glintofpewter

There are significant issues but they will rarely replace the rhetoric. But I'm simple. I will not be voting for a Republican presidential candidate. In my life time.

I haven't been around because moving in together with my wife after our separation seemed to take all my energy, physical and emotional. She was moved in on August 20th. Since then I have taken a load of my stuff each day after work.New bed we can both sleep in arrives Thurs. Most of Diane's stuff has found a home so we will move my furniture Friday. At last I will be home - and have a former apartment that needs lots of cleaning! Any volunteers?

Dutch

When I was in Helena for my daughter's wedding we attended the UCC church.The pastor, who was responding to a request from the congregation, preached on heaven. She was courageous to take this on. She acknowledged that there were many stories of near death experiences and accepted them as evidence. Observing that these experiences were of reunions which involved only a few people of recent acquaintance and not multitudes, she suggested that this happened immediately after death, but was temporary. After that she felt that no one could know. At least she couldn't know This was an interesting way to speak publicly about heaven.

dutch

I thought one had judgments - good food and bad food - about what it was eating and the other did not.

The Sun, a non-profit ad free magazine. Issues are often centered around one topic broadly defined

www.thesunmagazine.org

We have received the Sept 2012 Issue in the mail.

Maybe mine is a question best answered with mystery. My first reaction was an affirmation. But I wonder, in light of other conversations here how this still holds true. For instance, is it silly to test this by inserting into the following:

What is it about God that makes me uncomfortable? Can I learn something about myself? Does God represent my anima or shadow?

Dutch

I'll lift you up.

Dutch

And sometimes it's the very otherness of a stranger, someone who doesn't belong to our ethnic or ideological or religious group, . . . that can repel us initially, but which can jerk us out of our habitual selfishness, . . .and give us intonations of that sacred otherness, which is God.

What does this mean?

You could probably list the strangers that are pictured: four foreign cultures (one perhaps an immigrant), a poor African-American woman, a black girl who seems to be learning English as a second language looking shyly up to the camera, a biker guy, and a homeless person. What is missing is a religious fundamentalist and a stereotypical politician, among others

What intonations of that sacred otherness would a relationship with any these give us?

Dutch

True happiness, we are told, consists in getting out of one's self; but the point is not only to get out - you must stay out; and to stay out you must have some absorbing errand.

Henry James, Roderick Hudson, in Sun Magazine, Sept 2012

Neon, agreed on most all accounts. So, an atheist cannot be a Christian under any circumstance? Correct? But an atheist can follow the commandments of Jesus? Correct?

Vridar,

First, I think that people get to choose their own labels. They might seem idiosyncratic although I think don't think a Christian atheist is. I believe more than a few Christians sense or believe that God does not intervene or that God is not omni-potent, etc but they do not change what they say about God because that would separate them from their social network provided by the church. Many Christians in Bible studies I participated in, when pressed to articulate their understandings of God, will rest on "God is love" as sufficient and the most satisfying statement. They find that God inhabits the golden rule. Again, by their actions the world knows Christians. The Western world is infatuated with propositions of belief and so the church has many such lists which divide as much as unite people and therefore we should be suspicious of them.

When Interfaith Alliances are formed frequently it is "God is love" and the golden rule that allow them to tear down the fences built by credal propositions. It is the "golden rule" that unites.and IMO it is love and compassion, our highest values, that broaden the understanding of who is neighbor and how to love ourselves. As core values I can think nothing higher to be lifted up to be our guide and, if the goal of salvation is for us to be restored, made whole, then I can think of nothing else that can be as effective. No propositions about God can do the job.

Dutch

I often use a potential member's email address to screen for phishing and spammers. Some of us - our emails can be found in number of places. Leavinig our email address out on the web makes a target for phishing and spam. You might check your own email. Consider not using sites that leave your email address out in the open

Dutch

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. excerpts from the abstract

Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, Lee RK, Banton JG. Source Center for Injury Control, Rollins School of Public Health, Emory University, Atlanta, GA, USA.

Abstract

We reviewed the police, medical examiner, emergency medical service, emergency department, and hospital records of all fatal and nonfatal shootings in three U.S. cities: Memphis, Tennessee; Seattle, Washington; and Galveston, Texas.

RESULTS:

For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.

CONCLUSIONS:

Guns kept in homes are more likely to be involved in a fatal or nonfatal accidental shooting, criminal assault, or suicide attempt than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

How many deaths are the result of guns in the home?

How many home invasions are stopped by a homeowner with a gun? References please.

Dutch

What you mean to say is that most people don't know how to "access" those dreams. I've learned how, and have total recall of my dreams. Sometimes, I can even direct them.

I know one can direct them.

How do you know you have total recall? Susan Blackmore, I think, would say that total recall, as stream of consciousness (awareness), does not happen. It is illusive.

The Unknown

As we know,

There are known knowns.

There are things we know we know.

We also know

There are known unknowns.

That is to say

We know there are some things

We do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns,

The ones we don't know

We don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing

See you in my/your dreams.

Dutch

Terry,

I look forward to our conversations. Welcome.

Dutch

Thought the below article and all the other links in it about progressive Christianity would make for some interesting discussion.

Ray,

Why don't you start another topic on the three great loves or the 12 affirmations. The 12 affirmations might be more interesting because we have had a lot of discussion recently about whether an atheist can be a Christian.

