GeorgeW

I think that all religions including monotheistic have multiple divine beings (see satan, angels, seraphim, etc). Even Islam which firmly states in its creedal statement that there is one god has angels, satan, jinn. What seems different in the UP, in this respect, is the formal delegation of power to "divine sons." George

Jenell, Yes indeed, class discrimination with its power and abuse is not just a "Southern" issue. In fact, it has been in the headlines recently with the incident involving the man who most likely would have been the president of France, Dominique Strauss-Kahn. A not so dissimilar incident is reported in the Bible with the celebrated King David and Bathsheba. We also have the story of Hagar who ended up in the desert with only a little bread and water for her 'service.' George

Brent, Maybe a way of presenting the UP is in the context of other discussions in addition to making them the topic of discussion. That might demonstrate the quality of the writings and the relevance to our lives and ideas. George

Dutch, There are a number of books and authors that many of us could point to as profound, enlightening, insightful, inspiring, etc. But, we don't view them as 'authoritative' in the sense of uniquely divinely inspired. MLK's speeches are particularly inspiring to many of us, but not many people (anybody?) assert them as 'authoritative' like the Bible, the Qur'an, The Book of Mormon, maybe the UPapers, etc. George

Rivianna, We saw the film last night and I concur with your recommendation. I grew up in the South in a similar social milieu (but a step down the social ladder - more middle class) and I can attest to the authenticity of the attitudes expressed in the film. I have trouble today reconciling these attitudes with some of the otherwise decent, educated, intelligent people who held them. My family was racist (in today's terms), but had a more paternalistic attitude toward African Americans. They did not hate Blacks, but thought they were just not quite our equal. I think these attitudes are testimony to the power of racism that is in us. Also, the profound progress that I have witnessed in my lifetime is testimony to human potential. I could never, as a child, have ever imagined the progress that has been made. George P.S. While I was never a crusader for justice that the main character in the movie was, I knew from very early on that something was wrong. In fact, I got in a little hot water from time to time for not practicing discriminatory behavior. So, I suspect we all have a seed in us that tells us what is right and wrong.

Brent, FWIW, although I don't consider the Qur'an to be authoritative, I do think that the power of the language is part of the explanation for the spread of Islam. And, in part, the authority is maintained through teaching that it is authoritative and in part by the language of the writing itself. (However, this gets lost to a large degree in translation). I would surmise from what you have said that the content of the UPapers is the 'qualitative' feature that convinces you as opposed to (in addition to?) the skilled use of language. George

Brent, Do you consider any other religious writing to be authoritative as well. If not, why not? George

Jenell, The fact that we are so wired does not mean that we will necessarily conclude agency. It means that this is an intuitive, instinctual reaction. We of course, can rationally conclude otherwise. I think it is a strong intuition. In fact, I have personally found it hard to rationally overcome. In spite of the fact that I do not believe there is a god up in the sky dispensing rewards and punishments, when my first wife died at too young an age, I caught myself wondering what I had done to deserve that fate. I knew that she was not deserving, so I wondered what I might have done. My rational mind, said 'nonsense' but my intuition kept saying, 'you must have done something.' BTW, as a child, I too stepped on a water moccasin bare footed. Fortunately, it apparently was sleeping and I scared it as bad as it scared me. I can vividly recall leaping higher than should be physically possible. FWIW, ophidiophobia (fear of snakes) is also a hard wired feature of our brains, a feature we share with monkeys and probably some other mammals. Those who didn't have the gene, didn't jump and didn't live to beget. Those of us with the gene jumped and were fruitful and multiplied descendants with the gene. And, so it goes. George

Random chance. George P.S. our brains are genetically wired through evolution to assume agency and intentionality in whatever occurs. So, it is a natural reaction to assume some divine meaning in these kind of situations.

