PaulS

No doubt it won't be easy, but it is the only way for change to happen. It's not going to change from the outside.

Alamar, Just for your info, I think the bed/soul weighing story you are referring to is an urban myth based upon a doctors research in 1907 where he concluded the soul weighed 21 gms. But his study was riddled with errors and holds no credit. http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/236-how-much-does-the-soul-weigh.html I'm not saying that to discredit your beliefs, I just don't like urban myths being credited as fact . In your case you say it is proof. Unfortunately it is not. Disclaimer - I'm happy to be corrected but I can find no facts to verify your claim. Cheers Paul

John, Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy participating here. I think it's great your conservative friend is sharing Spong's thoughts. I know it's not your friends intention but perhaps more conservatives will start to question their narrow view of Christianity. In answer to your question, I don't think 'belief' in God matters in the slightest. It might sound cliche but I think it's not whether one believes in a God or not that matters, but how one lives their life. There can be both believers and non-believers who are kind and considerate people, just as there are Christians who are nasty, judgemental, exclusivists. Cheers Paul

Biblical literalists can perform miracles when harmonising diverse cultural attitudes spanning more than a thousand years. It's just that their explanations defy logic in my opinion.

Yes, more in the meaning that I am not a Theist. To me, agnostic still leaves room for theism, which I definitely don't believe. But I do leave the door open for some "unmoved mover" of sorts.

I'm not sure, Eric. Maybe some like to retain a connection to their roots as traditional Christianity is probably where most PCs come from. Personally, I would encourage the use of the word Christianity to help others trapped in fundamental Christianity to understand there are other definitions of Christian rather than the narrow, exclusive one promoted by fundamentalism.

Eric, Obviously others will have their own opinions but I'm thinking everything you wrote above certainly falls under the PC umbrella! I don't think anything you says goes against the 8 Points of PC (not that they're the be-all & end-all) and in fact much of what you mention aligns with same. Cheers Paul

Eric, I don't know whether Jesus really did curse an olive tree or not, or if that's some story somebody inserted into the narrative to make a point. Whether Jesus had a mean streak or not to me is irrelevant concerning this post - I think "Just be nice" could probably apply to Jesus too. And I agree with you that the God of the OT didn't seem to have niceness as His primary concern, but I think that's more reflective of man's interpretation of God during various cultures and times that found violence justified, rather than what any OT God was actually about. I still think the concept is sound - just being nice and treating others as you would have them treat you is a worthy endeavour and if that's all people did in the name of religion then I think the world would be a much better place for it than it is today. Cheers Paul

Fair enough. Thanks, Joseph.

Would your view marry up with Panentheism? Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[1] In panentheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself. In the second formulation, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God,[1] like in the concept of Tzimtzum. Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[2][3]Hasidic Judaism merges the elite ideal of nullification to paradoxical transcendent Divine Panentheism, through intellectual articulation of inner dimensions of Kabbalah, with the populist emphasis on the panentheistic Divine immanence in everything and deeds of kindness.

I certainly do fall into the category of "taught to expect something more profound other than reality itself and the subtle presence of being". I like how you put that. I guess I do expect God to be something other than 'me'. Do I understand you right - are you saying that God could simply be me being alive and the wonder of my life and everything around me? That God is not a 'separate' entity so to speak and is the unseen 'force' that is all we can see/experience?

It's hard for me to describe God as I don't know who/what/where God is or comprises of. As far as I am aware I haven't had any convincing experience or realisation of God. I accept others feel they have but I don't know whether that's because they've had a genuine experience or whether their life experiences and/or their brain hardware/software tells them that. I struggle with understanding that if there was a God then why wouldn't that God reveal itself, share itself, or even point to itself so that we all may revel in that God. But then if God isn't so much an entity as simply our own hearts, then maybe I have experienced God. I feel good when I help somebody - so maybe that is God in me. I feel empathy, sympathy, anger, sadness and a whole realm of other emotions - so maybe that is 'God' somehow. I accept that somehow/somewhere all of 'this' started yet we can't fully explain how that came to be, so for me that does leave a little wriggle room for the existence of something called God. I do wonder if I will ever find out.

