des

She does! I am taking her on the road with me when I do the first annual des recorder and vocals concert at Carnegie Hall this year. ;-) --des You sing so well !! flow.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm, the "them" part would kind of bother me. Anytime it is us vs them, see that as a problem. I guess they are trying though. --des

Yes, I agree there is a lot to be said against what is practiced in the US as Christianity today, esp in the higher levels of government. But since I have a born again sister, I like to think about what things we might have in common. For me this has worked to a certain extent and we have a much better relationship than we have had previously (other factors like mom's dementia figure in). I also do have friends or let's say acquaintances with more conservative beliefs. I didn't quote Xian for the Nicene creed and I'm sure many progressives have a problem with the way communion or baptism are practiced/understood, I just liked the general quote without getting into specifics. I liked your statements Aletheia, thanks. No, I personally have great trouble with the crucifixation of Jesus as some child sacrifice. But a deeper meaning of sacrifice is all over the place and very powerful. I quoted Brian Swimme in my original comments in how he says that Christianity is built into the fabric of the universe in say the sacrifice of a supernova in allowing the creation of all matter. --des

Well you'd have to be rather general (ok very general) and not too specific to find points of agreement. I'm not even sure you actually CAN find real points of agreement, though I'm not sure why you xed out the ones you did when you just said "have to take that one off the list". I thought your comment on polytheism to be interesting. I have heard that some Jews really have an issue on this. I also saw something on the Anti-Christ lately, and they basically said, "once you get to one God" you have a big problem in what about evil and where that comes from. So that the ideas of physical devil actually are in Zooastrainism, etc. OTOH, I don't think trinity is inherently polytheistic. Some interpretations of it seem to me to be so, and others less so or not at all. For example if you think Jesus was/is God-- ok then what was God God doing at the time, so that seems kind of polytheistic, but if you don't think Jesus was/is God then it doesn't seem necessarily polytheistic. Ok, here's a question, "do you believe in polytheism. I don't think I do. I see that Creator, Christ and Holy Spirit are aspects of God. I suppose I could invision MORE aspects of God. I know that conservatives do not see any problem with Jesus being both person and God. OTOH, I have read that some religions are not quite as polytheistic as we imagine. For example, the higher scholars in Hinduism really believed more in aspects of diety vs there being thousands of dieties. Uh, I think that the state of separation is a pretty big thing! My statement "'just' a state of separation was to distinguish it from original sin. Heck I don't even think that original sin is a teaching of Jesus-- maybe of Paul. We got into quite a good discussion on atonement, etc. I think some other people did a better job on this than I did. I wouldn't say I am a very good writer on such things. Hmm, Jesus' life as some kind of guide. I have found this to be the case for fundies, etc. HOWEVER, they sort of view it backwards of the way progressives view it. IME, they see that IF they except Jesus as their Lord and Savior that their lives will follow that pattern and turn around towards more like what Jesus would actually do (Would would Jesus do is a conservative, not liberal thing). Whereas I think progressives tend to look at Jesus' work first. Well I would say that when it comes down to it, I don't really think we do have that much in common, otoh, I can read what darby says and a lot of what he says makes sense, resonates with me. OTOH, sometimes I think you could take a Buddhist and find more in common with him/her. And I very often feel more sympathy with Buddhist views fo the world. OTOH, I think after reading all these posts I think that Xian came up with a much better commonality than I did. "Therefore, it could be argued that a "core belief" of Christianity can't be found because it doesn't actually exist. Rather, what unites all Christians if the person of Jesus Christ, who is filled with many meanings. And his centrality is reinforced by our primary liturgical acts of baptism and the Lord's supper, and our most ecumenical document the Nicene creed. --des

I always tell my fundie/Evangelical (with a capital E) sister than I don't accept George W. Bush as my Lord and Savior. :-) I've wondered aloud why it is that some Evangelics have bought into the entire Conservative/ Republican party agenda hook line and sinker in a way that liberals never bought into Democratic party. (Regardless of the good that Johnson did in pushing the Civil Rights bill, he was still pretty much pushed out of office for the war in Vietnam). I think when religion gets too close to politics it lacks it edge to ever criticise it. --des

