cunninglily

I never actually became a practicing pagan within any particular pagan tradition. I participated in a few rituals and discussion groups but essentially had a difficult time grokking the idea of "choosing" my own deities, and this comment is not meant derisively. I just never experienced the presence of the pagan gods, and the more paganism I studied or participated in the more Christian, it seemed, that I became...anything that actually rang a bell in paganism I had already essentially "tasted" in Christ, and the only pressing reason to choose to self-identify as both Pagan and Christian, as far as I can tell, is for the sake of fellowship and community with "like-minded" people, something increasingly difficult to find within established Christianity...at least where I live. But I empathize totally with the pull you feel and experience in and through Nature...I've "got it" pretty bad myself. I can remember years ago sitting outside in my yard with a few of my friends from church and while patting the ground with the palm of my hand, I said, "I feel Jesus right here...He's right here." and not one of them knew what I meant...and neither did I really...and still its more visceral or intuitive than thought. And yes, there are practicing "Christian Witches" and "Christo-Pagans" and "Celtic Christians" and so on and on...and though I flirted with these ideas, it seemed after all was said and done, that it just isn't necessary. We are both blessed and cursed in these days with the task of defining or re-defining Christianity, both for ourselves as individuals, and for the world in which we live. It is mindboggling to realize just how many different definitions of Christianity there are out there. So, for the sake of simplicity I am working to remain "just a plain ole christian" and to let the world know me by my fruits. This does not mean that I will not adopt religious rituals or practices that may raise an eyebrow or two "among the brethren"...it just means that I am a Christian as I observe these things, and nothing else. ~lily

I studied for a number of years with The Builders of the Adytum (B.O.T.A.) which is a mystery school in a "hermetic christian" tradition. This organization teaches that a personal free will apart from the "One Will" or the "Will of God" is an illusion...that basically we do NOTHING of ourselves and are only deluded into believing that we do. This belief is, of course, not exclusive to B.O.T.A. and can be found in the pagan belief in Fate or the Fates, which also excludes any personal will apart from the "Web of Fate". The problem with this teaching is obvious: If we have no personal will apart from the One Will then how can we be held responsible for our actions? Where and in what does our accountability lie? The whole discussion centers around the matter of Choice. Do we choose our actions? If we think about it, most of what we consider important about ourselves and our lives we did not consciously choose. Did you choose what you like or dislike or did these things "choose" you? Can you choose to like what you don't like or choose to dislike what you do like? The things that motivate or inspire or drive you were not chosen by you if you think about it. Did you choose to become a Christian or were you called? If you chose, as another example, to be interested in spiritual things then you can choose to not be interested in spiritual things. But can you choose to love what you don't love or choose to not love what you do? We believe that we make choices everyday...but in choosing could you have chosen otherwise? We certainly believe that we could have chosen other than what we chose, but could we? If you choose to have a slice of chocolate cake you believe that you could have chosen otherwise, but in the act of *choosing* to have the cake you have already nullified the choice not to have the cake. You can't have your cake and not have it too. The Bible states that "God made some vessels of honor and some vessels of dishonor" and where is the personal free will choice in that? And yet the Bible goes on to state, "Woe to you if you are a vessel of dishonor" (not a direct quote) and so we are still accountable for what we in effect did not choose. Mind-bending stuff. Greater minds than mine have grappled with this subject and I certainly don't have it figured out. I am still asking the questions. But, in my own life I hold myself accountable for what I do or do not do, yet at the same time I do not believe that I can truly act outside the Will of God for my life. Even when I appear to act outside the Will of God I believe that I act according to His plans and purposes for my life, and thus never truly act contrary to His Will. This does not mean that I do not suffer the consequences of my actions, for clearly I do, only that my actions are a result of larger forces, and not simply the result of my own personal and free will apart from these forces. ...and if I don't choose to get off my butt and get ready for work, my employer may choose to find someone more reliable....hope to discuss this more with you guys later. ~lily

