PaulS

Well, I appreciate you having a crack at expressing your thoughts, Nolose. Any thoughts are worthwhile commenting on and discussing, but I'm not sure I agree with you concerning the metaphor bit. Whilst both evolution and the notion of 'God' may be complex and somewhat abstract, I am wondering out loud if individuals who have a particular notion of God in mind, imagine how that version of God fits when considering a time when humans hadn't even evolved yet. Largely I see Christianity as having an idea of a God that exists for humankind. Of course it's presented as though humankind exists for God, but that's not really how it is practiced in real life. And subsequently, when we take humankind out of the picture (e.g. prior to evolution of the species of homosapiens) how does that notion of a God now fit in the picture? Of course, others who have different notions about God may see their notion fit (or not) in a pre-homosapien world too. I just wonder if people think like that and reframe their notion/s of God to a different time and if it still works for them.

Can't say I'm familiar with the book, but you've picqued my interest by raising this old thread. Might have a look. Let us know if you ever have a look, Rom (if you would).

Personally, I think if he did everything wrong in this life he won't be reincarnating either! But seriously, the atoms that made up Thich Nhat will now disperse back into the ecosphere and become other things. Interbeing indeed!

These days, when I hear Christians telling me what God is (i.e. God's character, God's thought processes, God's intentions, etc) I can't help but try and relate all of those statements to my ancestors some 7 million years ago, and wonder how they could still apply. I'm talking about the precursors to homo sapiens, such as Sahelanthropus (the little fella on the very left of the pic below)who lived 6-7 million years ago and from whom we descend. More so I guess, I'm wondering how these people think about these things themselves. I find it hard to imagine any sort of God in modern Christian language, being the same present and unchanged God, some 7 million years ago (or even longer). Christianity often portrays God (and Jesus) as a friend, as a companion, as a caring parent. Now I know that many Christians have difficulty accepting evolutionary science, but of those that do, I wonder how they relate their present day God's relationship with humankind to when humans weren't humans, say when we were more like Sahelanthropus here, or going back even further, when our ancestors were blobs of amoeba, or whatever species we were leading up to evolving into apes. Was God interested in the 10 commandments 7 million years ago? Why would God wait 7 million years to make Israel his chosen people? 7 million years is a long time to wait to save humans from their alleged sinful misery - why didn't God act sooner? I often hear Christians saying also that "God IS love". I can understand some humans adopting that mindset through feeling that somehow we are special in this world (as different to dogs and cats, etc) but again, how does a God of love fit in a prehistoric world, before humankind. Do they think God was waiting for millions of years for homosapien evolution? Did this 'love' apply to dinosaurs and other animals killing each other and eating one another in the absence of humans? Now obviously most of these questions are irrelevant to me because I don't understand God that way at all. But I am curious how anybody who believes in God of any sort may relate said God to our existence 7 million years ago, and older. Any thoughts?

No, it's very secular here and religion is not pushed much at all. There's minimal influence in politics and the community as a whole just lives and let lives largely, I think. Religious zealotry around things like abortion and homosexuality are pretty non-existent here. We've recently introduced euthanasia laws without even a blip from religious folk. That's not to say fundamentalists don't exist - they do and there's still a significant amount of them, it's just that they don't really have much of a voice here. My family isn't particularly functional I would say. My sister has lived in Mexico for the past 25 or so years since she and her husband believed God told them to move there and evangelize. Covid-aside, I see her/her husband/their 2 x kids, every 2 or 3 years, but apart from birthday/Xmas presents and the odd email, we have little contact. My parents too, I have little in common with. They live about an hour north of me but I haven't seen them in the past year. We've always been meaning to catch up - but just never got there. So my kids don't see them very much. I set the standard very early on with my parents concerning what they could say to my children about religion. Essentially I told them that if they ever preach eternal damnation, being unsaved, humans being worthless from birth as sinners etc to my kids, then they would never see them again. I won't tolerate that garbage being taught as fact to my children. My parents have respected that, but when you don't have faith in common with family, it seems to leave very little of substance to relate on.

