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PaulS

The Purpose of Life

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2 hours ago, PaulS said:

Again, I don't think that was the version of the Kingdom that Jesus was preaching but rather it became a later interpretation of his words.

It goes back to the Apostolic fathers and is still standard Orthodox teaching, so it's about as early as one can get.

 

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4 hours ago, Burl said:

It goes back to the Apostolic fathers and is still standard Orthodox teaching, so it's about as early as one can get.

 

The interpretation of the event reported as Pentecost as being the coming of the God's Kingdom that Jesus preached, is open to interpretation.  Apostolic Fathers - which ones in particular are you referring to that support this notion?

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5 hours ago, JosephM said:

Well, i won't argue with the scholars such as Erhman but it seems to me, he holds that view  because his intellectualism (the theory that knowledge is wholly or mainly derived from pure reason; rationalism) has clouded his spiritual viewing which is pretty understandable to me when one puts more weight on study than meditation.  🙂

Quite possibly Joseph, and there is a lot of good things to be said for meditation in a number of ways, but I'm not sure relying on it for a historical understanding of the world is a reliable one. :)

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6 hours ago, PaulS said:

Quite possibly Joseph, and there is a lot of good things to be said for meditation in a number of ways, but I'm not sure relying on it for a historical understanding of the world is a reliable one. :)

On the contrary, I am almost certain from study that our historical understanding is most seriously flawed. Society writes history and there is a certain uncertainty with all of history as one can easily see just from history itself whether it be American history or ancient history. Besides, we were speaking of a spiritual matter according to the words of Jesus as historically in the Bible he makes clear in numerous places that his words are spirit and they are truth and that his kingdom is not of this world. 🙂

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7 hours ago, PaulS said:

The interpretation of the event reported as Pentecost as being the coming of the God's Kingdom that Jesus preached, is open to interpretation.  Apostolic Fathers - which ones in particular are you referring to that support this notion?

Start here if you are seriously interested in the subject.  

 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/kuyper/holy_spirit.vi.vii.i.html?highlight=pentecost#highlight

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10 hours ago, JosephM said:

Besides, we were speaking of a spiritual matter according to the words of Jesus as historically in the Bible he makes clear in numerous places that his words are spirit and they are truth and that his kingdom is not of this world. 🙂

It's also clear in numerous places that Jesus' words are about a very real and physical Kingdom and not just one of spirit, that his Kingdom is coming and it will be very much of this world when it gets here and God puts Israel in charge.  But I'm sure we agree the historicity of what Jesus actually ever said is open to debate.

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9 hours ago, Burl said:

Start here if you are seriously interested in the subject.  

 http://www.ccel.org/ccel/kuyper/holy_spirit.vi.vii.i.html?highlight=pentecost#highlight

Thanks for the read Burl.  Again, I find the explanation of 'prophecy fulfilled' as lacking and more a case of the first Christians trying to link Jesus to statements from their scriptures.

But again, which apostolic fathers in particular were you referring to when you said "It goes back to the Apostolic fathers and is still standard Orthodox teaching, so it's about as early as one can get."

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25 minutes ago, PaulS said:

It's also clear in numerous places that Jesus' words are about a very real and physical Kingdom and not just one of spirit, that his Kingdom is coming and it will be very much of this world when it gets here and God puts Israel in charge.  But I'm sure we agree the historicity of what Jesus actually ever said is open to debate.

Paul,

Those instances to me are the take of other men. It seems to me Jesus knew better. I agree with you it is most likely impossible to know what Jesus really said. But , it is not impossible to experience the spiritual kingdom he pointed to and the physical kingdom is a no brainer. I think we both see with our physical eyes it doesn't exist. My conclusion is if he truly was an enlightened being then those other places you speak of, he never said as they are not verifiable at least to me.

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26 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Thanks for the read Burl.  Again, I find the explanation of 'prophecy fulfilled' as lacking and more a case of the first Christians trying to link Jesus to statements from their scriptures.

But again, which apostolic fathers in particular were you referring to when you said "It goes back to the Apostolic fathers and is still standard Orthodox teaching, so it's about as early as one can get."

Keep reading.  I only linked the first page.

