BillM

You bring up some good questions, Mcarans. BTW, welcome to the forum! From my approach, much would depend on how well I know the person and how well I know what they are seeking. It would also depend on how much I know about the paths they are looking into. I would not say that talking about Christianity is wrong, but that how I talked about Christianity is key. For example, for some people, Christianity is about an altar call to get one's sins forgiven in order to secure a place in the afterlife. To me, that is a significant distortion of Jesus' main message. So, in my case, I would consider which teachings of Jesus seem relevant to the person's situation and share them. If the person is open to go deeper, then we can. I would certainly have a concern for the person's well-being, but I no longer believe in the heaven/hell scenario, so the person would, hopefully, know that it is life in the here and now that is mainly at risk. I very much think that doctrine and dogma are not very tools to use to convince people (at least most). I think we respond better to stories than to statements. This is why testimonies are so powerful. And I would share the parts of my journey (or the journeys of others) that might be helpful. But I agree with you that a positive and specific alternative(s) should be presented. Nevertheless, as you know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

I would humbly ask, how are we to know what God's will is? The Bible? The Church? The Koran? How are we to separate what might simply be the inner voices in our heads from those of God? Is there a difference? I have known of couple who refused medical help for their children because they believed God told them to trust him to heal...and the child died. I have also known people who have done extraordinary acts of grace and charity because they believed God told them to do so...and people were blessed. How are we to know God's will? Is there a fairly reliable way to make such a determination? (A small confession: I claimed and told people for years that Jesus lived in my heart. But I finally had to admit that not only could I not do the things the gospels testify of him, but I could certainly not do the "greater works" that he said his followers could do. Therefore, because there is no evidence to my former claim, I no longer make it. So, as I've mentioned in another thread, I have no idea how to recognize God's will from human will or even if there is such a distinction.)

Thank you, Fatherman, for sharing the recent events in your life with me. I try hard to listen to other people’s testimony without judging them (neither the person nor the testimony). Growing up with the theology that God loves each of us personally and the same, I do, of course, wonder why things go the way they do, but I try to refrain from judgment because that is far above my pay grade. Plus I am very reluctant to speak for God or what God would or would not do. My daughter, Moriah’s mother, has interpreted Moriah’s death as some kind of punishment from God upon her life, for some sin she has. Although I don’t hold to that kind of theology, I don’t confront her about it because she is a “Bible-believer” and there are stories in the Bible of God killing babies or ordering their deaths as punishment for sin. She believes that though God allowed Moriah to die for her sin, God will ultimately forgive her when she joins Moriah in heaven someday. Who is to say what the actual reality is? Not me. I can understand, to some extent, the futility that your son felt. But I also know that in the vastness of the universe, there is only one of your son. There was only one Moriah. That makes each of us extremely rare and precious. So for her life to be snuffed through either negligent carelessness of a motorist or through the care-lessness of a God who simply doesn’t care about one human life makes the pain deeper. I, too, went through a time of anger. But, speaking only for myself, I came to see that what I was angry at – a loving, protective Father-God – doesn’t really exist. This god was an idol in my mind. Moriah’s death smashed that idol into tiny bits. There is, IMO, no god watching out for us in the universe. That is why we must be our brother’s keepers and watch out for and care for one another. As I’ve mentioned, I’m not qualified to judge your experience, Fatherman. All I can tell you is that Moriah’s death has caused God to become less real to me. He was no father to me that night, nor since. Yet, I am still drawn to the teachings and person of Christ. Can I be a non-theist (someone who doesn’t believe in a personal, intervening God) and still be a Christian? I do not yet know. But I find something in Jesus and the way he treated others that is unique, special, compelling. But I no longer believe in a (tongue-in-cheek) protective "sky-Daddy." I suspect that Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pastor who died in a German prison camp at the end of WWII, was right when he said that we must learn to live in a world without God. He believed in God, but he believed we must not depend on God. I will, if it’s okay, stick around the forum here at TCPC for a bit. I know that people here are wise and compassionate, and that is helpful. And I know they care enough to listen. That is also helpful. I have no idea where my journey will take me. But I hope it is deeper into the truth of reality.

