glintofpewter

I had some concerns about the title of this topic. Some might see religion as a mental weakness. In another instance innocent and over zealous praying for the healing of a schizophrenic who was under control triggered an episode and hospital stay.

Of the top my head I I think that interpretation of Leviticus is off base - I have not heard it. I think it might be the result of reading them in one seating. A similar feeling would result from reading the Colorado Revised Criminal Code in one sittng.

Dutch

Myron,

I agree that fear of being caught is a simplistic way to understand the sense that there is Law or Guidance about what is right beyond anyone's possession. Otherwise we would not challenge those with legal or religious anointing by saying, "Wait, that's not right." even when it is not against the law. To call it supernatural is to freeze one stage of development in human experience.

Dutch

Love God, your genes will flourish.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

If you are female and have a nice personality more of your off spring will live.

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/10/for-some-primates-survival-of-th.html

Dutch

I think the count down for the first chapter?, George, should start now. My book order took a wrong turn and I'll have to track it down.

I'm still waiting for my copy

I split off the discussion about The Righteous Mind so it could have a stand alone thread.

Wall Street Synod or the Church of Latter Day Traders.

. .

About the first few minutes.

JCS 1973

The desert Ruins of a temple. then a bus load of hippies show up with all the props and cast for the drama. Those who are to play the rulers dress in black. From the center of a group hug and dance and after a laying on of hands by fellow players Jesus rises up freshly costumed for his role. This is our story (only the hippies' story?) and we will tell it. A story as old as the ruins. Jesus is one of us. Fully human.

JCS 2000

"HATE" and other graffitti about oppression. Malaise, impending threat of armed rebellion and deadly suppression. Storm troopers chase out the riff raff. From a bright light upstage center Jesus emerges and Judas emerges from his shadow. Perhaps too clever it is to suggest light and dark because the relationship is more than two sided.

How does Jesus arrive in our lives? Blessed by the goodness of human hands or in the bright light of unitive experience. the cross shaped matrix of lights represents in some way the beginning and the end. Within the context of the JCS 2000. From this image Jesus comes and into this image Jesus leaves. Instead of from dust to dust, from light to light.

These youtube clips are fuzzy. I may have to set a aside an evening and rent the movie from Amazon.

Dutch

Where freedom of speech violates social responsibilities and encourages or directs harm, discrimination, racism, homophobia, or even sexism, I would say there is a place for somebody to stand up and say, "Hey, we don't accept that in this community. You are free to have your opinion as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else."

Well said, Paul

hate speech (in legal terms not vernacular) and free speech are not the same. To restrict one is not to restrict the other.

Dutch

If I remembered the following material I would not proposed my "What If" as I did

From Thomas Sheehan's The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity (1986--electronic edition 2000)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/thomas_sheehan/firstcoming/three.html

This third part of the book is about that twofold process: the growth of Jesus' reputation and the corresponding undoing of his message.

 

Our objective is to examine the evolution of the Christian faith over its first fifty years, from its earliest formulations to its full-blown interpretation of Jesus as the Son of God. I will trace this evolution via the church's transformation of Jesus' notion of history. We will examine how Jesus' ideal of the present-future disintegrated as his own reputation grew in the decades after his death. Although this evolutionary process was quite complicated, we can distinguish three general phases within a broad spectrum of christological variations:

 

STAGE ONE: THE APOCALYPTIC FUTURE. Whereas Jesus had dissolved the future of Jewish apocalyptic expectations into the presence of that future (the dawning kingdom), Christianity reconstituted the apocalyptic future by recasting Jesus as the future Son of Man.

 

STAGE TWO: THE HEAVENLY PRESENT. Christianity then drew that apocalyptic future back into the present moment by reinterpreting Jesus as the Lord and Christ who was already reigning in heaven.

 

STAGE THREE: THE CHRISTOLOGICAL PAST. Finally the church projected the Lord Jesus into the past history of the cosmos by declaring that he had preexisted from before creation as the savior of the entire world.

Not everyone will agree that Jesus as the Christ represents an undoing of his message and there are other analyses of the development of Christian thought. This development or evolution, I guess might be seen as a braid with many strands since it seems that at any time in history someone is representing each of the various ideas about who Christ is.

Dutch

From wikipedia

Themes of moral transformation through God's redemptive love in Jesus were prevalent among writers in the early church, leading some scholars to claim that the moral influence theory was universally taught in the second and third centuries.

