glintofpewter

Dusk,

By fundamentalist do you mean a sect which would be against conventional medical practice? Otherwise, maybe the comradeship will be a blessing.

Ron

This is the right question, I think, for evaluating his situation. A small group of fundamentalists, who had a social connection with an acquaintance, laid hands on him for healing. This triggered another schizophrenic episode and commitment for about 4 weeks.

If only they had just continued being friends providing structure and social contact.

Not all acts of kindness lead to wholeness.

Dutch

My Christmas is complete each year when I see this

Too Hot to Handel

The Bible is a discussion not an instruction manual.

Dutch

In Colorado, which has closed the gun show loop hole, arrests for domestic violence, misdeamnor or felony, some assault charges, multiple DUIs, drug activities, and having been a resident in any psychiatric ward or institution will result in denial for purchasing a gun. Ex-felons may not purchase or possess a weapon.

Could there be other ways beside criminal justice events to build records that would point to people who are at more risk than just being young and male?

In Colorado the State Patrol accepts text mesaages to report road rage behavior. When a driver gets several over a period of time they begin to look more closely at that car. What if someplace would accept texts about an individual's behavior and at some critical point law enforcement might say, "That's interesting. Let's take a closer look."

What if one of those reasons for reporting is harassment on the job. The killer here had been fired a few weeks earlier. Personally I think charges of harassment or stalking are good reasons for denying gun purchases and even gun possession. If police were notified and had taken an interest, maybe just expressed their sympathy for the loss of a job, the killer might have had second thoughts. What if the company reported somewhere that they had terminated someone for harassment.

Person of interest in slaying of bank employee found dead in his home

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22267573/woman-fatally-shot-at-greenwood-village-apartments

Dutch

I'm not done thinking about the mass kilings and whether there are any workable solutions which would improve the situation. I do have my arguments but will put them aside. I also have doubts that there will be any really useful results in the political discussions and legislative actions. There is little agreement about the way forward and almost no collective will to accomplish any thing that will take work, commitment and sacrifice.

But forward...

Not my favorite opinionator, Charles Krauthammer, sees that solutions may be sought in three areas:

The Weapon,

The Killer, and

the Culture.

The roots of mass murder

http://www.washingto...9029_story.html

The NRA is suggesting a fourth area: the Target.

I am starting four topics for brainstorming about solutions. Please be specific. "Stricter gun laws" and "better mental health delivery systems" and "less violence in media" are not specific.

Under brainstorming rules you cannot attack another's idea. Also you cannot say it won't work because I already said it in the first paragraph above. You can ask questions for clarifications or to investigate intended and un-intended consequences.

THE TARGET

If you don't think that changes regarding the Target (schools, malls, etc.) offer a solution please do not post here.

Dutch

I'm not done thinking about the mass kilings and whether there are any workable solutions which would improve the situation. I do have my arguments but will put them aside. I also have doubts that there will be any really useful results in the political discussions and legislative actions. There is little agreement about the way forward and almost no collective will to accomplish any thing that will take work, commitment and sacrifice.

But forward...

Not my favorite opinionator, Charles Krauthammer, sees that solutions may be sought in three areas:

The Weapon,

The Killer, and

the Culture.

The roots of mass murder

http://www.washingto...9029_story.html

The NRA is suggesting a fourth area: the Target.

I am starting four topics for brainstorming about solutions. Please be specific. "Stricter gun laws" and "better mental health delivery systems" and "less violence in media" are not specific.

Under brainstorming rules you cannot attack another's idea. Also you cannot say it won't work because I already said it in the first paragraph above. You can ask questions for clarifications or to investigate intended and un-intended consequences.

THE CULTURE

Krauhammer says "we live in an entertainment culture soaked in ... violence". Is "entertainment" the only element in our culture that should be addressed?

Dutch

I'm not done thinking about the mass kilings and whether there are any workable solutions which would improve the situation. I do have my arguments but will put them aside. I also have doubts that there will be any really useful results in the political discussions and legislative actions. There is little agreement about the way forward and almost no collective will to accomplish any thing that will take work, commitment and sacrifice.

But forward...