IMO, Jesus said that his followers would be known by their love. To me, this is compassion, a love that feels with another and works and acts to help where one can. Again IMO, not much intelligence is required to be compassionate. But empathy is. I admit that I am ill-equipped to speak much about intelligence, having only a high school education. But I think there is a big difference between intelligence and wisdom. Intelligence is (put crudely and only in my understanding) how many facts you can learn and hold in your head. Wisdom is the ability to take whatever knowledge and experiences you have and weave them together into an attitude or life-style that benefits not only one's life, but the lives of others. I will pick learning from the wise over learning from the intelligent any day. Besides, I have a lot of trouble understanding the intelligent. I doubt that intelligence always leads to compassion. It can often lead to pride. But wisdom, at its best, leads to life and love. That's what I think Christianity, at its best, also does.

I hope I don't derail this excellent conversation, and I hope I don't get myself side-tracked into past "problems-with-labels" that I have had here before (my problem, no one else's). From my point-of-view, Jesus didn't teach "Christianity" or tell anyone to be a "Christian." He did call people to become his disciples, to learn from him, to even live as he lived. He seemed to seek followers who would learn his Way. Orthodox Christianity tends to define itself based upon the Christian Creeds which mention hardly any of Jesus' teachings in favor of focusing upon his death and resurrection and future return. For orthodox Christianity, becoming a Christian is usually centered on dealing with one's sin problem and one's eternal destination. I'll say no more about that because I'm sure we all know this paradigm. However, if we look at, say, the parable of the Great Judgment in Matthew 25, the crux of the matter is not what people believe about Jesus' death and resurrection, but how they treat one another (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting prisoners, slaking the thirsty, etc.). In this sense, Jesus' followers are not so much known by their faith, but by their fruits. If this has any relevance, then I, personally, would not be so concerned about making Christians out of anybody. But I would encourage people to consider Jesus, his teachings, his way of life, and ask if following him would make us better people, both personally and socially. So I'm not very supportive of "Christianizing" a nation, which has often been imperialism under the guise of religion. But I would be supportive of sharing the teachings of this wisdom teach from Galilee with people and asking them if he and his Way might still be relevant to us and our world today. People of another nation that are already living out Jesus' teachings without really knowing anything about him might be the "sheep of another fold." Who is to say? PS - My post is not intended to offend those who wear the name Christian, simply to suggest that there is a broad range of definitions for the term and what it might mean in our culture and world. Edited for clarification

I, too, don't think our will is "free". I think it is shaped by many different things and influences. I'd agree that we have the ability to make choices. I'd also agree that, using reason, beliefs are more of a response to stimuli than things we choose. What I'm not comfortable with (and this may just be my own ego talking) is the notion of divine determinism, that we are mere puppets on God's stage and that he is pulling all of our strings and moving around the sets for his own amusement. It may well be the case that he is (and the Bible does support this to some extent), but it is not a very comforting notion. What I've come to believe is that *most* Christians live thinking they have "free will" until some big event comes along (marriage, death, pregnancy, parking place at WalMart), and then they invoke the plan of God. Nevertheless, I try to make the best choices I can based upon the data available to me. I screw up a lot of the time.