Joseph, This, I think, is an important question maybe deserving a thread of its own. I think we tend to measure divine fairness against our own personal sense of justice. First, this is neither perfectly consistent from person to person nor from society to society. And maybe more importantly, we tend to view it from an anthropocentric point of view that focuses on us as humans. Evolution, as an example, if viewed, from an individual point of view is very unjust. Those who have the wrong genes, for no reason of their own, just don't make it. But, from a system point of view, it works quite well. So, a cosmic system of justice might be quite different from that of our limited, self focused, perspective. George

Dutch, Good job! George

Bill, I know this is a digression, but differentiation is inherent in language. Imagine trying to communicate with a language structure in which every word can mean everything or anything. So, while this can lead to dualisms and hierarchies of value, it is necessary for meaningful communication. Someone has said that nothing exists as a separate identifiable thing in our world until it is given a name. Sorry again for the digression. George

Scott Atran (In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion) says, "L. Brown (1994, The Human Side of Prayer) found prayer to be a stress-reducing means to deal with the existential anxiety that accompanies uncontrollable events." I think that intercessory prayer is efficacious for this reason as it gives one a sense of doing something about matters over which we otherwise have no control. George

Akhenaten, Welcome. You mention your country (presumably not the U.S). I would be interested to know what country that would be. That would give a little more perspective to your comments. Your nom de PC sounds like it could be Semitic (Hebrew - brother of Naten?). George

Scott, FWIW, Corbett (Religion in America) defines evangelicalism as having these minimal criteria: (1) Salvation only through faith in Jesus Christ, (2) An experience of having a personal conversion, commonly called 'born again,' (3) The importance of missions and evangelism (sharing the message), (4) The truth of inerrancy of Scripture. Under Fundamentalism, she says, "The keystone was and is the inerrancy of Scripture. She doesn't mention the importance of evangelism. But, there seems to be some overlap, particularly with respect to inerrancy of Scripture. Apart from any formal distinction, I agree with you that the term 'fundamentalist' has acquired a negative connotation that 'evangelical' has not. George

Mike, I don't know if a non-material "ultimate reality" exists or not. It could exist, but without the necessary wiring in our brains we would not be able to perceive it (or, some would say, conceive it). Science cannot determine if there is a non-material reality or not. But, it can, I think, eventually explain how our brains are able to perceive/conceive such a thing. George

There is a similar saying in Arabic. It says roughly (but rhyming in Arabic), 'He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know is a fool. He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't know is wise.' George

A little 'oneness' humor that doesn't work out: Sorry for the digression. George

Rabbi, Thanks again. I didn't realize that besulah was a variation of betulah. I had assumed a typo. I think the biblical Hebrew is the latter since it is written with tav. To anyone who knows: What are the Greek words used in Isaiah (in the Septuagint) and in the Gospel stories? Are different Greek words used? If so, are the meanings different? I think it has been established that the Gospel writers referenced the Septuagint. George

Neon, I am inclined to agree with you. There are some whose mindset cannot be changed. But, there may be others who might be influenced by dialog and reason. I think, like most moral issues, we know down deep what is right and wrong, but sometimes need encouragement to do what is right and overcome our worst impulses. In this particular forum, it is true that we would be largely preaching to the choir with a few exceptions who come here to challenge progressive Christianity and are unlikey to be persuaded by reason. But, I see no harm in pointing out the poverty of their position. And, I hate to see bigotry left unchallenged. George

Yes, the word for virgin betulah is clear at Gen. 24:16, "The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin (betulah), whom no man had known . . ." The word in Isaiah 7:14 is 'almah. Isaiah was talking about a young woman and expressing no opinion on whether she had "known a man." If it was important, he would have said so using betulah. George

You guys are suggesting that there is an objective reality about the existence and character of God. But, we have no way of accessing this reality, except as mediated through social, intellectual and psychological means all of which differ from one society and time to another and from person to person. Therefore, our understanding is necessarily relative to our particular social context and personal limitations and experience. And, any claims made about this objective reality are necessarily subjective. George

Presbyterian Church (USA). Shalom, George

My pastor (PCUSA who I don't think is Litvish) has proposed the same thing. He thinks that the prohibition was related to wasted seed. This is why masturbation was also forbidden, i.e. wasting valuable seed. It is not coincidence that the Hebrew word for seed and semen are the same. George

Good points. But, it does make a "wit of sense" if one is selectively using biblical texts to give authority to basic homophobia. I don't think that homophobia is motivated by religious texts, rather religious texts are used to justify it. George