It seems I'm often role modelling 'what not to do' to my kids! I guess that's still a way for them to learn. To me it seems we (homosapiens) have an almost 'unnatural' affiliation to how we think we need to provide so much to our children. I mean we are the only species (as far as I'm aware) that spends so much time and effort on their progeny. Does any other species have such a direct relationship with their offspring past a couple of years? I guess that's a product of self-consciousness perhaps. You see it somewhat in troupes of apes and monkeys - a family/community unit of sorts, so I guess we can see the prototype? My boys are 15 & 17yrs now and I am very conscious of them 'leaving the nest' within the next few years and standing on their own two feet. As parents I think the best we can do is try to teach our children how to think - how not to just swallow what they're told by even respectable people (including parents) who might be wrong. Importantly for me, from a ex-religious perspective, I think kids need to understand that we're not playing for sheep stations here. There isn't a place of eternal suffering or an eternal playground waiting for us when we die . "Life itself is the journey, not something to be 'survived' in order to reach a destination" so to speak.

Welcome to the Forum, Desmond. I hope you enjoy participating here and get something out of it. Just an idea, maybe see if you can find a Progressive Christian group in your area - if you desire community, friendship and the sharing of like thoughts. This link might help if you want to try and find a local group within your area: https://progressivechristianity.org/global-network/ Cheers Paul

We certainly do, Desmond! Welcome.

Precisely. It's often portrayed as teaching the child 'right' behaviour but you're dead right, it's more about making sure the child believes what you want them to believe. My direct experience is Christian parents who truly believed their religion and who wanted their children to believe it to. I imagine, like many Christian parents, they were in part driven by well-intentioned fear - the fear that the unsaved would be condemned to eternal pain and suffering, and who would want that for their kids? (well actually they don't want it, but they worship the God who they think does it). So convinced are they of this belief that they think it is imperative to make sure their child believes it too. My main concern about children bibles is that the bible is an adult book and kids shouldn't be reading it. What is a child to make of genocide, stonings, stories about adultery, etc. Of course childrens' bibles don't really illustrate or focus on 'that' stuff, just the warm and cuddly bits usually. Enter the next generation of Christians who don't understand what the bible really is, how it was put together, that it was written by numerous individuals over a thousand years from different generations, cultures and perceptions of the individual's times.