A couple more random thoughts on this subject. I tend to be rather agnostic these days. I have my beliefs, but there are few things that I claim to know. So I can’t say for sure whether events here on earth happen due to God’s divine plan or due to human free will or some combination thereof. I need to go read the thread on Free Will here. But whereas I can’t really speak of what I know, I can say what I subjectively feel. Maybe most of us who consider ourselves to be progressive have had our views of or understandings of God change over time. Mine certainly did the night Moriah died. That night, there was no Rock-of-Ages there for me. There was no Shelter-in-the-Time-of-Storm, no Friend-that-Sticketh-Closer-Than-a-Brother, no Great-Protector. I was left to look at her mangled face and hold her cold hand all by myself, with the whisper on my lips of, “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" And, yes, over the next few weeks, the “answers” began to trickle in: “God needed another angel in heaven.” “We simply have to entrust these things to our loving Heavenly Father.” “She’s in a better place.” “God’s ways are not our ways.” “She’s in Jesus’ lap now, nothing can ever hurt her again.” As I’ve said, I recognize that people offered these things out of their concern and compassion. Still, none of these answers rang true for me. Those that helped the most were not those who offered answers, but those who cried with us. And, to me, that is what I think we are called to do, to suffer with others, to be close enough to feel their pain as our own. Condolences are, of course, welcome and proper. But I would not have any answers to give. The problem of theodicy is, IMO, unsolvable given the typical Christian view of God. As an agnostic, I question whether God exists, whether God is all-powerful, whether God is all-loving. I would rather live with those questions than to accept the faith position that everything is going according to some divine plan. IMO, if it is, it is not very divine. But that is me where I am. On a side note, I'm exploring Arthur Broadhurst's "Christian Humanism" which focuses on following the ethical and moral teachings of Jesus without a working definition of God. It is an interesting point of view. "Non-theistic Christianity." Hmm...

Thanks, Romansh, for your kind words. I'm sorry for your loss also. To me, it doesn't feel right that we should out-live our children or our grandchildren. But it often happens that way. The question of "Why?" is a haunting one. It haunted me also when I believed God (or fate) controlled everything. But that question is (slowly) fading into the background as I consider and reconsider my response to this special event, this touchstone. I can become bitter...or I can become better. Not moral or spiritual superiority, just a more compassionate person.

The other thing I learned in all of this, gentle people, something of which I was guilty before, is to not drive while texting or being distracted with my eyes off the road. Please don't do it. Texas is one of only four states that don't have a law against texting while driving (although whether the other states actually enforce it is probably debatable). It's not worth it. It can wait. http://www.dentonrc.com/local-news/local-news-headlines/20150919-dangers-of-distraction.ece?ssimg=2443636#ssStory2443637

Fatherman, I appreciate your input also. This has caused me to search my heart deeply as to what my beliefs are and what my values are. I've never felt (or at least never think I did) that my life should be free of suffering. I've even been reluctant to use the word "blessed" because it implies that God might be somehow partial to me and actively working on behalf. But suffering can make us feel alone and singled out, even if that is not the reality of the situation. I recall Jesus crying out on the cross, asking why God had forsaken him. And, as you've mentioned, even if the heavens were silent to his plea, he still forgave those that placed him there. I wonder if he, in those dark hours, saw it all as part of "God's plan of salvation." I doubt it. But I certainly don't know. I try not to be judgmental of other people's faith unless it really seems harmful to me. In that regard, well-meaning Christians are using the language of their faith to try to comfort and console me. And I find myself thankful for their intentions even if it is sometimes painful to hear the clichés. They are good people and intend good. One thing that I have definitely learned: Don't take your loved ones for granted. Tell people how you feel about them. If you have babies (of any age), tell them how much you love them, how much they mean to you, and how you can't imagine life without them. You might just have to.

Joseph, thanks for your condolences. Your post seems spot on to me. I don't know as we have "free" will, either. I think we have will, but, as you say, it is shaped and limited by many things -- some we can control and others that we can't. I have no doubt that the driver of the other vehicle didn't not intend for this to happen. He is 21 with a 3 month old baby and though I am still upset about the accident and what happened, I can't help but feel sorrow that this child will probably lose the presence of a father-figure for quite a few years if the courts have their way. So while we lost our baby, this other baby will lose a father, at least for a while. It is, IMO, simply a tragic situation. Finding the good in it, as Jen has written about, is hard. I doubt I will ever get off this. I don't want to, for it would somehow diminish my love for Moriah if life just went on as if she meant nothing. Life will go on. But it will be...different.