Dutch

Folks,

 

He concludes that a soul, independent of the body, would be impossible. Therefore, what we are imagining as a soul is really the mind. When the body dies, the mind ceases functioning and consciousness ceases.

 

NORM

I think the mind and body are interdependent so the mind not functioning when the body isn't is not a surprise. I think the mind in its complexity disperses after death as the entities, atoms and molecules disperse. There is a mental aspect, internal relations, connecting all such entities.

Dutch

Dutch,

 

i think the self is an illusion only in the sense that it is not what it appears to be on the surface. I may experience the self as real but still is it not an erroneous perception of reality if i confuse my self with the story which is mostly the case? In the moment, the story disappears. I play a role here but am i that role (self) or the one experiencing the role and connected to the whole? To reside in self , separation exists. To reside in ones being, there appears nothing separate. Is there a difference? I think to reside in ones being, it doesn't matter as real and illusion lose any separation.

 

Joseph

Joseph,

I like the distinctions you make between self and being, role and experiencing.

Dutch

I think Blackmore, in a reductive process, sees that the existence of the self is an illusion. Both in her study of Zen and her scientific research.

That's not what I experience. Our mental self is not an illusion however fleeting, void of form occasionally, or difficult to master. the illusion which separates us from a rich life is the illusion that our self, our ego is separate from the rest of universe - its creatures and its worlds. For a brief moment my self, both material and mental or external and internal, gathers as a flock of birds and when I die the flock vanishes.

It is not an illusion that this mental self has evolved.

Dutch

I understand that Blackmore's scientific work is part of the debate among materialists, dualists and panexperientialists over the mind/body problem and that her position is probably closest to the materialist view. That the mind is wholly caused by the biochemical events in the brain.

Welcome,

I look forward to our conversations here.

Dutch

Dutch

How else are we going to examine our consciousness?

...

At the very least this experience tells me that consciousness is not what it seems.

Susan Blackmore has examined many human experiences scientifically to reveal that these experiences do not have the unity or permanence or reliability that we might claim in our stories.I understand that effort and appreciate the science.Susan believes that non-dualism is the best way to understand the universe and our experience of it and our place in it. I agree.

But what are we studying when we study consciousness? Are we asking when are we most aware of the self, of ego? Is consciousness when we are most aware of ourselves as separate from the universe, a necessary state of mind, much of the time? Asking our selves, "Am I conscious now?" Is consciousness when we are most aware of ourselves and our world? Or is consciousness when we are in the 'zone' and our body and mind working at a level below conscious awareness and control? As Olympic athletes often are? As a platoon of soldiers might experience? Again at a level below consciousness. Or is consciousness when we have a unitive experience? Again when we are most unaware of self? Which of these is the highest experience of consciousness?

Are we asking if our sense of unified continuous mental identity of self can be validated scientifically? Of course the answer is no.

Are we asking if I consciously ran the stop sign? Not often.

I don't understand the importance of showing that consciousness is not what it seems. I guess I haven't been in that field of study and don't know the specialized meaning that the word has.

Dutch

 

either all or nothing, eh? Actually I agree. that sort of insistence led me here. As for the Blackmore essay - it's missing something IMO. Perhaps she is careless with the word consciousness.

 

Dutch

Incomplete? Almost by definition. I suspect the years of meditation and introspection cannot be crammed into such a short essay.

But her central observation I find to be true for myself. And you Dutch?

Most of the time I am unconscious and inattentive. Mine was a rash judgmental statement but yes I disagree with the way in which she uses the term. Consciousness is how we ready ourselves for a series of moments so that our will can be free to make a choice and that we can pay attention as we experience the flow of the series of moments.

She adds to this essay ten other Zen questions which help one to realize the there is ultimately no dualism. I agree with that goal.

from her essay although there are others that more clearly show the mind games which have no place in experiencing "now". Talking about the experiencing is at least one abstract step away from the experience.

Some tell me they put stickers all over their house: “Are you conscious?” on the front door; “Am I conscious now?” on the toaster; “Conscious?” on the kettle; “Are you sure you’re conscious now?” on the pillow. Others get into pairs so that they can keep reminding each other – “Are you conscious now?”. Some take to special times and places; they ask the question every time they go to the loo, or always ask the question when going to bed, or always remember when they have a drink or food. Sometimes these tricks work; sometimes they don’t.

Elsewhere she asks the question "what was I conscious before now".doesn't all this thinking burden the moment unnecessarily. In this passage I believe that the better question is "am I attending and experiencing the moment?" What sensory stimulation am I aware of. Actually the better question is no question. Hushain(sp?) Bolt was asked about his mental state as he gets ready to once again prove he is the fastest human. I don't think the reporter anticipated his answer. I relax, he said. That, I think is preparing for experiencing the moment in its fullest rather than asking the question over and over again.

Perhaps our disagreement will be seen as semantics and methods.

Dutch

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So, yes, I question what kind of "Christianity" this is where it cost us nothing and leaves us and our country/culture unchanged. But that is another subject in which I could get myself into trouble in short order.

I think many sermons every Sunday are about this.

Luke 11:20 NIV

But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.

If we think that "demons" needs a modern understanding why would we not think the same about human understanding of "God"?