Hi, I am also in an OA UCC church. My understanding is that it was a BIG issue at the time (I am in a fairly conservative state-- on some things anyway-- kind of a purple state I guess). The general buzz is that members did leave over the OA thing. But those who did stay are very strongly for it. A few of the strongest members are parents of gay or lesbian kids. Many of the new members either came in because they were gay or lesbian or because of the strong stance of the church towards diversity (that would be me) made by the ad. (There were also some ads that the local churches put together and a sign on the front for awhile that said "Everyone welcome. And we mean it!). The pastor is also openly gay. To my knowledge no one left after the pastor was called here. This is just a great group of folks-- very welcoming to everybody. I have heard zero issues over it now, as I think the people that would leave have already left. (Funny thing, but we have a very large group of elderly that have had no issue with it either. In fact, talked to the pastor once about this, and he said some of these folks have been around in various social justice issues for 50 years maybe. There is a conservative element in UCC. THere is a website something like "biblical witness", which are UCC conservatives who want to "take the church back". (Why don't they go back Southern Baptist?) I don't think there is much chance they would split the church, but since the church is a group of three separate demoninations I guess someone can keep their identity-- more on that). But anyway that's a small no. I think. The other is that there are Congregational and others that never went into UCC, but I am not sure that was always about the gay issue. There are just churches that wanted to be MORE congregational than even UCC is. I think this is common in the east coast. It just isn't related to that issue. They are just really happy to stay Congregationalists. (I'm sure there is the other too.) I am uncomfortable with public displays of affection beyond say hugging or kissing on the cheek by either gays or straights. I think you could poll any no. of people and find that would be the case. I think people should do the kissing and so on in private. It doesn't have anythign to do with being straight or gay. Of course I teach in HS so I do see enough of the kissing and so on by straights! One time I went to a MCC church and there was a very high amt of caressing-- that seemed inapprop. at a church or even in public-- maybe due to feeling happy they *could* be open about it. But you don't see that sort of thing in UCC. The pastor told me once-- MCC is very gay. Funny comment coming from him. :-) I don't know-- our church community (and some other churches-- NM interfaith I think) was pretty active against the anti-gay legislation. It was not on the ballot in NM. I am guessing it would not have gotten on the ballot either. Of course, you know the point of it was to get people out to vote for GWB. SInce the election everything has been pretty quiet. I'm guessing there is zero drive for a constitutional amendment and it would have zero chance of passing (some people just do not want to amend the constitution over what they would consider a frivial matter). BTW, I think the whole thing was very shameful and the idea that straight marriage is somehow threatened-- I thought straight people were doing an excellent job of threatening marriage all by themselves thank you very much. :-) Hey welcome! And yes you can edit. Just do it fast. :-) --des

Just heard some comment on this book which was pretty funny. Anne Rice has gone to writing about guys that drink your blood to a guy who wants you to drink his blood. ROTFL! --des

Adrian Monk has met his match in me! :-) don't say I didn't warn you about Sudoku! It is highly addictive though maybe not as bad as Spider Solitaire, that one must be the addictive game of all time. OTOH, there was a game I played many years ago called Wazte. I haven't seen it since, which is just as well for getting anythign at all done in life. It was kind of slower, more glitzy horizontal Tetrisish/ Breakout meld thing. You cleared off some tiles and you got a newer set of brighter more interesting cooler tiles that cleared in a cooler way. Reminds me of a certain Star Trek next gen episode. But yes, Sukoku is cool, very simple and elegant in a way, as Fred describes. I am doing it more or less on a elimination process but I can sometimes kind of predict what might be where based on some other thinking style (other than deduction). Good luck. --des

Woops already read it. Usually if a dog barks continuously like that, it is not a sign it needs bark control (I have a rather barky dog at that), but that it isn't getting enough stimulation. As someoen said large sporting breeds like that need constant adn lots of exercise. People tend to get them for their looks. Really they are too much for many people to handle. They shoulda gotten a fish (though come to think of it you have to care for them too). --des