Jen, I appreciate your thoughts and perspective on this, Jen. My journey has been a long and arduous one and I don’t yet know where it will lead. But, yes, when I was a Calvinist, I believed nothing happened apart from God’s will. After all, Jesus did say that a sparrow didn’t fall apart from the will of God (ha ha!). But I’m now in a place, just speaking for myself, where I don’t know if Jesus even existed or said what the Bible claims he said. I don’t even know if I’m a theist anymore. However, if I did believe in God, I would think (or like to think) that God is more of an influence toward the good rather than an all-controlling force or power, a manipulator of events here on earth. That being said, I think your advice to simply let people grieve the way they want to is wise. Though I have no doubt that they care, they say, I believe, what comforts them. For me, given the suffering and death in our world, I find no comfort or common sense in the notion that God is controlling all of this. I do tend to think we have a certain amount of free will subject to the laws of nature. I’m sorry for the loss of your son also. I feels so unfair, but, then, whatever made us think life would be fair, right? Some days I think I’m learning things from all of this. Other days the wind is still knocked out of me. And I guess I struggle with the way some Christians “Romans 8:28” this to death, as if this is an easy and simple thing to deal with if one only has faith.

Hi all. I have a question about notions of God's sovereignty and free will (obviously). Last Christmas Eve, my granddaughter, Moriah, was killed in a car accident on the way to my house. We were all going to celebrate a Candle-lighting service at my church together. Instead, we spent it at the hospital, grieving for this 5-year-old little girl. She was a tornado who could tear my house apart in a matter of minutes...and I loved her for it. I miss her dearly. Most of my friends and family are Christians who say that Moriah's death was part of God's plan, that if God didn't directly cause it according to his will, he at least allowed it. For them, God's sovereignty means that God is "in control", that nothing happens unless God makes it happen. The driver of the vehicle that hit my daughter's car was on his cell phone at the time, video-conferencing. He was going over the speed limit. Moriah died almost instantly. In my opinion, this driver, not God, is the cause of the accident and should be held culpable. He exercised his free will in being a careless driver and that is, therefore, to blame. But, that is me. I don't know how we can have free will or be held responsible for our actions if everything we do is dictated by God. What do you say? Is there a way to harmonize God's sovereignty with our free will?

Another interpretation that may be worthy of consideration, ebs001, is that Jesus is expanding his ministry and message to include the Gentiles, which would have pretty much been a no-no. The Jews, at least those concerned with eschatology, were looking for a conquering Jewish king-messiah. Remember John the Baptist saying that the messiah will burn up the chaff? And I suspect Jesus believes this at first also, saying that he was sent only to the house of Israel. The problem is, according to the text, he started coming into contact with Gentiles, who would certainly have been "sinners", and many of them have more faith than "Israel." Within this interpretation, the older brother would be Israel to whom the covenants and promises and "God's house" (the kingdom) was given. The younger brother might well be Gentiles who, though coming from Adam, were still "God's children." God welcomes them into the kingdom also. The kingdom, seen in this light, is no longer a "Jews only club." Jesus echoes this in Matthew 25 i.e. Gentiles are welcomed into the kingdom. Obviously, this parable can be interpreted in a number of ways. But any way we do it, the question still remains of whether those who think they know God best are compassionate to their fellow brothers and sisters.