Further on the subject of physical manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, listen to this testimony of St. Seraphim of Sarov.  A fascinating 15C account many westerners may not be familiar with.  Six short parts; the interviewer gets answers to many of your questions.

 

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17 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Paul,

Those instances to me are the take of other men. It seems to me Jesus knew better. I agree with you it is most likely impossible to know what Jesus really said. But , it is not impossible to experience the spiritual kingdom he pointed to and the physical kingdom is a no brainer. I think we both see with our physical eyes it doesn't exist. My conclusion is if he truly was an enlightened being then those other places you speak of, he never said as they are not verifiable at least to me.

I get that that is your take on Jesus, Joseph.  I'm just not convinced that is what Jesus intended.  To me, it seems the opposite really - that he thought the Kingdom was an imminent, physical, happening - and that the 'take of other men' is what became of Jesus' Kingdom when they were left scratching their heads after his execution.  To me, that doesn't make Jesus any less enlightened in a number of other things he said, just wrong on one of the main things he thought was going to happen.  Clearly, I'm not as convinced of the existence of this 'spiritual kingdom' as you are, but that's okay with me.  I enjoy trying to understand how and why others do and I enjoy trying to better understand what Jesus might have actually been about.

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1 hour ago, PaulS said:

I get that that is your take on Jesus, Joseph.  I'm just not convinced that is what Jesus intended.  To me, it seems the opposite really - that he thought the Kingdom was an imminent, physical, happening - and that the 'take of other men' is what became of Jesus' Kingdom when they were left scratching their heads after his execution.  To me, that doesn't make Jesus any less enlightened in a number of other things he said, just wrong on one of the main things he thought was going to happen.  Clearly, I'm not as convinced of the existence of this 'spiritual kingdom' as you are, but that's okay with me.  I enjoy trying to understand how and why others do and I enjoy trying to better understand what Jesus might have actually been about.

Just for kicks Paul,

Name a few of the  gospel writings in either Matthew, Mark, Luke or John that would lead you to believe Jesus was talking about a physical kingdom.  I would like to address them. Lets leave out what others thought he meant and stick to what Jesus is  actually recorded saying. For starters there are 32 occurances of the kingdom of Heaven in Mathew and i find none that indicate he was talking of a physical kingdom even though others may have thought so because many could not perceive it otherwise.

PS Jesus's most basic message at the start of his recorded ministry was "Repent ye , for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (eggizo) Note present tense of verb "is" instead of will be. Eggizo (at hand) from the word Eggus literally means near of place and position or those who are near access to God. Jesus makes it plain later that God is a Spirit (no body)

Edited by JosephM
added PS

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11 hours ago, JosephM said:

Just for kicks Paul,

Name a few of the  gospel writings in either Matthew, Mark, Luke or John that would lead you to believe Jesus was talking about a physical kingdom.  I would like to address them. Lets leave out what others thought he meant and stick to what Jesus is  actually recorded saying. For starters there are 32 occurances of the kingdom of Heaven in Mathew and i find none that indicate he was talking of a physical kingdom even though others may have thought so because many could not perceive it otherwise.

PS Jesus's most basic message at the start of his recorded ministry was "Repent ye , for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (eggizo) Note present tense of verb "is" instead of will be. Eggizo (at hand) from the word Eggus literally means near of place and position or those who are near access to God. Jesus makes it plain later that God is a Spirit (no body)

Here's a few Joseph:

“Truly I tell you, you will see the Son of Man…coming on the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).

“For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." (Luke 22:18)

“I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." (Matthew 26:29)

"Truly I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14:25)

“Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of that one will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.… Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power” (Mark 8:38–9:1).

“And in those days, after that affliction, the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the sky will be shaken; and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send forth his angels and he will gather his elect from the four winds, from the end of earth to the end of heaven.… Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place” (Mark 13:24–27,30).

“For just as the flashing lightning lights up the earth from one part of the sky to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.… And just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating, drinking, marrying, and giving away in marriage, until the day that Noah went into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all. So too will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Luke 17:24; 26–27, 30; Matt. 24:27, 37–39).

“Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the culmination of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom every cause of sin and all who do evil, and they will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun, in the Kingdom of their Father” (Matt. 13:40–43).