Wikipedia goes on to say that ransom and Christus Victor were thought in connection with moral influence view.

Dutch

I used the words loosely but here is the early development of the ransom version from wikipedia:

The first major theory of the atonement, the ransom theory of atonement originated in the early Church, particularly in the work of Origen. The theory teaches that the death of Christ was a ransom, usually said to have been paid to Satan, in satisfaction of his just claim on the souls of humanity as a result of sin.

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I'll have to think some more about my "What if".

Ideas evolve. Our Thinking changes over time, over thousands of years. Perhaps not as certain biology but change over time with added value (evolution) just the same. Without this process we would not have democracy. (Life and Death of Democracy, John Keane)

Dutch

George,

Yup

Dutch

Why would a God of love require Jesus to be the ultimate blood sacrifice for forgiveness of sins?

What if believing in a substitutionary sacrifice was a necessary step in the evolution of our thinking about Jesus.Maybe if the early Christians had not seen the crucifixion as that important Jesus would not continue to be present for us today. Robert Wright, an atheist/agnostic, says near the end of his book, Evolution of God, that as the evolution of our ideas about God bring us to "God is Love" or universal love then that is something he could believe in.

In evolution the stages of change do not define the current being but were necessarily apart of the development. Not necessarily the only path but belief in sacrifice is a stage in our development. The temptation is to say that the idea was wrong from the beginning but it may not have been. It may been necessary in the development of our ideas today.

Just because one of the small bones in our ear evolved from an extra bone in a alligators jaw does not make us alligators or alligators human. Evolution re-purposes what is into what will become.

Dutch

I hope people increasingly are put off by that wealth and how he earned it. His "earned" income for earning a wage at Bain cqpital was paid to him in such a way that he could claim it as a capital gain and avoid the tax rates wage earnes pay.

The Atlantic offers this conclusion based on common practice.

The I think the logic for paying less tax on capital gains is flawed. They should pay for the government and infrastruce that increases the likely-hood of gain.

Dutch

A study guide for the Phoenix Affirmations available at the mothership.

http://progressivechristianity.org/phoenix-affirmations-study-guide/

I don't have a problem with Romney's money to the LDS church. They DO help people in need. Here in Colorado we worked with a Mormon elder here to get aid for a woman we knew was having problems in California. She was Mormon but not connected at the time of her need.

In PCUSA 9/16 was Seminary Sunday. Would there be a complaint if most of my giving was to Presbyterian Seminaries?

Dutch

Annie,

Here is a link to a new name that might appeal to you: convergence.

http://brimfilled.blogspot.com/2012/07/convergence.html?m=1

I think rivanna shared this link in the 12 affirmations thread.

Dutch

Here are two versions. Open a channel and click "Play All" Sit back and watch the movie

Jesus Christ Superstar 2000 Parts 1-20

Jesus Christ Superstar 1973 Parts 1-16

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBB3B1692EAFD64FE&feature=plcp

Comment as you need. Be sure to name the scene or song or part on which you are commenting.

Dutch

A good place to start, Paul, George.

Sept 26 guarantees amazon.

It has a first shall be last and the last shall be first theme which is consistent with other teachings by Jesus.

The passage is not literal.

It sees the world as a duality. I don't think the world is best represented as a battle between good and evil, heaven and hell. I think of Hell as a Zoasterian souvenir brought back from captivity, an interesting trinket.

It only appears in Luke. Luke is the gospel writer who sees the Cross as substitionary sacrifice. Usually this requires heaven and hell. Something to be saved from and for in the afterlife. I am agnostic about the afterlife and think it has little importance for this life.

I believe the writer may have had a rich context in mind that is invisible to us, which, from what I see in Wikipedia, does not involve an actual hell.

This is quite interesting

http://en.wikipedia....man_and_Lazarus

I think it was John Calvin who said sin is self idolatry, a excellent definition. In thinking about a road to wholeness I don't see hell anywhere. Hurt, harm, broken relationships - but to label any of them as HELL is not helpful except in literature and personal accounts, perhaps.

In agreement with your Topic Title is Sam Keen who has said that you can only rise in correspondence to how far you have been down.

http://fora.tv/2010/03/11/Sam_Keen_In_The_Absence_of_God

http://samkeen.com/

Dutch

Hell doesn't exist. Somedays I am tired of making it a metaphor.

That a law is difficult to administer is not an argument against the fact that it is a fair and just law.