Vanlentulum, one other small word of encouragement if I may. My wife's family, though they love my daughter, think she is wrong to transition. They believe that God created her to be a female and, therefore, it is wrong for her to want to change into a male. So they don't have a clue as to the dysphoria that my daughter experiences. Interestingly, we have a niece who was born with some physical birth defects and her parents took every step they could to rectify those defects. So though they may believe that God formed my niece in the womb with defects, they also, because they love her, availed themselves of modern medical resources to enable my niece to have the best life possible. That is what we are doing for our daughter also. I don't walk in her shoes and experience the uncomfortableness that she does, feeling trapped in a body that doesn't feel like home. But because I love her, I want her to have the best life possible. If that means transitioning or transgendering, then so be it. I hope and pray that you, too, will find the support and understanding that you need to move forward, knowing that, yes, this is okay with God and that it is character, not gender, that defines us and our lives.

Vanlentulum, thanks for sharing your story with us. My daughter came out as gay three years ago, which really caused us trouble in the church we were in at the time. They recommended reparative therapy for her to make her straight. We left that church. And then, about six months ago, she told us that she was transgender and wanted to transition. This has been an uncomfortable and emotional ride for us, as she was always our "baby girl." Regardless, we love her for who she is -- male, female, trans, it doesn't matter. We love and appreciate the person she has become and will become. And we know that as he begins his treatments and further operations, he will need our love and support. He will need courage to face this. Personally, I'm not sure how far I can buy into the theology that God individually forms each of us in our mothers' wombs, but I would say that nature exhibits a very wide variety in all things and that this variety is to be celebrated if we are to grow as human beings. "I believe that He gave me this body that is incongruent with my inner self and tasked me with making the two match up." My daughter says almost the same exact thing. I can only imagine her pain and struggle. But I promised her that I would be there during and after the transition. We will find a way. It takes bravery, as you know, to get outside of the box. But that is where life is found. Best wishes on your journey.

Matteoam, the fundamental problem with not taking the Bible for what it says is that once you decide to do that, there is no way to ascertain what it means. Granted, interpretation does try to get at what the text means. But when Christians take the stance, as many do, that the Bible is the very words of God, then for God to leave so much open to interpretation and ambiguity is a bit disturbing, is it not? I have no plans to do so, but if I were to author a book of timeless truths, a book considered to be sacred, a book considered by many to be infallible and inerrant, I would write it as clearly and concisely as I possibly could, so that there would be little room for interpretational error or ambiguity. So what we have in the Christian community is most Christians asserting that the Bible is the Word of God...and hardly any two Christians agree on what it means...but yet all Christians claiming that the Spirit gives them understanding. ??? For me, I would simply say that the fundamentalists are at least honest in their approach to the Bible (they take it for what it says) and that the Bible is wrong on a number of things, rather than try to "save" the Bible or Jesus or God by saying that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. To me, if it is a book that means something different than what it says, it is deceitful. But that is how I see it. If God truly authored a book, I would expect it to be brimming over with truth and goodness and clarity on every page. Perhaps I, as an ex-Chritian, have a warped view of God?

Life's a journey. So it's about change. And I've changed a lot since first coming here. No doubt, more changes are coming. But here's the latest in my life: Am I a Christian? This is a question I've been asking myself a lot these days. Does it even matter whether I call myself a Christian or not? Should I even be concerned with labels? After all, I think I reject most of what Christians believe and what Christianity, as a creedal religion, holds to. I don't believe in a literal 6-day creation, or that God punished the whole world for Adam's sin, or a worldwide flood, or that the conquest of Canaan was moral, or that God gave the 10 Commandments, or in Jesus' virgin birth, most of his miracles, that he had to die in order for God to forgive us, that we are made righteous just by saying a Sinner's Prayer, or that Christians go to heaven while everyone else goes to hell. I don't believe, as Jesus did, that epilepsy is caused by demons or that, as Jesus taught, we should hate our families in order to follow him. And I have very serious doubts about the resurrection, which the apostle Paul, who swears his theology came from Jesus himself, said is absolutely necessary to our faith. But I just don't believe this stuff any longer. I'm tempted to take a pair of scissors to my Bible and remove the things I think are superstitious, immoral, and nonsensical. Can I use the "Jefferson Technique" on so much of the Bible and so much of Christianity, and still consider myself to be a Christian? If anyone was ever a cherry-picker when it comes to the Bible and Christianity, it would be me. Shouldn't I just confess that I am no longer a "believer" and move on to...what? After all, I no longer believe God is going to torment me (or anyone else) for not having all their beliefs right. And why cling to a label that Jesus himself didn't even use? But where else would I hear the teachings about this God-filled man from Nazareth except in the Bible and in Christianity? Why am I so drawn to him, his life, his teachings, his death? Why can't I, as others have, just chalk it all up to childhood fairytales, much like Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, and just wave good-bye to Jesus? Why can't I give up on this simplistic, warm-and-fuzzy theology that all we really need is love? All I know is that I can't give up on love. Life has taught me that. Often the hard way. But then, Christianity is not love. It has taught me that. So I will no longer be a Christian. But I still like Jesus and think he was right about many things.