At the time of the Vernal or Spring Equinox the day and the night are of equal length, so I assume this is what is meant by its "equal blend of darkness and light", but I have not personally encountered much emphasis on this fact in the local pagan rituals that I've witnessed. Most of the emphasis is on new life springing up from the *death* of Winter, planting, spring-cleaning or the clearing away of "dead weight" and the eternal life witnessed within the cycles of nature, ie, what "dies" in winter resurrects in spring and so forth. The Pagans refer to this holiday as Ostara or Oestre, named after a Slavic goddess from which our word Easter took its name. The Slavs were one of the last Pagan nations to convert to Christianity and held on to their traditions the longest. If you saw the recent movie "King Arthur", which is excellent btw, Arthurs Knights were Slavs who worshipped Rus (among others), who is a protector god and from which the name Russia has its roots. Arthur himself was a Pelagian Christian. The Slavic Pagans are interesting for their "double-faith" after conversion to Christianity, which means that they blended the "new" religion with their ancient pagan traditions. This is actually not uncommon in Pagan conversion...the "Witches" or "cunning-folk" of the British Isles were most often in church on Sundays. ...interesting eh? ~lily

Yeah, me too. In fact, that was in the back of my mind when I purchased the book. I have been a member of a local pagan group for the last two years, more actively at first than now, but I have made a few good friendships there, and have always been openly rooted in Christianity. But don't misunderstand me...most are either hostile to Christianity and/or mocking of it and the general consensus is that Christians are the enemy. I am accepted in this group primarily because I take care to use neutral language whenever possible and I never preach (you'd be laughing if you knew me better because I ALWAYS preach) and am genuinely interested in Paganism. But I am quite sure that if I began to be more openly and vocally Christian that things would become strained. It's a pity too, because i think the two have much to teach the other. I've always maintained, and said openly, that we share a common adversary, we Pagans and Christians, and it is NOT a particular religious tradition. Walter Wink has given me a new way to articulate this enemy in "The Powers That Be" and a whole lot to think about besides.... Let me know if you get anything going... ~lily

haha! ...er...yeah, exactly. ~lily

I wanted to add, if I may? I take pause at the phrase "jesus is lord". Is Jesus Lord? Or is Jesus the CHRIST, Lord? If Jesus is Lord then so are you and I , if I am to be consistent with what I said above. And what is Jesus thought to be Lord of but the whole of creation, and Jesus, the man, can not be Lord. Only as the Christ is He Lord. And what is a Lord but an Overseer? And is this not our goal as Christians? To become Lords or Overseers or Mediators or Co-creators with God? To act as Christ? ie under the Anointing or as Anointed Sons of God? In my own, not always so humble, opinion, it is the message of Christ, the Anointing, the Call and Purpose revealed in Jesus for ALL of humanity that "sells" a Liberal Christianity. This is what I think people ultimately hunger for....a sense of purpose in Life...and what greater purpose can there be? And what is more it already IS our purpose, we already DO mediate...we only do so more or less consciously....its already an accomplished fact. We only have to open ourselves to receive it; to KNOW who and what we really are in God. And I also don't believe that people have to necessarily accept the teaching of Jesus to understand their purpose in God...although I never quite understand why people wouldn't want to...excepting the bull that gets passed for "the teachings of Jesus", of course. ~lily