“But take care for yourselves so that your hearts are not overcome with wild living and drunkenness and the cares of this life, and that day come upon you unexpectedly, like a sprung trap. For it will come to all those sitting on the face of the earth. Be alert at all times, praying to have strength to flee from all these things that are about to take place and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man” (Luke 21:34–36).

“You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62).

“Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, and he sits on his glorious throne” (Matt. 25:31).

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If you read it in the context of his words, the clouds of heaven in the language it is written,  heaven is an elevated state as the abode of God not a physical place especially since God is a Spirit.  The coming comes like the flashing of lightning,  It's quick and easy to miss. He says as you wrote,  So too will it be when the Son of man is revealed. His coming is a revealing (revelation or uncovering) of the Son of man, not a physical appearance. All the above descriptions you mention taken literally as physical would border on the ridiculous. Clouds are a covering. Angels are messengers.  There is no huge furnace of fire, it represents the destroying of the old man and the beginning of the new. The old remains present and dies daily but the new creature is drawn into this kingdom (which in the Book of Revelations is called New Jerusalem) His words are spiritual words not literal. They are like symbols in a dream that have meaning. Nicodemus couldn't understand how a man could be born again. Jesus response is important to understanding. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. My words they are spirit and they are truth. All he said has to be taken in that context. To me, the fig on the tree has to be ripe, you are that fig. When the time is right, no writing will be necessary to see the kingdom that is clearly here on earth now and is found within yourself. 

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The purpose of life is right in front of us: It’s to create a reality we want to inhabit — to reach towards the better end of our conscious experience. At each moment, in every second of life, we are given a choice about how we want to conduct ourselves in this world, and though it might not always seem like it, each of these choices are of consequence.

That is what we will do … or at least try to do. How much choice is very debatable. We don't really choose our wants, at least in my experience. Whether I act on them or not might be considered a choice by some definitions. We are shaped by the universe unfolding as we unfold as part of that universe. 

And this is based on pure reason, from first principles and observation. Guaranteed meditation free 🙂 

Edited by romansh

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9 hours ago, JosephM said:

If you read it in the context of his words, the clouds of heaven in the language it is written,  heaven is an elevated state as the abode of God not a physical place especially since God is a Spirit.  The coming comes like the flashing of lightning,  It's quick and easy to miss. He says as you wrote,  So too will it be when the Son of man is revealed. His coming is a revealing (revelation or uncovering) of the Son of man, not a physical appearance. All the above descriptions you mention taken literally as physical would border on the ridiculous.

I disagree - the context is that Jesus does see God as spiritual but very much coming in the flesh physically when his Kingdom is brought in (like God becoming physical for Moses and others at times in the OT).  And whilst the descriptions may border on the ridiculous, there's a lot about religion that is considered ridiculous but it doesn't stop some from believing it is so.  Jesus' own family thought he was crazy - perhaps because of the 'ridiculous' things he believed and was saying?

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

There is no huge furnace of fire, it represents the destroying of the old man and the beginning of the new. The old remains present and dies daily but the new creature is drawn into this kingdom (which in the Book of Revelations is called New Jerusalem) His words are spiritual words not literal.

Jesus very much understood Gehenna to be a place of extinguishing the trash - similarly he thought the incoming kingdom would extinguish those who weren't on the right side of the Kingdom.  Not a place of everlasting torment, but nonetheless, a trash-burning dump that would get rid of those not aligned with the Kingdom.

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

Nicodemus couldn't understand how a man could be born again. Jesus response is important to understanding. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. My words they are spirit and they are truth.

Jesus may well thought you needed to be born again - you just needed to be born again before the Kingdom arrived, not born again 'into' it.

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

All he said has to be taken in that context. 

Yes, the context that Jesus was initially a follower of the apocalyptic teacher John the Baptist, that Jesus' family thought he was crazy for the things he was saying, that Jesus clearly thought he was going to be seeing his disciples again in the near future (after his death) to drink wine with them.  The context actually is that Jesus thought that time as he knew it was coming to an end.  I think too that's why the early Gospel writers attributed miracles to Jesus - "this is the guy, he is going to usher in the new physical kingdom which will overthrough our oppressors, clearly he is the guy because he has supernatural powers and can raise people from the dead".  Not that they necessary believed he did these things, but they were trying to make a point about Jesus's validity for heralding in the new, physical kingdom.