Oops! I forgot that I am not in agreement with the 8 Points. Deleted post. Sorry, admins! Please delete this, okay?

That's a good story, NORM, it made me laugh. Of course, some of those groups in Heaven neither believe in God or in Heaven, which makes it all that much funnier. And Bishop Spong, one of the leaders of PC, states quite emphatically that God is not a divine being. But this story does illustrate why I am no longer a Christian. Jesus did say, in the gospel of John, that no one comes to the Father except through him...and I no longer believe that. In fact, I don't believe we need a mediator between us and God. See how non-Christian I am? But then, I'm don't agree with Soma that each person is God, either. In my "merely opinion", God is the Creator and we are the creation. We can be indwelt by God, but we never become God. This is where I believe Christianity made a huge mistake, in deifying Jesus of Nazareth and elevating him to Godhood so that he could be worshipped. And the obligatory "in my opinion." Somehow, mysticism has moved from "I experience the reality of God in my life" to "I am God, I am Divine." To me, in my opinion, that's a category mistake...unless a person can do what God can do. All of the above is, of course, just my opinion...just my 2 cents. Worthless, isn't it?

>>I also think that whatever your personal belief (or non-belief) system, if you do not seek to become a positive force for good in human society, then you are, as the writer of the epistles declares; "a noisy gong." And I would agree with you, NORM. Regardless, this is only what *we* think and is, as SteveS55 reminds us, "merely opinion" (i.e. easily brushed aside), and therefore carries no weight to it whatsoever. I once thought this forum was an extension of TCPC.org. But 1) no one from that organization participates here that I am aware of and 2) they can't even spell "community" right on this forum's blurb page. It's like the Spong forum. Does Spong himself participate in his forum? I've never seen him here. That's a shame because I value his work and contributions and would like his take on a couple of subjects. Nevertheless, this forum is much like UUism. That doesn't make it bad. There are many, many UUs out there. There are, obviously, a great number of people who enjoy that approach to religion, spirituality, and philosophy. But the UUA is not honest about their name, for they are neither Unitarian or Universalist. That's my point. We should be honest about who we are and are not. Yes, I know, that's just my opinion.

In my opinion, Progressive Christianity is quickly becoming a form of UU. Though it still wears the name "Christianity", it is open to all beliefs and practices. One of the things I found impressive about the liberal Christianity of the past is that it was creative in finding ways to reinterpret the Bible and the Christian faith in order to often be on the cutting edge of social change, to be able to speak truth to power, much as Jesus did (which, unfortunately, got him hanged). It felt there was a "better way" and often lead the way in issues of justice and making a difference in our world. PC has no prophetic edge to it, IMO. Because it doesn't hold to truth, it doesn't speak truth to power. And it doesn't want to unite in order to make a difference in our world. It, like the UUA, is just a loose association of people who get together to share different points-of-view, but with no vision, no call-to-action, no truth to proclaim, and, IMO, no purpose.