Not my favorite opinionator, Charles Krauthammer, sees that solutions may be sought in three areas:

The Weapon,

The Killer, and

the Culture.

The roots of mass murder

http://www.washingto...9029_story.html

The NRA suggests there is a fourth: The Target

Krauthammer:

But there’s a cost. Gun control impinges upon the Second Amendment; involuntary commitment impinges upon the liberty clause of the Fifth Amendment; curbing “entertainment” violence impinges upon First Amendment free speech.

 

That’s a lot of impingement, a lot of amendments. But there’s no free lunch. Increasing public safety almost always means restricting liberties.

I am starting four topics for brainstorming about solutions. Please be specific. "Stricter gun laws" and "better mental health delivery systems" and "less violence in media" are not specific.

Under brainstorming rules you cannot attack another's idea. Also you cannot say it won't work because I already said it in the first paragraph above. You can ask questions for clarifications or to investigate intended and un-intended consequences.

THE KILLER

Most shooters are relatively young white males who are loners. There are many such. How do we narrow the group to discover who is most likely to be the next shooter? How do we prevent anyone from becoming a shooter?

Mass Shootings: Maybe What We Need Is a Better Mental-Health Policy

http://www.motherjon...-mental-illness

After Aurora, Questions About Mass Murder and Mental Illness

http://healthland.ti...re-and-disease/

U.S. mentally ill and their families face barriers to care

http://mobile.reuter...121229?irpc=986

Dutch

I'm not done thinking about the mass kilings and whether there are any workable solutions which would improve the situation. I do have my arguments but will put them aside. I also have doubts that there will be any really useful results in the political discussions and legislative actions. There is little agreement about the way forward and almost no collective will to accomplish any thing that will take work, commitment and sacrifice.

But forward...

Not my favorite opinionator, Charles Krauthammer, sees that solutions may be sought in three areas:

1. The Weapon,
   
2. The Killer, and
   
3. the Culture.
   

The roots of mass murder

http://www.washingto...9029_story.html

The NRA suggests there is a fourth: The Target

Krauthammer:

But there’s a cost. Gun control impinges upon the Second Amendment; involuntary commitment impinges upon the liberty clause of the Fifth Amendment; curbing “entertainment” violence impinges upon First Amendment free speech.

 

That’s a lot of impingement, a lot of amendments. But there’s no free lunch. Increasing public safety almost always means restricting liberties.

I am starting four topics for brainstorming about solutions. Please be specific. "Stricter gun laws" and "better mental health delivery systems" and "less violence in media" are not specific.

Under brainstorming rules you cannot attack another's idea. Also you cannot say it won't work because I already said it in the first paragraph above. You can ask questions for clarifications or to investigate intended and un-intended consequences.

THE WEAPON

Before you call for bans of specific weapons or ammo read this. I apologize for the name calling and inflammatory language. If you think this article presents a solution flesh it out.

A Proven Way to End the Gun Slaughter: Will We Fight For it?

http://www.huffingto..._b_2341815.html

Dutch

Why is the nation of Australia able to reduce gun related violence through regulation yet the U.S is unable to?

------------------------------

Probably should wait for PaulS but it is my understanding that they bought back guns and took them off the streets and out of homes. The swiss cheese assault rifle ban in the US in the 1990s did not touch the 1 million in possession and circulation. Neither will any ban we pass this year. As long as possession is not illegal the ban will have little effect I think.

Dutch

I think giving up guns as a self sacrifice for a safer society is a good way to look at it.

it has been suggested that one reason for the disinterest in private gun ownership in Europe was two world wars within 25 years.

Looking at a map of gun ownership by state suggests that in America the

civil war is not over and a fear of the tyranny of the Federal government is alive and well.

These are not sufficient causes but I think it is worthwhile to consider them as contributing causes.

Dutch

Maybe the NRA is just taking position as far away from the center as possible at the beginning of the compromising. Oh, if only. Armed guards at school? Yes, at Columbine. It did not stop the killing. Here is a Facebook entry by my son, Chad. There is a time when you need armed guards and there is a time when you don't.

I am a gun owner and an NRA certified instructor.