Well for those uninitiated Sudoku is a puzzle game played on paper (mostly) and in some newspapers. It has gotten popular very fast and a lot of newspapers have a daily puzzle. It is a numbers puzzle, but doesn't involve math skills (though I am guessing that the ability to visualize mathematically would make it a snap). Basically you have a grid and you have nos filled in for you and you place nos. 1-9 into the grid. (that is pretty rough on the interpretation side). There are good websites teaching you how to do it. There is no "luck factor" and there are skill levels, with easier and very hard puzzles. OTOH, it is very addictive. I find it more addictive than crosswords, etc. I have a friend who is very turned off by the nos. But there are shape ones and she could do these instantly. I've thought of what makes games addictive and it is what I will call the "snap factor". IF you have a mildly obsessive type personality (and many people do), you like things "just so". When you can get things exactly right they "snap into place". Sudoku fits the snap thing as there is only one right answer, there are no words that you might not know and you can always find a puzzle easy or hard enough for you, so you can always finish it (if it is in your range of difficulty). So when you get it the numbers snap into place. I think this is the same thing that makes me a jigsaw fan. Other games that might fit in this are Tetris, Breakout, Spider Solitaire ( a little more luck on the later though). OTOH, I am not too crazy about the peg game (Hi Q was one manufactors name). You might find one of these in a set of games in a thrift store. I think it is sometimes in sets with checkers, chess, etc. I got one in a set with for something like $2. I pick these up for work for those times when we let the kids play games once in awhile. I think this game might have that snap factor as well, but there are many times that I can't get just one other peg left. --des

>Oh, I impress mine by telling them I read book 6 in one day. When they go "WOW" I tell them that is because I read a lot and the more you read the better you get at it! Well I wouldn't say anything about how easy reading is for me, given as how I am teaching reading to kids with reading problems (dyslexia, etc.). >>With older kids you might get in trouble trying to stay up with them. My oldest right now are 6th graders who still think Harry Potter is cool. Some of the kids do like HP. I talked to a kid one on one the other day and he was planning on seeing it. Likes HP. But I am not sure he would say this in front of the other kids. You know how HS kids are. I think my nephew liked it as well. >I am now wondering/thinking it might be a more British view. I'm not up at all on British culture. I'm aware of the stereotype of the stiff upper lip, though. Though HP is equally British, and you don't see this sort of thing. When kids are bullied or picked on, it is quite apparent. I think that HP is more authentic is far as how real kids actually sound and feel. CS Lewis is an idealized or described childhood. It might be perfectly British too-- on a kind of a theoretical level. >> I'm sure some portion of the population (my sister for instance) would view his behavior as more indicative of a "fallen state". (Why the older brother and sister weren't equally fallen is beyond me.) Not even sure that that was CS Lewis' theology. I haven't read any of his non-fiction. >I've read very little of his non-fiction but you are probably right about the brother (perhaps eating the Turkish Delight is like tasting the forbidden fruit). And I think you pegged the inconsistency. Oh yes, the forbidden fruit. There's the allegory blaring at you so loud that you might even miss it occassionally, which I did. ;-) But funny thing about the allegory part is that his behavior doesn't really change after that. He doesn't really do a good job of plotting which one might expect after having tasted the forbidden fruit or show other signs of evil behavior. He just wants more candy ala the kid he is. >They are really promoting it on TV. I only go to the theater once or twice a year. I'll sit real close to the screen They are really working for the Christian evangelical audience. And I have heard it referred to as Christian lite. :-) I think it is being billed as an alternative to HP in some communities. Too bad it isn't anywhere near as good. But it was fair. I did enjoy it. It will be interesting to see if any of these characters grow into their roles. I thought the younger kids were better than the older ones though (in acting) so I'm not sure what to think about that. In HP the kids are getting better and better thru having worked together, and also I think getting better directors. --des