In my experiences here on this forum, I have found Progressive Christianity to be the opposite of dogmatic. Although the 8 Points exist, PC does not say what it means to be a PC. For instance, one can be an atheist and be a Christian here. One can be an agnostic and be a Christian here. There is no agreed-upon consensus of what is and what is not Christian. That determination is left up to the individual as a matter of conscience. This, in a practical way, makes everyone a Christian, no matter what they believe and do or what they don't believe or do. If you say you are a Christian, then you are a Christian, no matter your beliefs or actions. The only no-no is to tell someone they are wrong. That, in PC, is improper netiquette. How not believing in God could be "following Jesus" (Christianity?) is beyond me as it seems to me that God was at the center of his life. So I've found Progressive Christianity to be pretty much just like the Unitarian Universalist Association. The UUA has "progressed" and are no longer Unitarians. They have "progressed" and are no longer Universalists. They are an association of different beliefs, religions, and philosophies whose primary message is that there is no such thing as religious truth or reality. All that is available is opinions and all opinions have equal merit and value. So it was a bit odd for me when I first visited these assemblies and found that they were no longer Unitarian or Universalist. They held onto their old name out of background and tradition. But the way they exist today has little to no ties with their roots. In my opinion, Progressive Christianity is much the same. It has the label "Christianity" but it can and does mean everything...and, therefore, nothing. (BTW, none of this was written from a point of hostility, merely as an observation. But I'm honest enough to admit that my beliefs are no longer Christian.)

No rants or raves today, just summarizing how I see things. It’s my belief that religion or spirituality works best when it helps us to connect with what/who we call God, with ourselves at our deepest level, with others, and with the world in which we live. Why would we want to do this? In the first place, I think it is to enjoy life, to simply appreciate being here and to make the most of what we have, to be in the moment and to experience this connectedness or unity with what is. This is, no doubt, a somewhat selfish motive to be religious or spiritual, but seeing as we are created or evolved as selves, I don’t think we can get around it. In the second place, I think we want to do this in order to help or improve ourselves, others and their situations, and our world. As Rich Mullins once said, “I don’t know if we can have heaven on earth, but we needn’t have a hell here either.” So my sense of religion and spirituality entails both the inward and the outward contexts, trying to keep them somewhat in balance. For me, if I focus too much on the outward, I can become overwhelmed by the pain and suffering in our world, and frustrated that we, as human beings, can’t or won’t do more. If I focus too much on the inward, I do become selfish, caring only about my own wants and needs, my own “bliss”, enjoying my life, but ignoring or oblivious to the needs of others around me. As has been correctly pointed out, I am, by nature, a selfish creature. But I don’t want to be that way and my religion/spirituality helps me with that in challenging me to look beyond myself. I’m certainly not saying that I have found a good way to balance these two contexts of my life yet. Some days I’m quite selfish and other days I can be quite generous. This balance is something I strive for. And, to be honest, I don’t know if or how I will achieve it, if I even can. But perhaps this gives some insight as to why I question religions where the focus is almost entirely on the self, such as getting a guaranteed seat in heaven or achieving some sort of bliss that encourages detachment from the world and its problems. Or I question religions where the focus is almost entirely on the group to the detriment of self. We are selves and there is no denying that. But I think we function best in societies made up of other selves where we care for one another. I think we can and should balance the inner and outer. To me, a transformed heart should lead to hands and feet that help transform our world. In my opinion, we need both. Thanks for listening.

Paul, you ask, "Can't we all just let it be?" Indeed we can. It is commonly attributed to Edmund Burke, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing." And I think this is what Kathy was alluding to in the OP, that some forms of Christianity and the Church are harmful to us and our world. But you're correct, we don't have to tell these people what they do is wrong. We can just let it be. I admire and partially share your one rule/philosophy in life. But it doesn't address what we do when others do cause harm, whether through action or inaction. Just letting it be just doesn't seem right to me. But as Joseph says, "to each his own." And with that, I will just let it be.