Shared with permission from Philip Gulley: One of the things I admire about Joan, besides her intelligence, kindness, and beauty, is her uncanny knack for remembering dates. Sometimes, out of the blue, she’ll mention, “Today is so-and-so’s birthday,” and it will be someone we knew 30 years ago who we haven’t seen in years. But Joan remembers. She’s that way about faces, too. She has 600 students a year in her library, and we’ll run into a college kid who’ll ask, “Mrs. Gulley, do you remember me?” and she always does. And remembers their brothers and sisters too. For years, I could never remember my sibling’s birthdays. I wake up, and Joan says, “Don’t forget to call your sister. Today’s her birthday.” I say, “What, you think I’m an idiot? I knew that,” even though I didn’t. I always forget my sibling’s birthdays, except my brother Doug’s. I’ve not forgotten his birthday ever since he turned 42 on September 11, 2001. It’s a shame it takes a national tragedy for me to remember my brother’s birthday. There are other dates that have taken on fresh meaning for me. Growing up Catholic, I was accustomed to celebrating Epiphany, the visit of the three wise men to honor the infant Jesus, on January 6th. But now whenever I hear the date January 6th, my mind goes immediately, not to Epiphany, but to the violent insurrection at our nation’s capital, aided and abetted by our former president. The word “epiphany” means “appearance,” specifically the appearance or manifestation of a deity. But “epiphany” has another meaning―a moment in which you suddenly see or understand something in a new or very clear way. I’ll use that in a sentence. Last June, when I forgot our wedding anniversary, Joan had the epiphany that she should have chosen a smarter husband. The story of the wise men, coincidentally, illustrates both definitions. It is first a story about the appearance of a deity, and secondly a story about understanding something in a new way, illustrated by that curious tale in Matthew’s gospel of the magi’s visit, how afterward, in a dream, God warned the three not to return to Herod, who was scheming to murder the infant, but to go back to their homeland by a different route. They understood something in a new and very clear way. We might say that after the Epiphany, the wise men had an epiphany, causing them to go home by another way. This morning I want to talk about epiphanies, which in our Jewish/Christian/Quaker tradition is one way God leads us. In the Bible, every time you turn a corner, someone was having an epiphany, whether it was a burning bush speaking to Moses, or the Apostle Paul being knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus, or the apostles meeting the resurrected Jesus on the road to Emmaus. When George Fox, the founder of Quakerism, had a vision on Pendle Hill of a great people to be gathered, we could say that was an epiphany. We read about these instantaneous, transformative moments of people understanding something in a new way, these Aha! moments. Our tendency is to believe this is how God usually works, in an immediate, miraculous manner, intervening in space and time to either reveal something to us or perhaps even do something for us. I know a woman in her mid-30s who desperately wants to be married and have a family, but never dates, because she believes God will reveal the perfect mate to her with no effort on her part. When her friends say, “I know someone you should meet,” she says, “No thank you. I’m trusting God to bless me with a husband.” There’s a word for people like that. The word is single. Some people spend their whole lives waiting for epiphanies, for God to tell them who to marry, for God to tell them what kind of work to do, for God to tell them which house to buy, or whether to have children. They wait for God to tell them where to attend church, for God to bring them friends or wealth or mental well-being or physical health. Their entire lives rely upon spiritual bolts of lightning that will magically transform their lives, which is the worst sort of spiritual laziness, asking God to assume responsibility for their choices and lives so they do not have to. I know pastors who never prepare a sermon, believing God will tell them what to say as they’re standing in the pulpit. I know Quakers who will not prepare for meeting for worship beforehand, so they can be blank and empty slates for God to speak through, which God seldom seems to do. I know people who persist in dreadful, damaging marriages, believing God ordained their marriage and will therefore miraculously improve it. I know folks who languish in soul-numbing jobs, believing God has better things in store for them in some mysterious, elusive future. I know people who neglect their health and abuse their bodies, believing God will one day heal them and make them whole. I know people who will happily follow a tyrant, believing God is accomplishing divine purposes through an imperfect vessel. (Trust me when I tell you things like that never end well. Remember January 6th. Not the Epiphany January 6th, but the other January 6th.) I know people so willing for God to rule and control every aspect of their lives, they will abandon personal responsibility and call it faith. To be honest, I am amazed God had to warn the three wise men to avoid Herod, when it was clear to anyone with half a brain that Herod was a scheming, evil, narcissistic bully. Wise men? One has to wonder. I once had an epiphany. Do you want to know what it was? I once had an epiphany that I should not ask God to do something for me that I was not willing to do for myself. Nor should I ask God to guide my decisions unless I was willing to study, learn, reflect and glow, in order to make better decisions myself and save God the trouble. Do I believe in epiphanies? Do I believe in rare instances God might grant someone transformational insight? Yes, I do. But I don’t bank on it, just as I don’t bank on winning the lottery to provide my retirement. What I do bank on is my capacity to think, my ability to work, my willingness to make difficult and disciplined decisions based on the evidence at hand. This is not hubris. This is what it means to be a responsible adult. Friends, we should not require God to warn us in dreams about that which is clearly observable in our waking hours. Don’t spend your life waiting for an epiphany, for a magical moment to resolve all your difficulties or satisfy your deepest longings. I read a wonderful thought this week from Ralph Waldo Emerson, so fitting as we begin this new year: “The only person you are destined to become is the person you decide to be.”

Hi Lauren, I have answered in your other thread, but again, please know that many of us have battled with losing our faith in traditional Christianity and speaking from experience, I know it can be very, very hard. Please, keep breathing, keep pushing through. You will come out the other side eventually. Paul

Hi Lauren, I'm sorry but I don't know of any specific PC advice hotlines. There are possibly some PC congregations in your area, but other than that I only know of online resources, such as the TCPC site attached to this forum (here: https://progressivechristianity.org/) and also the various discussion threads within here. Many of us have battled with losing our faith in traditional Christianity and speaking from experience, I know it can be very, very hard. Please, keep breathing, keep pushing through. You will come out the other side eventually. If you are contemplating suicide, please contact a secular suicide hotline. They are an excellent, non-judgmental resources that can help you if you are in this position. Whatever is going on Lauren, know that there are people who love and care for you, and people like me who hope you can find peace after losing your faith. I lost mine too once upon a time, and have come out the other end happier than ever. It can be done. You will get there eventually. Feel free to raise any questions or discussion points here also if you want to. Cheers Paul

The Gospel of Matthew presents Jesus's ministry as largely the fulfilment of prophecies from Isaiah, but in the time of Jesus the Jews of Palestine no longer spoke Hebrew, and Isaiah had to be translated into Greek and Aramaic, the two commonly used languages. So in relation to the 'virgin' prophecy in Isaiah 7, Bart Erhman points out that the original meaning of the word parthenos in the Septuagint (i.e., the Hebrew Bible translated by Hellenistic Jews in Koine Greek) is "young woman", not "virgin", but the word changed meaning over the centuries, thus the authors of Matthew and Luke promoted the notion that Isaiah predicted a virgin birth for the coming Messiah, so they endorsed their choice by quoting the Greek translation (of course the story wasn't a prophecy but was an actual story for the time of writing). And so the cult of Jesus worship begins and the focus becomes the person, not the teachings.