I think during the week before New Years there was the Apoc. week on the History channel. One night they had this program on the Anti-Christ. Daniel was mentioned prominantly. It was quite a good program or couple programs of where this came from (way back apparently) and needs for faith's with one God to explain in some way the existence of evil. Since I am familar with the rapture index and other elements of the Fundamentalist fringe, I didn't find anything new. But it was put together nicely. There was a real creepy guy that they showed stalking the scene. Occcasionally they had only the whites of his eyes showing. I guess that lost much of its creep factor for me seeing Geordi LaForge like that in the Next Generation. ;-) OTOH, I think the Science of the Bible on National Geographic is just top notched. NOt so much science as archeology, biblical scholarship, some geology, and history. --des

I got my alto recorder, which sounds like a, well $40 plastic instrument. Anyway, I am having a lot of fun learning this. I had my first lesson the other day. I have not (apparently) learned too many bad habits. I think my teacher is pretty fascinating so I am really happy she is volunteering (no charge for the lessons). Even though she is in her 70s, I believe us to be kindred spirits of sorts. It will be interesting, but I think that I have learned more about music in the last few months than I have ever known. But I have gotten into things before and then lost interest in them later. But I am enjoying this while it lasts. ONe thing I had not expected but I find it very relaxing. It is sort of like when I did karate, and all I would think about was karate. So I think about playing this and that is all I am thinking about it, so it has its meditative elements. Anyway, I am already watching less tv. (I have also discovered Sudoku. YIKES.) --des

You're lucky you work with kindergartners. I'm not quite sure if I want to stay up with what my hs kids are watching. :-) No telling. Most of them say that Harry Potter is "gay". (Current term for something they don't like.) Yesh! I think you're right about the view of the times re: kids. I think it might have been a more "children should be seen and not heard times" and children were not viewed as having very serious needs of their own, but seen as little adults. A boy like the younger brother would be seen quite differently today as more a bullied, perhaps even at risk (though I didn't see his problems quite that seriously). I'm sure some portion of the population (my sister for instance) would view his behavior as more indicative of a "fallen state". (Why the older brother and sister weren't equally fallen is beyond me.) Not even sure that that was CS Lewis' theology. I haven't read any of his non-fiction. I think it is a good one to see in the theater, but I don't think the special effects are THAT good-- computer animation was a bit on the crude side compared to, say, Pixar or even HP (which I think was Industrial light and Magic). (I'm really into this kind of stuff,btw. Did a little animation in college-- fun, fun, fun.) --des

I actually liked the movie better as it solved one of my very big dislikes of the book, the VERY stilted dialogue (yes, it was written way back when but I don't remember Tolkein being so stilted). But as I was watching the movie, I realized another big problemo imo. I didn't see the youngest boy (Edward??) as so bad. Ok, here is a kid in the middle of wartime; who misses dad and mom; and is lorded over by (IMO) very annoying older sibs-- know it alls and so forth. He is constantly put down by them. Then he finds Narnia and this witch just offers him comfort and sweets. I don't think he really had much of a clue that she was evil. His younger sister says he took away Thomas, but he never met this creature-- not even sure he exists. So when he goes off to find the White witch (and "betrays" his family) I was sure he was actually betraying in his own mind. He has no clue as to her nature, and doesn't know anything about this Aslan (who looks quite a bit like my cat). All he has to go on are some talking beavers and his younger sister. So I just had trouble with the whole allegorical thing--- this kid so called betrays his sibs and Jesus (Aslan) dies for his sins. I saw him as a confused, normal kid in wartime with a bunch of older bossy sibs. (OTOH, my sister coming at this from a conservative view, immediately saw him as the "bad kid". But aside from the sort of betrayal that seemed hardly like a real betrayal. I didn't see any badness. Of course if you tend to think humanity is bad basically I guess it is an easier leap.) I also didn't see the other kids as so free of fault. The oldeenr boy was so annoying, imo, and kind of remained so throughout, softening only at the very end. I wasn't as bothered by sexism as I saw it in light of the times more. The movie did deal with that in a way by making the youngest girl the most brave person in the film, imo. (Ok she didn't fight wars.) BTW, my cat, as I mentioned looks so much like Aslan. I knew he was my lord (no not MY LORD). :-)

