that you would take this somewhere else. It's getting tiresome and productive of nothing. Several of us: myself, Peacemover, Fred, Aletheia, Xian, Cynthia, darby have all already told you quite clearly that we wish to keep the forum operating as it is. You seem now to be operating in your own best interests and not in the interests of the group and seem hell-bent on scapegoating Fred to boot. For the sake of your own comfort and security Beach, you are making everyone else uncomfortable and jeapordizing the security of the group. Please. Just stop. lily

Beach, this is an open forum. If the moderators and owners of the TCPC forum wished to close it to all but avowed "progressives" then we all would have had to write a letter of introduction asking to be placed on the list. There are many such message boards out there. This isn't one of them. Any individual who wishes to visit or join this forum is welcomed to do so. That's the way the TCPC message board has been set up. If you have a problem with this maybe you should take it up with the moderators. But keep in mind, as Fred has pointed out, that you are only speaking for yourself, as the rest of us seem quite comfortable being hospitable and open-minded toward all who come and post here. lily

Happy Birthday Aletheia!

Amen. lily

Point 8 "By calling ourselves Progressive, we mean that we are Christians who: Recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege."

Fred did not seem to me to be SO defensive at all...neither did I observe him passionately defending Bush, fundamentalism, or the religious or political far right. He seemed to me to be making the valid and important point that in the case of individuals it is unjust to categorize, stygmatize, ostracize, or condemn based on who they voted for in the last presidential election, or to categorize them based on this into some stereotypical fundamentalist far right "I'll fly away oh glory..." yahoos from Georgia that exist primarily to piss you off. He may even have been trying to point out that it is traditional within Christianity, Progressive or not, to "war not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers in high places" and that it accomplishes nothing to place your enemies in boxes nicely labeled so that you can practice target shooting. I voted for Bush in the last Presidential election. I don't pray for him as much as I should. Why people think it accomplishes anything to hate the man beats the hell out of me. It's as if the amount of emotion and hatred one can muster up against something somehow gets passed off as actually doing something to make the world a better place. Seems a skewered way of thinking from where I sit. And impractical. George Bush is the president of this Land. How is it Christian, Progressive or not, to continually pray evil against him with our hate? How is this bringing peace and health to the Land? In my mind what distinguishes Christians from non-Christians is that we don't fight on the same field. Our fight is spiritual and non-violent (and violence can be done without ever raising a fist) and we pray for our enemies, not hate them and mock them. Besides, life is not so simple as all that Beach. All of us act and have our being in God and none of us know exactly why we do anything. Many of us were once irritating and closed-minded fundamentalists ourselves. People change. It is best to be compassionate and patient with one another. Also, how will a Progressive Christianity gain a foothold as influence in todays world if we isolate ourselves from those that oppose us? As Progressives, it seems to me, we are very much concerned that the prevailing image of our tradition be re-structured as well as preserved in its integrity. That suggests to me that our primary aim would be to dialogue as much as possible with Christians who are not progressive. Granted, one should not have to endure the venomous condemnation of the more lunatic fringe among us, but we shouldn't assume that because someone is fundamentalist in many of their views that they are automatically "not one of us" and therefore "enemy". And lastly Beach, you are free to say whatever you wish, but the rest of us are equally free to say whatever we wish. That's how freedom works. You'll understand this better when you stop bunching us all up into camps based on your own limited understanding. The reason I say that those that are here belong here (whether or not they agree with you or me or Fred or Cynthia or darby or Aletheia and so on ) is because we only see in part...we do not know what God is doing in someones life and we certainly can't presume to know WHAT He SHOULD be doing either. I support an open, progressive forum that welcomes all who come. That is, afterall, the way the TCPC has set this forum up, and what seems to me to be in the spirit of a truly Progressive Christianity. lily

...but you contradict yourself Beach. You said just yesterday(or was it earlier today) that you don't want to dialogue with Non-Progressive Christians or Christians who support Bush ...that's not ALL inclusive is it? I'm curious also as to how you define "Progressive Christianity". The 8 Points are the guidelines offered for a Progressive Christianity and these do not define doctrinal beliefs, practices, or political affiliations for its associates. There is a tremendous amount of room in Progressive Christianity for a wide range of differing beliefs and practices including how one defines Christianity itself. Some Progressives may indeed focus on "social justice" first and foremost, but some Progressives may focus more on the "search and not certainty", or the freedom to explore the sacred dimensions of other faiths and traditions. In fact, I think it contrary to the spirit of Progressive Christianity that you claim to know what WE Progressives believe at all, or that you think that you can speak for ALL of us. Some Progressive Christians DO believe that Jesus is a Mythic rather than historic figure and some Progressives feel that there are many more differences between the Progressive position and the Fundamentalist position than just social issues. You seem to be inventing a Progressive Christianity according to what you need it to be. But Progressive Christianity isn't a "safe" place far away from the condemning voices of Fundamentalism or the mocking voices of modern Paganism, not will it save you from the discomfort of having your beliefs questioned or your positions challenged. Quite the contrary. Your only safe place is in God. In my opinion you are out of line to question whether any one here belongs here. If they are here they belong here. Period. If they are here just to fight or condemn or try to coerce people into believing their way, then they will either get frustrated and leave or the moderators will ask them kindly to take their fight somewhere else. I've seen no one here behave in this manner; at least no one that posts regularly. And in my opinion, Freds posts in particular, embody the best of Progressive Christianity with intelligence, thoughtfulness, and fairmindedness and I don't think that because he occasionally disagrees with you that this makes him a suspect "Progressive". Fred is a man of honor and if he says that he is a Progressive Christian then I have no reason whatsoever to doubt it, and I have seen nothing from him to justify making him prove it to anyone. It seems to me that you are trying to sow discord and to polarize this forum.As you are aware you are not the only one on this list that comes from a fundamentalist background or who has been hurt by fundamentalist thinking and attitudes. The biggest trap for we recovering fundamentalists is a tendency to become what we hate; to turn the tables and treat others exactly the way we were so hurtfully treated and to feel justified in doing it, because "afterall we are right and they are wrong". Some of your posts, Beach, approach this spirit and a truly loving community will point this out to you. lily