9 hours ago, JosephM said:

All the above descriptions you mention taken literally as physical would border on the ridiculous. 

Jesus is clearly talking about the physicality of drinking wine with his disciples AFTER he has died.  That doesn't fit with a spiritual kingdom, unless one wants to twist 'wine' into something else, but I don't think that's genuine.

If the kingdom really was a spiritual thing that anybody could enter at any time as it was present, why would "...the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.… Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power” (Mark 8:38–9:1).  The emphasis on 'power' is about overthrowing their cruel oppressors.

“And in those days, after that affliction, the sun will grow dark and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the sky will be shaken; and then they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send forth his angels and he will gather his elect from the four winds, from the end of earth to the end of heaven.… Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place” (Mark 13:24–27,30) - a pretty elaborate description for something that has no relevance to a spiritual kingdom (coming with power and glory and sending angels ahead to gather the elect from across the earth).

“Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the culmination of the age. The Son of Man will send forth his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom every cause of sin and all who do evil, and they will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun, in the Kingdom of their Father” (Matt. 13:40–43) - Jesus is making it pretty clear that the Kingdom will clean out the trash.  It's simply not a 'cleansing' other than an 'ethnic' cleansing of those that don't make the Kingdom's grade.

“But take care for yourselves so that your hearts are not overcome with wild living and drunkenness and the cares of this life, and that day come upon you unexpectedly, like a sprung trap. For it will come to all those sitting on the face of the earth. Be alert at all times, praying to have strength to flee from all these things that are about to take place and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man” (Luke 21:34–36) - how can something that is already there be sprung upon you unexpectedly?

"For just as the flashing lightning lights up the earth from one part of the sky to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.… And just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating, drinking, marrying, and giving away in marriage, until the day that Noah went into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all. So too will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Luke 17:24; 26–27, 30; Matt. 24:27, 37–39) - again, pretty clear about destroying those that don't meet God's standards for the Kingdom.  No cleansing of those outside the few elect in Noah's day - just destruction.

In short, I don't find your version of the Kingdom convincing at all.  But I must say I am fairly convinced by the arguments put forward by Bart Erhman in his book "Jesus, Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium".  To me, it makes Jesus' message, how others thought of him immediately following his death and how their views changed/developed when he didn't return to bring in the kingdom as promised, much more sensible.

 

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Paul,

Well, I guess i'll pass as you and scholars seem to give more weight to the literal rather than Spirit which is understandable to me..

While i agree the majority took him as speaking of a physical kingdom even as Nicodemus did,  who was a teacher himself, it is my view Jesus meant no such literal thing. He knew the flesh was temporal, flesh and Spirit were different,  and that there was no imminent literal end of the world as he instructed his disciples to pray.... "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" ...  And he knew heaven is not a physical place else it would not be eternal/forever. He came not to take them out of the world but rather to show the way to the Kingdom of God within them while still in the physical body, that is why there were some standing there that would see the kingdom and the coming of "Christ" before their physical death. One can drink wine with Christ even now when one sees the life behind the symbolism of wine as Jesus explained to his disciples while sharing it with them.  I see the prophecy as already come and coming true to each in their own order but as usual it seems to me, many miss spiritual things because, in my view, they dwell more in the mind of fleshly things as is common to all men that are born of flesh. 

So, your argument is historically and intellectually logical to me but in my view neglects the context of the Spiritual man named Jesus and his mission as i understand it from reading the NT for myself and personal experience.

Edited by JosephM
added

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7 hours ago, JosephM said:

While i agree the majority took him as speaking of a physical kingdom even as Nicodemus did,  who was a teacher himself, it is my view Jesus meant no such literal thing. He knew the flesh was temporal, flesh and Spirit were different,  and that there was no imminent literal end of the world as he instructed his disciples to pray.... "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" ... 

