Pledge Of Allegiance In A Church Service, Redux

[Saoirse]

In the former thread, which last saw activity 6 months ago, excellent suggestions were made about reading materials to support the person who posted the thread, and question, 'Are there any good religious writings that support the separation of church and state, especially relating to the Lutheran church,' since the poster was concerned about the lack of information demonstrated by the Lutheran Pastor, during whose service one Sunday was conducted the Pledge of Allegiance, regarding the Lutheran position on same. Someone (thankfully) suggested the Barman doctrine - and quoted it - but didn't mention that this was a doctrine the Lutheran Church adopted in response to the Nazi's attempted take-over of the German Protestant Church through the counter-movement started by clergy throughout Germany and Scandinavia, led by modern history's last Christian martyr, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, known as the Confessing Church.

 

I would like to reinvigorate the discussion with this question: Is it time (or past time) for an American Confessing Church movement?

 

I have been the target of government PSYOP (MK-Ultra) conducted at my former church (a Unitarian Universalist Church), I've seen flags on display in another such church during a 'service' in which the minister charged the congregation with accepting paranormal explanations for physical phenomena BEFORE exploring very possible and plausible empirically derived explanations, and I've seen congregants in another such church in this, the once most liberal of church traditions, being instructed by the minister in a 'new' way of dialogue which effectively and immediately silenced those members of the congregation who introduce controversial topics of discussion that would have once ignited activism among them, such as civil rights issues.

 

If this is happening in the formerly most liberal church in America, and no one, such as Chris Hedges, is talking about it, preferring rather to use his prominence to radically diminish the perception of the pernicious way our government has changed the church in America by making it seem like the cults its created (the Christian Dominiinists, Christian Zionists, Creationists, etc.), how is the church to recover without a Confessing Church response to this invasion?

 

Thank you.

[glintofpewter]

The solution is not about the right institutions or the wrong ones. We create a better world by creating a better world.

[JenellYB]

I am and have long been uncomfortable with symbols of nationalism, such as flags, within or connected to a church. that has less to do, for me at least, with any formal or legal 'separation of church and state' thing, than it does with matters of faith, God, are apart, above, any matters of nationality, more espeically, alliegence to an nationality, or for that matter, ethnic or racial or political designation. I've in recent years noticed not only US National flags, but even STATE flags, displayed in some churches, and offensive to me, in the sanctuary flanking the podium and altar! I'm afraid to encounter the Pledge of Alliegence within a church service might just send me flipping into a scene over it with someone!! Or at least, mean I'd state my opnion and never go there again, anyway.

 

I am very uncomfortable with the present trend tying Christian religion and faith matters to particular political parties, in both directions its being worked, and being "American" to being "Christian" and visa versa as well. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ! Let alone American or any other!

 

 

The laws of our land do address, prohibit, a church, if it maintains a tax exempt status as a church, promoting or endorsing any partiucular candidate, but I think a lot of those trying to meld politics and church are bending and stretching and pushing that, worming around it, in ways I am not comfortable with. I've attended services, particularly as Nov 2008 and 2010 elections drew near, in which even pastors in the pulpit were clearly "preaching" the "need" for their people to get to the polls and vote for.....and every kind of whatever about particular, specific candidates short of using their actual names making it abundnantly clear who the "godly" choice should be....The "invasion" as you put it is going both ways, not just or even so much that government is invading the church, but the church is invading government. And the driving force IS from WITHIN THE CHURCH. i point out, that those flags in the church, that pledge of alliegance said, wasn't ordered or even requested by government, it was from within the church those ideas arose.

 

I can see how some might, out of either confusion, lack of understanding, or, just attempt to avoid anything controversial, think to avoid any problems at all by just eliminating, making taboo, any discussions about issues, social, economic, whatever, for concern they do or might touch too closely upon favoring some one politcal party or candidate over another. But I don't agree with it. Thewre is no inherent reason Republicans and Democrats of competing candidates for any office MUST be at odds with the other in any and all issues and the best ways to address them. Though that sure seems to be the prevailing beleif and practice!