Some people do describe incest as blood relative. Mind you I don't think marrying cousins is wrong, but I think that some people might. There is the issue of genetic disease. It might not be for the best at all times. --des

However, Waltzing Matilda is really an old folk song or a rather old song (circa late 1800s). It might have been popularized in a movie, but I remember singing the song in grade school. They did explain all the words, but I don't remember much. BTW, I agree re: hymns as music vs. the actual message or the medium is the message perhaps. Many hymns were written by great composers (ie Ode to Joy). I think this is where some of the modern music suffers, it just isn't as good music. (BTW, most of the CS hymns written by Mary Baker Eddy were not very good music either. And I also don't know what they mean.) --des

I took a very short one and got a 5. Seems like being autistic would prob. get you about that. ;-) --des

I'm guessing that we did have more fun as well (esp the day after-- you know our heads and tummies). I went to a party New Years Day. Funny thing, the lady who invited me was tellign me what she was making and I said I'll bring some Cold Duck. And she said, "we don't need anymore food!' :-) I said, No COLD DUCK, not cold duck. :-) It was the non-alcoholic variety, btw. Funny name if you think of it. I am going back to work tomorrow. I have been off so long I forgot how to teach. We'll see if ti comes back to me. :-) I sure hope so. And getting up at the crack of dawn. --des

Funny that you mention that most people are extroverts. Of all the forums I have been on (and there have been a few) where we have compared Meyers Briggs, most of the people were introverts. I am guessing the internet; people who participate in online forums; people who would take the test online; etc. has some bearing on the high introvert weight you see. I don't really think it is progressive Christians, but more progressive Christians that participate in online forums and will take online quizes, esp the Meyers Briggs! BTW, I would guess that most people are more a balance between the two. I'm not sure that this test "allows" that option. --des

Gee, what's an "average" UCC church anyways??? :-) --des

I am now goign to the UCC church but I did go thru a very long period of not believing in much (I don't think I was an atheist, more an agnostic); and then going to various spiritual activities. When to a pagan "service" once though it was more by accident.. Yes I missed the old hymns. But funny thing, Christian Science sings most of the protestant hymns (and some just awful ones written by Mary Baker Eddy who is one of the most awful poets imaginable-- don't believe me, read Mark Twain's hilarious and rather mean "Christian Science. Not one of his better works but hilarious.). These Eddy hymns are filled with such bad verse that I was never sure what they meant if they meant anything at all. "Bless brother birds that soar and sing and on the same branch bend. The arrow that doth wound the dove darts not from those who watch and love." Yikes. She could win the Bad Poet award. But most of the hymns are the standard protestant music with drastic revisions in content. For instance: all mention of mortality is cut; CS is substituted for references to holy spirit in many cases-- heck, CSists think CS is the holy spirit; no mention of martyrs or that sort of thing; emphasis on positive and happy. "A Mighty Fortress is our God" by Martin Luther loses the mortal, the ancient foe, woe. But goes on happily about how we "place" reliance on God. (Place is such a CSy word in this context.) But though I prefer the more Protestant words (UCC does make its own revisions for inclusive language). I can never remember them when I here the music. I am playing some of this on the recorder now and remember all the sappy CS words. Oh well. Gee, that was fun! :-) Thanks for bringing up hymns. (I'm sure you all now know more than you need. --des

Happy New Year! I celebrated last night by turning on the tv 5 min to midnight and watching the ball drop. I got a glass of club soda with lemon and when it was midnight I kissed the dog. . The I got out my recorder and played Auld Lang Syne (which I might add I can't actually play yet), as well as some wild and awful notes. I turned off the tv at 15 after. (I'm such a party animal). Prospero Ano Nuevo from Nuevo Mexico! --des

David that's better than the Onion! Maybe you should go work for them! :-) halleluah! --des

Though if it's like the library around here (or in Chicago) you might forget you even asked for the book by the time you get it. --des