Clearly Jews (and I believe Jesus as an observant Jew) did not only think of God & Heaven as spiritual, but also physical - the OT describes Satan walking the earth before returning to heaven to discuss Job with God, Elijah was taken to Heaven to be with God in a chariot in his physical body, and Jews believed God dwelt, physically, in the inner sanctum of the tabernacle.  So when Jesus prays "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" I think he very much means implement your Kingdom on earth just like it is in heaven - with God as the ruler and everybody living in peace, praise and worship of God.  I think Jews also understood God, angels etc to share spiritual abilities too, but they were able to physically manifest themselves also.

 

7 hours ago, JosephM said:

One can drink wine with Christ even now when one sees the life behind the symbolism of wine as Jesus explained to his disciples while sharing it with them.  I see the prophecy as already come and coming true to each in their own order but as usual it seems to me, many miss spiritual things because, in my view, they dwell more in the mind of fleshly things as is common to all men that are born of flesh. 

I think that's a stretch - Jesus, who is drinking wine with his disciples explicitly says that he will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until he drinks it in the new Kingdom - I can't see this being symbolism.  I think that is a personal extrapolation not in accordance with what Jesus meant.

Quote

So, your argument is historically and intellectually logical to me but in my view neglects the context of the Spiritual man named Jesus and his mission as i understand it from reading the NT for myself and personal experience.

Which of course you are entitled to but I think you are missing the true context around Jesus - his urgency about the message of the Kingdom, his family thinking he was crazy, people claiming him to be the Son of God and attributing miracles to him to validate his importance when they were urging others to prepare for the imminent kingdom.  To me it seems too much symbolism and extrapolation of messages that were not really there, to turn Jesus' message into anything other than a physical, imminent, Jewish Kingdom to overthrow Rome and have God ruling the world.  

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Physical and spiritual clearly coexist, and Jesus did eat and drink with the disciples after zHis resurrection.

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5 hours ago, Burl said:

...and Jesus did eat and drink with the disciples after zHis resurrection.

None of the gospels actually say Jesus drank, so assumptions have to be made that breaking bread means a broader view including drinking of the vine.  But then again, Mark & Mathew don't even mention breaking bread, so more than likely a later development as the stories about Jesus began to grow.

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22 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think that's a stretch - Jesus, who is drinking wine with his disciples explicitly says that he will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until he drinks it in the new Kingdom - I can't see this being symbolism.  I think that is a personal extrapolation not in accordance with what Jesus meant.

Clearly Jews (and I believe Jesus as an observant Jew) did not only think of God & Heaven as spiritual, but also physical - the OT describes Satan walking the earth before returning to heaven to discuss Job with God, Elijah was taken to Heaven to be with God in a chariot in his physical body, and Jews believed God dwelt, physically, in the inner sanctum of the tabernacle.  So when Jesus prays "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven" I think he very much means implement your Kingdom on earth just like it is in heaven - with God as the ruler and everybody living in peace, praise and worship of God.  I think Jews also understood God, angels etc to share spiritual abilities too, but they were able to physically manifest themselves also.

Of course it was symbolism, why else would he have said to them before he drank it  'for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."  The wine symbolized his blood, blood symbolizes life force. It seems to me, Literalism when reading the Bible can be a real hindrance to understanding.

I think it might help to speak to some Jews for yourself to find out what they really believe. This WIKI  might help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

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9 hours ago, JosephM said:

Of course it was symbolism, why else would he have said to them before he drank it  'for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."  The wine symbolized his blood, blood symbolizes life force. It seems to me, Literalism when reading the Bible can be a real hindrance to understanding.

I think it might help to speak to some Jews for yourself to find out what they really believe. This WIKI  might help https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism

I don't think the symbolism is being extended here to represent the fruit of the vine as Jesus' blood in the new kingdom.  You would agree that not everything that Jesus is represented as saying should be read as symbolism.  I don't think it follows that just because Jesus uses symbolism for one matter that it carries that he has to be maintaining symbolism  all the way through the occasion.  I'm okay if you think it does - I just don't agree and I don't find your argument convincing.  But I know that won't be an issue for you.

I'm no expert on Jews in general and have no doubt that Jewish beliefs vary almost as much as the thousands of differing Christian beliefs.  So I'm sure there are/were Jews who view God only as spiritual, and some, like some from the OT, that very much viewed God as physical on a number of occasions. 