 

Do we need a "Confessing Church" as in the case in Germany in the last century? I think a "Confessing Church" within individual denominations, as was the case with Lutherans, must not be limited to that. Christians of all denominations might consider taking such stands, speaking up. Expressing, just as I noted above, my own discomfort with some things I'm seeing, within their churches.

 

Jenell

[PaulS]

We create a better world by creating a better world.

 

Nice quote, Dutch.

[GeorgeW]

I have been the target of government PSYOP (MK-Ultra) conducted at my former church (a Unitarian Universalist Church),

 

Saoirse,

 

Can you be more specific about the government 'targeting' your church? What exactly did they do and how do you know that it was the government? I am unaware of the government targeting churches.

 

George

[Saoirse]

Thanks, Jennell, George (and Dutch). Yes - I agree. There is invasion going both ways, Jennell. But perhaps my answer to George's question will demonstrate how the govt. has invaded the church. In 1981, when Reagan signed Executive Order 12333, he made the infiltration of activist groups for the purposes of influencing their work a domestic priority. My former church is the oldest of its type in the large, blue-blooded city near which I lived. In 1968, it was fire-bombed after it agreed to host a civil rights meeting. It and its activist members have apparently been on the FBI's list for a long time. (The CIA has long armed the FBI - even before various policies and laws 'legalized' this practice in the 1990s and that the CIA never stopped using COINTELPRO against activists even after it told Congress it would in 1974.) one of their PSYOP weapons is MK-Ultra. You can wiki it to learn more, if you don't know what it is. Anyway, it's a discrediting technique that is used to isolatepotentially effective activists from potential allies. It was developed at Harvard University (which has been closely affiliated with my former church since the beginning of each). As I said, my former church had been firebombed and civil rights activists there targeted. My former minister (may he rest in peace) saw it ALL in his 37-year ministry. He candidly told me I was "being blocked" after witnessing the MK-Ultra and other stuff that made me want to leave the church (more than just rebuffed with extreme prejudice).

 

Now these tools are in the hands of every Joe Shmo in our military dictatorship - and have been for quite some time:

 

www.dontfearyourfreedom.blogspot.com

 

And you are right - there needs to be a Confessing Church in every denomination. But if they are controlled by the government - as is now the case with the Unitarian-Universalists - and work to isolate and intimidate potential activist leaders (if only so their churches are no longer burned), then from where will come the impetus to change? I am trying not to despair, but it is hard. I feel like Moshe, the Beadle of Sighet, in Eli Weisel's "Night" sometimes: "Listen

to me. I don't want money or pity. . . . Only listen." (And Weisel writes next, "We didn't believe him.")

 

(FYI: I am targeted because I am a bioslave, like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study victims and so many millions more - and I choose to speak against the medicotechnocrats who have enslaved me.)

Yet another UU

[Saoirse]

I did not type "Yet another UU" at the end of my previous post.

[Saoirse]

And that, Jenell, is MK-Ultra in action.

 

When I observe the fact that the last line of my previous post was not typed by me, then I call into question the moderator - presumably, the only person in control of the platform. But to do so makes me look as though I am deliberately bringing unnecessary dissension into the forum, and who would do that except someone working for the government - a snitch - right? It's called a snitch jacket, just another type of MK-Ultra.

 

So what would you do if you were me, Jenell? less than 4 posts and the administrators of this forum have made it clear that I can expect the same type of targeting here that I experience in the non-virtual world, despite their feigned ignorance of the topic under discussion.

[glintofpewter]

Saoirse,

 

Yet another UU

 

Every moderator will say that they did not do. Every moderator here will say that there would be evidence that you would see at the bottom of the post if one of us had.

 

You will not believe us.

 

Dutch

[JenellYB]

Oh my.