Jesus May Have Been Gay

[Pete]

Was Jesus gay or bi or whatever? I cannot say. I have heard the secret gospel of Mark is said to say :- "And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan"

from :- http://en.wikipedia...._Gospel_of_Mark

Then again is the secret gospel of Mark credible. Some say yes and some say no.

 

Yet, there is also a suspicion that John the Baptist and Jesus may of had connections to the Essenes who may of been celibate or not. see:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

 

(IMO) It is hard picking through the nearly 2000 year old scraps of information we have to conclude what Jesus' sexuality was but I do not feel it really matters much except that it would majorly challenge some of the homophobic groups within Christianity. That for me would be their problem and their issues and not one I care to support them in upholding.

[JenellYB]

As I understand Alan's explanation for his reason for his interest in this matter, that of how to convserse with those traditional Christian beliefs about homosexuality, I seen no reason or purpose served to bring into discussion anything not a part of the bible their tradtions accept. Non-canonical and potentially spurious sources such as this Gospel of Mark, or even the more widely respected Gospel ofThomas, isn't going to do anything but give them an additional reason to discredit anything you might say about anything else. By even trying to bring in a non-canonical resource, you merely further convince them of what they already believe, that you can't find biblical support for your idea.

 

Jenell

[murmsk]

They aren't going to listen anyway. Jesus himself could walk in the room turn, water into diet coke, and if he said gays were to be loved, respected and treated as anyone else,,,, the fundamentalist would say he has been brainwashed by those damn liberals.

 

steve

[glintofpewter]

I realized it is hard to know about that sort of thing

I never know until I ask or they tell me. Do you know someone who is bi?

[glintofpewter]

It was not unusual for men without property and means to remain life-long bachelors

Whether Jesus was gay, bi or straight doesn't seem to make a difference in his messages but life isn't sexless. While sexual orientation may not be our business I don't think "life long bachelors" would mean "sexless" bachelors. There was sexual activity. It is just not in Scripture.

[minsocal]

I never know until I ask or they tell me. Do you know someone who is bi?

 

Exactly. Here is the same idea in the hands of an analytic philosopher, John Searle:

 

"To be conscious of something you have to be conscious of it as something (again, barring pathology and the like), but perceiving as, and other forms of consciousness as, require categories. But preexisting categories imply prior familiarity with the categories, hence the perceptions are under the aspect of the familiar. So these features hang together:

 

structuredness,

perception as,t

he aspectual shape of all intentionality,

categories,

the aspect of familiarity.

 

Conscious experiences come to us as structured, those structures enable us to perceive things under aspects, but those aspects are constrained by our mastery of a set of categories, and those categories, being familiar, enable us, in varying degrees, to assimilate our experiences, however novel, to the familiar (Searle, 1992, p. 136)."

 

Think it through, its just like Dutch said ... if you don't ask, then you can't tell (or something like that).

 

Myron

[Neon Genesis]

Welcome to the forums, Alan! I hope you'll enjoy posting here! As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence Jesus was gay and I think a stronger case could be made that Jesus may have had a relationship with Mary Magdalene and I think an even stronger case could be made in favor of David and Jonathan over Jesus.

 

To assume Jesus was gay just because he had lots of guy friends and never married is based on gender stereotypes that straight men are perverted and horny and do nothing but have sex with women all day long and if you're not having endless sex with women, then either something must be wrong with you or you must be gay. If Jesus' lack of sexual activity proves he is gay, then this would mean that all single men who ever lived must be gay. Another alternative is maybe Jesus was asexual and he didn't marry because he had no sex drive. But if it was proven Jesus was gay, I doubt it would matter to homophobic Christians because they would just deny it and put their heads in the sand and as you rightly say, there's no point in trying to reason with them.

[glintofpewter]

Another alternative is maybe Jesus was asexual and he didn't marry because he had no sex drive.

IF we say Jesus was fully human and fully divine the human part of him had a sex drive. Kazantzakis considered this in The Last Temptation of Christ.

[JenellYB]

i like that "if you don't ask,you can't tell"....

The only times I can recall actually giving any thought to a man's sexual orientation was a few times when I was single and felt an attraction, and considering following up on that interest.

 

Jenell

[Neon Genesis]

IF we say Jesus was fully human and fully divine the human part of him had a sex drive. Kazantzakis considered this in The Last Temptation of Christ.