I think you'll find many people around like that - I think they just tend to keep a lower profile than evangelicals and/or hard-core Atheists. I myself probably best identify as a Christian Atheist. Christian because Jesus is the character that my culture raised me to identify with when it comes to living a good life and I still consider Him in my thoughts, and Atheist in that I don't think there is a God/Gods. That said, how I can ever establish that as a truth is beyond me so I would always add that disclaimer to my atheism that I just can't ever know for sure. Whilst Jesus may be a role model, I acknowledge that it is more the fact that my culture identified with Christianity therefore I was more exposed to this model. Had I been born into a Buddhist or Islamic culture, I am certain Buddha or Mohammed would most likely be my models. They both, like Jesus, have much to offer.

Doesn't Jesus quote from the Torah, that was formed some several hundreds year before his birth, and which the Documentary Hypothesis suggests is comprised of the JPED sources? I don't understand what differences need to be reconciled.

Welcome Bill, I grew up fundy before rejecting the whole lot at around 19yrs of age. I guess at 40 odd years of age I have been re-attracted to Christianity (to a degree) because I do see some elements that offer something good. I think much has been misinterpeted, misrepresented and blown out of all proprtion concerning Jesus, which is what led me away from God & Christianity in the first place. To a degree I even feel ripped off that I didn't have the choice at 19 yrs of age to hold true to some of those beliefs whilst having the courage to put aside the harmful ones. But we live and learn and I am grateful I have come across this site and all of those authors you have mentioned. I look forward to your participation and thoughts. Cheers Paul

I like that philosophy, Joseph. "Feeling crappy? Then do something nice for somebody!"

To my thinking Dave there will be Christians (and Muslims) who accept others interpretations of how to live morals lives, there'll be some who agree to disagree and allow others to live in peace, and then there will be some who believe their faction's laws are the only one true version of God's laws and so will put down, belittle, harass and exclude the other. I think both can definitely exist when they are in sync (e.g. both laws for morailty prohibit murder) but I think the greyer areas (and probably least important) will probably cause the most disdain (what foods to eat or not eat, how to worship, etc). That said, if Christians and Muslims continue on what I think is a current trend towards acceptance and understanding, maybe we'll end up one day all working toward the same goal of peace and love shown to all.

Soungs good, Annie. I'll take it up again over the weekend. Look forward to any thoughts you and Jonny may care to share.

Haven't heard of 'Derek' but will keep my eyes peeled. Loved The Office (English version). A 'posh moan' - I like that. Somebody else described prayer somewhere as "sorry, sorry, sorry, please, please, please".

Had a great laugh last night when I attended a performance of an English comedian named Ross Noble. He was quite hilarious and interacted brillantly with the audience. Anyway, the subject matter turned to religion and Ross came out with the line about the only religion being needed was "Just Be Nice". "Wouldn't it be nice" he said, "If the Pope and all other religous leaders came out and said Just Be Nice. If you don't want to go to Hell, Just Be Nice". Then he joked about the audience taking his words as enlightening, setting up a Church in his name, asking him to be their religous leader, then making up a bunch of rules about how Ross wants us to live our lives! For many here it's probably no particular revelation that organised religion and even dare I say the cult of Jesus worship, has done anything but encourage others to just be nice to their fellow humans. Gays - can't be nice to them. Unwed mothers - can't be nice to them. How about indigenous savages, strange cultures, drug addicts and alcoholics? The list would be miles long of people who haven't been treated well because religous beliefs have taught many people that there are different castes of humans: The In-group, and then there's the 'others'. Again, no particular revelation here, but wouldn't it be terrific if the ONLY message from religous leaders was "Just Be Nice".

Annie, I sort of put reading it on hold after George's departure from this forum as other interests/committments have taken priority. I would be prepared to recommit to getting through it and discussing, if you would like. Cheers Paul

One of my favourites, Jonny!

Some favourite words of mine happen to be written by Ben Harper in his song Burn One Down - "my choice is what I choose to do, and if I'm causing no harm it shouldn't bother you. Your choice is who you choose to be, and if your causin' no harm then you're alright with me". Welcome to the forum, Sharon. Conversations and debate are popular here, so please feel free to jump in. All the best. Paul

If members of the Catholic Church want their Church to change, they have to do something about it. If they are happy for the status quo to persist, then it will. I'm not a Catholic so it's none of my business what sort of a Church they want, but if I was a Catholic I would like to see women priests allowed.

I would say Pete that it says less about God and more about man, particularly man of that age & culture.