 

I am not, and never have been, an NRA member. They do not speak for me. And if the world they envision requires armed guards for safety, I want no part of it.

 

I've been in several places where the presence of armed guards made me feel secure. I remember Christmas Eve services in Al Faw Palace, Baghdad, 2007, in particular, when I looked up and saw Tongan Soldiers on guard in the upper balcony, watching over us. It was as close as I'll ever come to seeing an Angel while I'm alive, and it definitely made me feel safe and secure.

 

But that is not what I want at home. I don't want to feel like I need an armed guard at school, or church, or at the grocery store. I don't want to have to check my bags and show my ID when I walk into the chow hall/restaurant. I don't want to have to park my bicycle a few dozen yards from the building because you can fit a couple kilos of explosives in a bike frame.

 

I refuse to believe that the future of humanity depends on us being ready to shoot each other.

Dutch

Dutch,

 

Yes, most definitely. Gun control is not banning weapons, it is better control and enforcement before and after purchase.

Joseph

How exactly would better enforcement reduce the chances that the Sandy Hook shooter or the Aurora theater shooter could obtain their weapons?

In both cases the guns were purchased legally. Should households with mentally ill residents not be allowed to own guns?

Dutch

Joseph,

Do you think anything can be done regarding gun control that will contribute to a decrease in mass killings? I feel that you don't.

Dutch

-----rant---

__________________

Jospeh

Point taken

The fewer of the heavy drugs and assault rifles in America the safer we all will be.

Dutch

Exactly how will banning hand guns be anymore effective in reducing their availability and crime than banning drugs has prevented the availability and use of illegal drugs and related crimes?

--------------------------------

This a false or irrelevant analogy. It implies that owning guns is an addiction and that individual discharge of a gun is no more dangerous than smoking pot.

Why isn't the wearing of seat belts or the elimination of DDT the correct analogy?

Dutch

Currently the news is that the mother of the Sandy Hook shooter wanted to increase care for him. It seems unclear whether this meant forced commitment or more visits to the therapist. He lost his temper, grabbed the nearest assault rifle and shot her. If this is an accurate account it is hard for me to imagine a mental health system that would have stopped the shooter. I can imagine a better outcome if people who lived in the same household as a mentally ill person were prohibited from having a gun in the house. AND I can imagine a better outcome if POSSESSION of an assault gun were illegal. The weapon would not be there.

Mother Jones says that many shooters showed signs of possible mental illness before their killing. But what laws will be written to make it easier to force someone to be diagnosed and to undergo treatment. Of the 62 shootings MJ looked at 80% of the guns had been purchased legally. In these cases what tips the scale way before any other factor is the availability of guns. If the guns are handy it is the gun that turns a temper tantrum into a mass killing. The Aurora shooter I think had all his weapons before anyone on campus thought about reporting their concerns. We need to focus on making illegal the possession of assault rifles, semiautomatic handguns, and clips holding more that 10

If we have to spend money to improve the mental system of our communities that will help but the mentally ill people are not the weak people that need help so we will feel safe. A country that will not ban these weapons is the weak one. We make our world unsafe.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

I think I am finished with this now redundant, serial rant.

Dutch

Young white males who are loners. That is not a small enough group. I have heard about building up a risk assessment profile on individuals who come to someone's attention. Although the Sandy Hook shooter was mentally afflicted. other than incarceration what would the best mental health services have done. I do believe that we can be smarter managing the risks but the benefits will be minimal in preventing deaths until there are fewer guns. Our mental health services will improve and that is a very good. Maybe in Aurora services would be provided to someone before they run afoul of the law instead of the current threshold - arrest.

Without review here a list of mass killings (4 or more dead I think) since Columbine. Which ones would have been stopped by state of the art mental health services?

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1337221/a-timeline-of-mass-shootings-in-the-us-since-columbine/?mobile=nc

Dutch

To continue to focus on the mentally ill continues the hustoric tradition of using control out of the hands of the lessor people. Blacks, irish,etc.

It is a distraction and allows us to think we are doing something that will make us feel safer. Rather than putting our energy into passing a law making POSSESSION of assault rifles illegal and tightening reasons for being able to own a gun. That would keep guns out of the hands of normal people.