I appreciate this discussion...very interesting and important I think...but it seems to me to always boil down to etymology and language. There is a difference, which I'm sure you all here know, between *Jesus* and the *Christ*...and I always wince a bit when the two are used interchangeably, as I think it is at the root of much of the confusion which surrounds the perception of Christians. I don't think we are to be like Jesus. I think Jesus is the name of a unique individual who lived in a particular time and place in history. I think this Jesus is our teacher (and an incredible, fantastic, and challenging teacher at that), not our savior. Christ, the Anointed One, is our Savior and I believe the distinction is important. It is this anointing, this Christ in us that we are to embody....NOT the personality of Jesus. With this anointing we can do in our time what Jesus did in his. Christ in you is the hope of glory...not Jesus in you. I think ideally we should not shy away from the name of Jesus (I say ideally because sometimes I do and for all the reasons you have stated), because to my knowledge there has never been anyone quite like him, and as a teacher and example of what humanity can be in proper relationship to God, he is unequaled in my eyes. But, to me, at my current level of understanding, he himself stressed "the greater things" that we shall accomplish when we too embody the Anointing, or Christ in us....and that this is the really good news Jesus proclaimed, that each one of us can be transformed by Christ or the Anointing to become mediators of Gods Good Will for the whole of creation. But bear with me. I am very much "in process" and my understanding changes and evolves and develops in surprising ways quite frequently. Yesterday I began Walter Winks book "The Powers That Be" and could hardly put it down....fantastic book! I found myself falling in love with Jesus all over again....which, in my mind at least, does not contradict anything I said above. It always amazes me and fills me with wonder how *current* Jesus always is. There seems to be no end to what he can teach us. But it is with Christ in Us, to my mind, that we too shall go on to accomplish incredible things...not as Jesus clones, but as the unique individuals, living in a particular time and place, NOW. ~lily

I know quite a bit about the Tarot Cynthia. Do you have any specific questions? Ask away... ~lily

hello everyone I am new to this forum and delighted to be here. I live in Lafayette Louisiana with my partner Michael, our Malumut Sam, and a goldfish named Boris. I will be 48 the first of May. I work part-time in a shop that targets the Wiccan/Pagan population and facilitate workshops on the Tarot, with an emphasis on using the tool for the development of self-awareness and intuition. I also *read* the cards for clients. I am currently interested in Pagan/Christian dialogue, and work, in my own small way, to build bridges between the two traditions. The books which have made the most impact in my own life in the last year would have to be "The Way of Wyrd" by Brian Bates, and Peter Kingsleys two books, "In the Dark Places of Wisdom" and "Reality". I am searching for new and improved ways to articulate my faith (which seems at times to require the learning of a whole new language) and I am most confident that I am in the right place here for doing just that. ~lily

Greetings All I am new to the discussion and this forum and will progressively introduce myself (as that seems appropriate) as we go on...if that is okay? My current understanding of Christ Jesus centers around his role as a "Son of Light", a role assumed by others in pre-christian religions and mythologies, "born of a mortal woman and of Immortal Spirit", who is transformed through sacrifice from mortal flesh to Eternal Spirit. Our salvation comes from realizing and accepting that this role is offered to us, as we too are of "flesh" and "spirit", born of a woman AND of Immortal Spirit. We too are the Sons of God. Christ Jesus as the "first-born", the pattern Son, the Mediator between God and the whole of creation, demonstrates both the salvation of the soul of man (i tend to a belief in a tripartite salvation: salvation of spirit by grace, a salvation of soul which is "worked out in fear and trembling", and a salvation of body (which includes the Land) , and THE paradigm of mankinds ultimate role and purpose within the unfolding of Fate/Gods Will (my use of Fate/Gods Will is deliberate, as Fate gives to Gods Will the ineffable quality that I mean). We too are called in Christ to occupy our Sonship; to become mediators and transparent vessels of Gods Unfolding Purpose. Jesus Christ demonstrated in his life, death, and resurrection the pivotal ie crucial, crux, cross position Humanity occupies in this GREAT BIG UNFOLDING SHOW we call LIFE. Our purpose is found in Him and His purpose is realized in and through us. That is how he saves us and the whole of creation, "which groans as it awaits the manifestation of the sons of God". Or that is how it seems to me now. Thank you for allowing me to join this discussion. I've been spending a great deal of time in discussion with Pagan Reconstructionists, as I am interested in pre-christian thought and mythologies and find much of it instructive to my faith in many interesting ways, but the freedom to speak AS a christian is hard-won and often embittered, as I'm sure most of you know all too well, and so it is nice to feel at home. ~lily