Philip Gulley is a Quaker pastor, writer, and speaker from Danville, Indiana. Gulley has written 22 books, including the Harmony series recounting life in the eccentric Quaker community of Harmony, Indiana and the best-selling Porch Talk essay series. Gulley’s memoir, I Love You, Miss Huddleston: And Other Inappropriate Longings of My Indiana Childhood, was a finalist for the Thurber Prize for American Humor. In addition, Gulley, with co-author James Mulholland, shared their progressive spirituality in the books If Grace Is True and If God Is Love, followed by Gulley’s books If the Church Were Christian and The Evolution of Faith. In Living the Quaker Way: Timeless Wisdom For a Better Life Today, Gulley offers the opportunity to participate in a world where the values of the Quaker way bring equity, peace, healing, and hope. Living the Quaker Way invites readers to encounter the defining commitments of the Religious Society of Friends–simplicity, peace, integrity, community and equality, and shows how those ideals can be incorporated in personal and public life to bring renewal and eliminate the clutter that is keeping us from deeper spirituality. In his most recently published work of non-fiction, Unlearning God: How Unbelieving Helped Me Believe, Gulley describes the process of spiritual growth, especially the re-interpretation of the earliest principles we learned about God. Gulley teaches the reader to let go, or unlearn these burdensome obstacles in their faith so that they can forge a more authentic relationship with God. Gulley’s latest fictional series continues the exploits of Sam Gardner, first introduced in the Harmony series. The new Hope series includes A Place Called Hope, A Lesson in Hope, and A Gathering in Hope, his most recent fictional release. You can also read Gulley’s essays in every issue of Indianapolis Monthly and The Saturday Evening Post. Philip has kindly given permission for his weekly newsletter sermons to be posted in this Forum. The weekly Newsletter Sermons can be found on Phil's website - https://www.philipgulley.com/ JOIN PHILIP FOR SUNDAY WORSHIP You're invited to join Philip and Fairfield Friends Meeting online for their worship services (Sundays 10:30-11:30 a.m. EDT) via Zoom. Please note that this is a new Zoom link: Join Zoom Meeting https://us02web.zoom.us/j/83152822906?pwd=UDkzR3NPNlB5N29QY0svelRkNkUwdz09. Meeting ID: 831 5282 2906 Passcode: Quaker

Merry Christmas, Rom (and everyone here), It's Christmas eve here in Mandurah, Western Australia. Our capital (Perth) , one hour north from here, is expecting 43°c tomorrow (nearly 110°f) - the hottest Xmas on record apparently! So we're anticipating another sweltering Xmas Day (not unusual for Australia ), but thankfully we're lunching next to a water source ( a canal), so we will be able to cool off! That and air con of course! Thankyou to you and everyone else participating here, for being a part of this forum and helping to keep it alive. Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, and/or Satisfying Saturnalia to all. Cheers Paul

A pretty accurate summation of what biblical scholarship has been saying for the last several hundred years - but as you know, rarely heard within Christianity. I believe this is because of the 'threat' factor - i.e. many Christians who know about the scholarship and are in a position to share this information, deliberately choose not to, fearing that God's 'sheep' might startle and decide to scatter! They think that their congregations won't be able to re-understand Jesus, and so they act as though they are Colonel Jessup - "You can't handle the truth!". I think there is a fear there that revisiting this Xmas story (and other biblical stories such as the creation myths and so-called 'original sin') will weaken the religion. Quite possibly it will, but there is a way to re-frame Christianity, if Christian's could so choose, and that is by understanding some of the key messages of Jesus (love one another, turn the other cheek, put people before material items, etc) as a way to live in harmony with God and not Jesus worship as a cult behavior. Jesus may have been preaching about an impending Kingdom that didn't come, but that doesn't mean all of his teachings should be disregarded. Jesus taught some valuable lessons. But we are where we are today because of cult worship of Jesus, and that's what needs to change in my opinion. It looks like your friend Alex is contributing to breaking down centuries of misinformation and misunderstanding. I think the other thing worth noting is that Christmas was surreptitiously introduced in Roman December because the people were already celebrating the summer equinox at that time of year. The Romans called it Saturnalia and many cultures celebrated at that time of year for the equinox. Christianity decided to introduce its celebrations at that time for a reason (to overtake the celebrations with a Christian purpose). So culturally it is pretty normal for humans to celebrate life at this time of year, whether we want to call it Christmas or not.