But there are humans who have no sex drive at all. It's a phenomenon called asexuality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual

[Pete]

As I understand Alan's explanation for his reason for his interest in this matter, that of how to convserse with those traditional Christian beliefs about homosexuality, I seen no reason or purpose served to bring into discussion anything not a part of the bible their tradtions accept. Non-canonical and potentially spurious sources such as this Gospel of Mark, or even the more widely respected Gospel ofThomas, isn't going to do anything but give them an additional reason to discredit anything you might say about anything else. By even trying to bring in a non-canonical resource, you merely further convince them of what they already believe, that you can't find biblical support for your idea.

 

Jenell

Hi Jenell,

I think I need to respond.

As I understand it the opening post was not about how to converse with traditional viewpoints. The opening by AlanBrooks was just the Title "Jesus may of been gay" and the post was "He never married, had no children.

He associated with men mostly (His disciples)."

 

I only mentioned the secret gospel of Mark because some use such writings to justify their view that Jesus was Gay. I personally agree that the secret gospel of Mark is unbelievable and I believe it is a forgery (IMO). I also agree that whether Jesus was gay or bi or heterio it would make no difference to the way I view his teachings and I am not seeking to justify that Jesus was gay. I just saying that there is so little information (IMO) to justify anything about Jesus' sexuality.

[JenellYB]

Pete, I should have been more specific to what comments by Alan I was responding to in my post you quoted above...It was Alan's comments in post #12 under this thread that I took as interest in how to respond to tradtional conservative views of the matter. sorry for any confusion:

 

Alan posted: "The topic isn't an important one; however it isn't entirely irrelevant. Rightists in America (the GOP being one of the most conservative parties in the world) use every method to have at gays- esp. selective Biblical quotes to not only dismiss what I call alternative-orientation, but also to attack alternate-orientation in the most confrontational way. So if there were to be any evidence indicating Jesus was different in actuality from the conventional image presented to us, then I want to know about it.

And some of you have furnished some clues above. "

 

Jenell

[Pete]

We do not have the same political parties here in the UK as some do across the pond but we do have some very conservative Christians.

 

It has been in my experience not a productive way forward to use the bible to persuade conservatives that being gay is fine.

Explaining that Paul's use of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (NIV)." may well be referring to the practice of teachers who sexually abuse their understudies;

That Leviticus 18:22 - "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." (NIV) is likely to be referring to the worship of Molek as described in Leviticus 18:21. It is said to have been a common practice that Molek worshippers had sex (both heterio and homosexual sex) with priests in order to be in communion with Molek;

and that the words in hebrew from Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (NIV) according to a Rabbi friend of mine could just as easily mean that you do not use the same bed for gay relationships as one does with your wife.

 

It has also not been (IMO) that successful to point out that it says in Acts 10:27-29 that God does not approve of calling people unclean (....... "But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean".....) and along with the verses that tell us not to judge others or those without sin should cast the first stone.

 

My favoured verse from 1 John 4:7-8 which suggests that God prefers that we love each other " ^"7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. ⁸ Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." and Jesus' new commandment confirms this and suggests to me that it is unloving to judge another's sexuality but according to some conservatives they feel it is equally unloving not to try and save them from what they believe is a sin.

 

It is also often (IMO) unproductive to mention that gay relationships occur throughout nature and if God is so against gay relationships then to question them as why this should be so.

 

Although they may not agree with your arguements I think there is however enough above to justify your not agreeing with their interpretation of the bible.

 

If they continue to call one a sinner then I suggest that the follow letter written by anon may get them off your back.

 

"

Dear President Bush:

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

 

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this law applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

Mr. Bush, I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

(Author Unknown)"

 

However I also suspect they will not be amused by it and so I would just keep it in reserve.

It is all different for me as I do not believe that the bible is God's word and that it is more just mankind's words about God and as such can be in error. Conservatives rarely agree with my position on this for reasons that they base their faith on differing things to me and although we may disagree I think however, there is room to respect that things are not so clear cut against gay people and in their favour.

[Neon Genesis]

The best way to counter homophobia is to come out of the closet if you are able to over theological and political arguments. Surveys repeatedly show that people who know openly gay people tend to be less homophobic than people who don't. The more homosexuality becomes a common everyday occurrence, the more difficult it will be for homophobic Christians to hate gays when they find more of their family and loved ones who identify as gay.