A swiss cheese aslt rifle ban - like the last one which would not necessarily have included the gun used at Sandy Hoop - is a sham and will have no discernable effect on murder and suicides thus proving gun rights proponents right.

Paul,

Thank you for all the statistics you gathered.

Dutch

There is something quite conclusive about a gun to the head

-----------------------------

Actually not so much. Gun to the head more often fails than gun to the heart. My brother did it this way. There is less chance of failure.

Men are said to commit suicide because they can't see a way out of their problems. Certainly that was my brother's case. My brother's mental illness was not committing suicide but the 20 years leading up to it. His suicide was a rational act.

I go on about this I guess because we should not jump to easy answers about a suicider's state of mind.

No one would have hesitated to sell him a gun. If a gun were not available he would have succeeded another way.

I would expect the statistics for suicide to go down with fewer guns available since other methods have a higher failure rate. But I think gun control will not be as successful in America. It will take decades for the one million assault weapons in the country to become useless. Would we ever make possession of aslt guns and large clips illegal (not just the sale or manufacture) we might have chance but there is not the will to do that. We have enthroned individual freedoms to our detriment.

We will free safer if more services are provided for those who a mental illness - and I am glad for that - and record of their diagnosis and treatment will be added to the Colo Criminal Info Center database but until access to guns is limited for all people then this is a distraction. The Aurora shooter would not have been tagged.

Belcher, of the Kansas Chiefs, texted a friend that he was so frustrated with his wife/girlfriend? That he might kill her. A month later a murder-suicide. What freedom are we willing to give up so that he would have been forcibly referred to therapies until he was neither a danger to himself or to others.

I am glad mental health services will improve in Colorado. But I continue to think that there will be fewer homicides and suicides only if there are fewer guns.

Dutch

I think the focus on the mentally ill is a distraction. We can restrict 'their' access to guns only by giving up some of our freedoms. Who gets to decide that you are mentally ill?

Dutch

For the other side:

Disarming the Myths Promoted By the Gun Control Lobby (headline is misleading)

A widely-known study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz in the 1990s found that there were somewhere between 830,000 and 2.45 million U.S. defensive gun uses annually. A National Crime Victimization Study (NCVS) which asked victims if they had used a gun in self-defense found that about 108,000 each year had done so. A big problem with the NCVS line of survey reasoning, however, is that it only includes those uses where a citizen kills a criminal, not when one is only wounded, is held by the intended victim until police arrive, or when brandishing a gun caused a criminal to flee.

There are other studies quoted in support of the same point in this article. It's from Forbes so I tend to trust the citations more. I know of two such situations. One published one not. We can't figure out why there have been 2-3 attempts at a Check Cashing business because each time the robbery attempt ends with the owner pulling a gun and shooting. It should be pointed out that he did not need an automatic assault weapon to do this. The other instance is hearsay.

Is the question, "Are you willing to take the risk that you will be the victim of an attack that you could have fended off with a gun so that the number of guns in the country are reduced tragedies like Sandy Hook are less likely to happen? " IF the study cited by the Forbes article is correct then it seems we are risking our personal safety - providing we are competent in our use of a weapon - for the greater good.

Does anyone have statistics about robberies and burglaries in the UK - are they higher than in the US?) - and Australia (after the Howard gun control laws)? - Did they increase even though the murder rate went down in the years afterward. The related statistic I saw was that the number of mass killings went to none I think. Is that the greater good?

Dutch

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon-updated/

Why would you not conclude that decreasing the availbilty of weapons might lead to decrease in the murder rate?

Dutch

When the assault gun ban was in effect 1994-2004 did many more of us die because we couldn't purchase such a weapon to defend ourselves with?

what will you choose to use to protect them against such or will you do nothing?

Thanks,

Joseph

-----------------------------

When I am creating the world I want to live in - a world where fewer guns are available -I will take that risk.

I think Jesus invites us to take that kind of risk.

Dutch

Is this thread the 21st century version of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance with its discussion of kindles and random mystical clippings. (I don't remember the book well and could be wrong.)