Hi Beanieboy, Sorry to hear you're living in your car - if that's not by choice then that's gotta be tough. I hope you hold in there. This isn't a debate/discussion section so I won't say anything about how I think it is a good thing that you are questioning such tenements of your faith, but I do hope, no matter where the path of inquiry leads you, that you will be kind to yourself. It's okay to question. Many before you have moved away from traditional Christianity for similar reasons. You are not alone. Cheers Paul

Interesting too that those countries frequently score the highest for the happiest countries in the world too!

Oh John, I’m so sorry about your sister. That is such a tragedy. I shouldn’t have been so flippant about fundamentalism - it really is evil. I was lucky I guess that I was able to move on after a couple of years of anguish, and have a good life (25yrs married, 2 boys myself, a couple of different careers). But when I was suffering financial distress back in 2008 I started developing anxiety and depression, and during this time I had a relapse of doubt about Christianity. I was in a very big hole where I couldn’t believe what Christianity taught, but was simultaneously caught with worrying about ‘what if’ they are right about Hell. These thoughts plagued me for months and I was seriously considering killing myself just to end my suffering. My boys were just 4 and 2 then but I remember seriously thinking that I was just going to have to leave them behind. I can’t take any credit, but I was lucky enough just to keep breathing until my head finally came out the other side. These days I see my parents very little - they’re still passionate about Christianity and I find it very hard to relate to them. We have little in common. And my sister lives in Mexico as a missionary. Missionary is probably a bit melodramatic but she moved there with her husband about 30 years ago because God told them to and they set up a cafe whereby they evangelise. I don’t wonder too much how things could’ve turned out differently had I stayed in Christianity. I look at it these days and know I made the right decision. Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you or cause you any pain.

I don't know what it is properly labelled, but I lean toward thinking that God 'is' everything. So anything that happens is - happening to God, is within God, and is of God. I think this fits your understanding of the 'universe unfolding' too, Rom. God simply is the existence of everything. I don't know if that means God has any sort of consciousness or understanding of what is happening in any sense of the word as it means to us, but for me it leaves room for the mystical (the things that I have experienced that don't have any explanation to me) but also helps me accept non-duality and the understanding that life just 'is'. For me it also explains this physical body and its current consciousness 'dying' and its atoms disassembling and moving off to find new uses elsewhere, but never leaving the closed system (i.e. the universe unfolding - God).

Thankyou. That's an interesting point about the snake, John. I have read comments about this before but never delved into it much. It certainly seems plausible that the story could knock off two birds with one stone - why humans have a hard time surviving but also an opportunity to surreptitiously sledge other beliefs.

Wow, I bet you were a fun guy to be around, John! I know what you mean - Certain that your beliefs were right, certain that those with an alternate view had no idea what they were saying, and certain that no matter what hardships you faced, in the not too distant future you'd be kicking back drinking milk and having an endless supply of honey for your toast! . It made life pretty easy to bear, so I understand the attraction. Until the cognitive dissonance sets in - then you're buggered!