[Pete]

The best way to counter homophobia is to come out of the closet if you are able to over theological and political arguments. Surveys repeatedly show that people who know openly gay people tend to be less homophobic than people who don't. The more homosexuality becomes a common everyday occurrence, the more difficult it will be for homophobic Christians to hate gays when they find more of their family and loved ones who identify as gay.

I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Although I grew up in a conservative family, no one mentions the topic after a couple of my nephews came out and everyone has been more accepting and loving towards them since. I have heard it can be hard for some but I think what you have said makes sense to me.

My wife's ex came out years ago and the divorse was painful. Today my wife and I often stay at his home and treat him a close family member. It can work out well.

[murmsk]

A bit a encouraging news.

 

I was having lunch with a couple of folks and the discussion got to gays . The kid of the group (28yr old)

said all to hoopla is my generations problem, people of his generation don't care.... people are people gay or straight no difference. My children say the same thing.

 

We need to listen to our children

steve

[JenellYB]

I've heard it observed that old ideas and beleifs don't die until the generation that holds them passes away.

 

Jenell

[Pete]

I think to our credit such things would not pass away if people of the previous and this generation had not said that they believe something is wrong. So I praise the next generation if they overcome homophobia, but I feel it it should also be noted that it is partly due to some in this generation having the nerve to point that they disagreed with some of the views of conservative religion.

I feel dispite many conservative protests and assertions that their view of what is biblical is the only true one, this is a battle they have lost.

However, I worry because many still believe that the conservative view of Christianity is the only viewpoint and all who disagree with them are not really Christians. If (IMO) progressive and liberal views do not become the mainstream then I also wonder what the next generation will think of Christianity.

[JosephM]

Perhaps if we take care of the present doing all that is positive and placed within our grasp to do so........ the future will take care of itself.

[JenellYB]

Perhaps if we take care of the present doing all that is positive and placed within our grasp to do so........ the future will take care of itself.

 

I don't think there's any better way of percieving, believing, and doing than this. Whether as an individual, a society, or the collective humanity, there's no way to make the journey from where we are to where we are going than to walk it one step at a time. There are going to be times on a long, arduous journey when the traveler becomes tired, sometimes even discouraged, the destination still seems so far away. But wherever on the way the traveler is, all it takes to regain perspective is to look back at how much ground, how far one's patient and persistent steps have already brought one, to find the encouragement to keep walking in the right direction, to keep on keeping on, with all hope for a future that draws ever nearer any destination along the way.

 

 

Jenell

[Pete]

I don't think there's any better way of percieving, believing, and doing than this. Whether as an individual, a society, or the collective humanity, there's no way to make the journey from where we are to where we are going than to walk it one step at a time. There are going to be times on a long, arduous journey when the traveler becomes tired, sometimes even discouraged, the destination still seems so far away. But wherever on the way the traveler is, all it takes to regain perspective is to look back at how much ground, how far one's patient and persistent steps have already brought one, to find the encouragement to keep walking in the right direction, to keep on keeping on, with all hope for a future that draws ever nearer any destination along the way.

 

 

Jenell

I love that. Thanks Jenell.

[NORM]

If they continue to call one a sinner then I suggest that the follow letter written by anon may get them off your back.

 

"

Dear President Bush:

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said, "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

 

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

 

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this law applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

 

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

 

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

 

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

Mr. Bush, I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

(Author Unknown)"

 

Priceless!

 

Of course, the one that has always troubled me was is this:

 

11. Perhaps you can give direction when we consider Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

 

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."

 

Since we live in an unincorporated village, there are no "city gates." Where shall we take our rebellious son to be stoned to death?

 

NORM

 

 

NORM

[Neon Genesis]

I thought that letter to Bush was originally written to Dr. Laura, wasn't it?

[NORM]

Don't know. I've seen it in many variations. The one I saw was addressed to the governor of our state.

 

NORM

[JenellYB]

I think about that everytime i hear in the news someone beats a young child to death, usually claiming it was because the baby "refused" to potty-train, or "wouldn't stop crying"....what are all the biblical literalists getting all upset about it and judging the killer a disgusting monster...after all, bible does tell parents to kill their disobedient children.

 

Jenell

(we don't have an emoticon for 'tongue in cheek', do we?)