I don't think it is an unreasonable hypothesis that Erhmann demonstrates support for in is book, that Jesus was talking about a physical kingdom.  But I doubt we are going to agree on this matter.

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Well, all we have to go by in writing is what is recorded as Jesus saying and the writing you mentioned stopped short of the versus afterwards where he shows the wine as symbolism. Mathew 26:28,  Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 and then read John 5:53. I think if you are reasonable you will see symbolism in all 4 Gospels for that event. Also Jesus used a large number of parables in the Gospels that proves that Jesus used a lot of symbolism  by speaking in Parables especially when describing the kingdom of God / Heaven. Perhaps that will be more convincing to you if you read them all.

PS Symbolism has been a big part of the Bible even since OT times....       https://www.compellingtruth.org/biblical-symbolism.html     I think you will find this link compelling to my point

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8 hours ago, JosephM said:

Well, all we have to go by in writing is what is recorded as Jesus saying and the writing you mentioned stopped short of the versus afterwards where he shows the wine as symbolism. Mathew 26:28,  Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20 and then read John 5:53. I think if you are reasonable you will see symbolism in all 4 Gospels for that event. Also Jesus used a large number of parables in the Gospels that proves that Jesus used a lot of symbolism  by speaking in Parables especially when describing the kingdom of God / Heaven. Perhaps that will be more convincing to you if you read them all.

PS Symbolism has been a big part of the Bible even since OT times....       https://www.compellingtruth.org/biblical-symbolism.html     I think you will find this link compelling to my point

There is symbolism within that event undoubtedly, when Jesus tells his disciples to drink the wine as representative of him (Jesus states that symbolism loud and clear).  But the latter sentence, when Jesus says he won't drink wine (or the fruit of the vine for that matter - he is not referrign to wine symbolically here) with his disciples again until he is in the new Kingdom, is simply not symbolic, but rather he is describing what he thinks will be a very real and physical occurrence.  Jesus is not saying "I will not symbolically drink my blood with you again until I exist in a new spiritual kingdom". 

So I see symbolism as reported in this Gospel event as well as realism - Jesus very much thought he wouldn't participate again in this sort of activity until he was sitting in the very real and physical Kingdom of God, instituted on earth, in all its power and glory.

No argument Jesus used a lot of symbolism (as do many authors in the bible), but clearly every word Jesus is represented to have uttered is not meant to be taken as symbolic and I have explained why this last sentence for this occurrence should not be read that way.  I am convinced it was later Christianity that started to interpret Jesus' very real & physical understanding of the Kingdom as a symbolic interpretation when the real and physical Kingdom didn't come, hence John's very spiritual and symbolic take on Jesus (when compared to earlier authors like those of Mark & Mathew).

I think it is you who should find my point compelling! :)

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2 hours ago, PaulS said:

There is symbolism within that event undoubtedly, when Jesus tells his disciples to drink the wine as representative of him (Jesus states that symbolism loud and clear).  But the latter sentence, when Jesus says he won't drink wine (or the fruit of the vine for that matter - he is not referrign to wine symbolically here) with his disciples again until he is in the new Kingdom, is simply not symbolic, but rather he is describing what he thinks will be a very real and physical occurrence.  Jesus is not saying "I will not symbolically drink my blood with you again until I exist in a new spiritual kingdom". 

So I see symbolism as reported in this Gospel event as well as realism - Jesus very much thought he wouldn't participate again in this sort of activity until he was sitting in the very real and physical Kingdom of God, instituted on earth, in all its power and glory.

No argument Jesus used a lot of symbolism (as do many authors in the bible), but clearly every word Jesus is represented to have uttered is not meant to be taken as symbolic and I have explained why this last sentence for this occurrence should not be read that way.  I am convinced it was later Christianity that started to interpret Jesus' very real & physical understanding of the Kingdom as a symbolic interpretation when the real and physical Kingdom didn't come, hence John's very spiritual and symbolic take on Jesus (when compared to earlier authors like those of Mark & Mathew).

I think it is you who should find my point compelling! :)

You are just scratching the surface of the imagery.  It's rooted in the the vine/vineyard/vintner parables.

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