Very seriously, Rom! I was raised from day one on it, 'gave my life to Jesus' at 14, truly and fervently believed 'in' the bible, taught Sunday School, and talked to Jesus every day. I was a worthless sinner who was otherwise destined for hell but fortunately, I managed to see the light, unlike those from my school and early work years who I was told were deliberately choosing to disobey God because they thought they knew better. Those unbelievers were deliberately rebelling and were refusing to accept what God was offering them. I evangelized, went to Church morning and evening (on Sundays), belonged to our Youth Group who met on Friday nights, and for my teen years played basketball within our Church community (i.e. the Churches of Christ and later the Baptist basketball associations). My Church and larger Christianity, was my entire world. You may recall my faith started to get challenged when I was around 18 or 19 and by the time I was 20, I had decided Christianity was bunk (fundamental Christianity that is, but I didn't know any other way to understand Christianity). It was so clearly a human construct. When I first started questioning, it was really within. I didn't go to my Christian friends and family and question them. I guess I didn't feel comfortable because they were firmly committed (or so it seemed) and the few times I did express doubt, I was told I was backsliding or choosing to ignore God's Word, etc. I noticed that my Christian friends did not feel comfortable with me showing that I was having doubts. That's where I think this Christian anger in defending belief comes from - a subconscious fear that if one goes down this path and questions their beliefs, they could end up in a whole world of hurt and standing outside of their community looking in. For me, all the people who I grew up with, who I spent my days and evenings with for the first 20 years of my life, who were my only friends and social circle for so long - within a couple of years I had nothing to do with them. That was partly my choice but largely theirs. I did take more of a moderate agnostic path as I was leaving. I remember being interested in other religions and cultures and learning about how similar they were to Christianity in so many ways, but at the same time completely different. I began to see how this was more human nature at work than some supernatural entity. I just worked through this over the next couple of years, with lots of guilt and momentarily relapses back into Church (but not for long) until by 20 or so, I was finished with Christianity. It wasn’t until I was around 40 that I revisited it and learnt stuff that reinforced my earlier gut instinct. I do remember being very angry with God whilst I was on the way out. How dare God send people to an eternal Hell (or some other kind of God-absent eternity) for basically being human! I didn't know that some Christians believed more in extinction of sinners than eternal suffering, but that doesn't change my opinion of such a God much. I demanded, requested, and begged God to show me a sign or talk to me or do something to reassure me that He was real. How hard could it be for such a powerful entity to just sound like a voice in my head, or appear apparition-like to convince me, just something. But alas, I was talking to myself. Look, I don't really think that MJW is questioning his (or her) faith, as far as they are aware. But I do think that sometimes the anger to defend comes from the deep-seated fear that they could be wrong. I don't think people even realize it, but there is a very real fear, I think, amongst many Christians, that if they open the door too wide and let doubts in, they will fall apart and all will be lost. When I was losing my faith I didn't lash out but then again nobody posed difficult questions to me. I just got told I was 'rebelling' and told to get back with the program. Nobody even really wanted to know why I was doubting. I think they didn't want to hear because they too were scared of hearing the doubts and maybe being 'infected'. I didn't get angry - I just thought, how can I be a part of this? - I can't - this stuff just isn't true. I didn't have a black hole to fall into though - I was working, had a social circle, and really just moved on with my life.

Sorry Rom, I just don't like to see any creature of the Lord suffer! :). But seriously, I've been in MadJW's position before and appreciate how scary and difficult it can be to question what you have been told most of your life and have been convinced is the only way to see things. I anticipated that MadJW already had his (or her) mind already set on how they understand things. I was hoping to show how this whole concept about 'sin' is misrepresented by Churchianty (mainly with good intention, but still nonetheless misrepresented), and how this theology of sin and needing a saviour in Jesus only developed over a long period of time and didn't exist since the beginning of 'creation', as these Genesis stories clearly reveal. Clearly we're not doing 'nothing' about the account - after all we are sharing & demonstrating to you what so many unbiased biblical scholars have shared over the last few centuries. Bible words mean everything to Christianity - when it suits the narrative. No Christian likes their theology being challenged, especially by the very book which they thought they understood. But here you are given an opportunity to counter these points and put forward any logical argument you may have, but you choose not to. Maybe ask yourself why you do that. Please peruse some of the older threads here. There is a wealth of information here about topics that I am pretty sure your research hasn't even touched upon (based on your understanding as expressed above). There is nothing to be afraid of and as some would say, the truth will set you free. Please do remember this is a general discussion section of the Forum. So please, debate a point, provide logical argument (discussion), and ask questions by all means. But simply responding to other people's evidence and argument simply by saying "Nope, you're wrong" is a time waster for everybody. We would all like to see your counter argument to the points made above and questions asked, but you seem to not be prepared (or able) to do so.

The first biblical mention of sin is Gen 4 (sin is never mentioned in the Garden of Eden Story) and coincidentally, the first mention of sin provides no explanation of how sin was introduced. Further, when God cites sin in Gen 4, God is telling Cain that he can 'master' it. At this point in the bible there is no such thing as an eternal curse of 'sin' on mankind that needs an external saviour or separates mankind from God. As we can read for ourselves in Gen 4 - 'sin' is masterable by man. Your language seems influenced by Church teachings - where do you get the words 'rebelled' and 'command' from? Genesis 3 only says that God 'said' this or that. You don't have to put words in God's mouth - Genesis 3 is clear enough and God does not talk about commands or rebelling. For those that believe God inspired the words in the bible, I find it strange that the words God so inspired, seem not to be considered 'adequate' enough and require 'beefing up' to make a point by those who think some point about ‘sin’ needs to be made (a point that wasn't even there in the original story).