Juanster Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 According to the gospel of Jesus Christ, it takes the testimony of Two or Three to arrive at the Truth of a matter. http://911physics.atspace.com/Pages/Osama.htm As seem via MSM, the Nation has swallowed the drivel, hook line and sinker, of Osama bin Laden's accusers without following the instructions of Christ. Who are these false witnesses? MSNBC let the cat out of the bage when it gave a description of the events that took place on the third floor of Osama's house. First a woman was shot in the leg, then an Unarmed Osama was shot twice in the head by an expert marksman of Sealteam six. This tells me that Osama was predestined to die witout having his day in court. If this was the case, then this incedent was Cold Blooded Murder to prevent the other side of the story(Osama's side) from being told. As you visualize the scenario as presented by MSNBC, The Woman(a moving target) was shot in the leg. Few Arabic women or over 5-1/2ft. tall. To shoot one in the leg, the rifle would need to be pointing almost toward the floor. To next shoot a 6'5" man in the head that rifle would have to be elevated almost toward the ceiling. Osama was unarmed and not a threat, he also could of been shot in a non lethal section of his body, if he wasn't predestined to be executed on the spot, without a judge or jury to hear his side of the story; Deadmen Tell No Tales. "I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation." - Osama Bin Laden <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34440,00.html> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a higher way Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Deleted Redundant quoted post from last post...JM Hi Juanster, As I see it, the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to Love our enemies, not kill them. I am amazed at how many "believers" are not following Jesus in this regard.. Blessings, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Hi Juanster, As I see it, the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us to Love our enemies, not kill them. I am amazed at how many "believers" are not following Jesus in this regard.. Blessings, brian I would have preferred that OBL be captured and tried. But, he was a dangerous man who killed thousands of innocent people and his capture, IMO, would not have been worth risking a single life in capturing him. He continued to encourage and inspire extremists to take innocent lives. I don't celebrate his death, but I also cannot shed any tears for him as the world is better off with him gone. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayatl Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Of course he should have, going by the shaky statements you'all are quoting. You will forgive my cynicism as I have just finished a personal study of Crossan's books about Jesus and Paul as well as a group study of "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright. Looking at one statement "love your enemy" and spouting off about OBL is almost as silly as asking "Are you born again?" and expecting an intelligent conversation. After an exhaustive(for me) study about the historical vs the post resurrection Jesus and Saint Paul, I am humbled by the number of unread books people suggested I read. I think I can confidently say that ascribing the "love your enemy" to Jesus is about as historically dangerous as basing your faith in Jesus on the "born again" story of Nicodemious or however you spell his name. PS I am delighted that OBL is dead. Kay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampawombat Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 There is a lot in the whole incident that I continue to try to sort out. When the story first broke, I had the impression that bin Laden died during an exchange of fire. Now it seems more likely that this was not the case. Perhaps the person who shot him would have us believe that he appeared to be going for a weapon of some sort. Another possibility is that someone else in the area fired and bin Laden died as the result of returned fire. There was a quote to the effect that the Seals were prepared to take him alive if the occasion presented itself. So it is difficult for me to know whether or not killing him was in any way justified. Of course, philosophically, killing is not justified anyway. On the other hand, my gut response was to recall how people reacted to the news that Hitler was dead. The positive reaction was pretty much universal. I can't imagine that there was much concern about whether or not he received his day in court. But Hitler and bin Laden in many ways are more symbols that actual people. I realize that to dehumanize them in this way does go against some basic convictions of mine, but I can't seem to be as objective about this as I think I am supposed to be. It also occurred to me that capturing him might lead to a person or perhaps several people being kidnapped and held as hostages until bin Laden was released. I do see this as rationalization, but I find it sensible in a way. I do hold a presumption of guilt relative to bin Laden, and as with Hitler, I don't find much to support a contrary point of view. But what I find most disturbing is that none of the reports I have heard or read give any indication that my observations and thoughts are in any way shared by others. Only here on this forum is there the sense that perhaps people acting on our behalf have done something wrong, even though their intentions may have been honorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 There is a lot in the whole incident that I continue to try to sort out. When the story first broke, I had the impression that bin Laden died during an exchange of fire. Now it seems more likely that this was not the case. Perhaps the person who shot him would have us believe that he appeared to be going for a weapon of some sort. Another possibility is that someone else in the area fired and bin Laden died as the result of returned fire. There was a quote to the effect that the Seals were prepared to take him alive if the occasion presented itself. So it is difficult for me to know whether or not killing him was in any way justified. Of course, philosophically, killing is not justified anyway. I read somewhere that there was a concern that he might have a suicide bomb vest on. In any event, I am certain they were anticipating resistance. Also, he should have had time to prepare to resist as there were helicopters landing at his house and the Seals fought their way to his quarters. But, I think the more important issue for this forum is the moral question. As was discussed in another thread, we often do not encounter simple good/evil situations and sometimes there is no purely good option. So, the issue is the greater good or lesser evil. In this case, the demise of OBL is, IMO, the lesser evil. This was a very bad man who would send young men to their death in order to murder innocent people who might have a different ideology. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a higher way Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Since Jesus tells us to "LOVE our enemies," I can't for the life of me see what justifies killing anyone, especially our enemies. Many Christians today don't want to follow Christ. Imo. They just want to go to heaven, but on their own terms. When war is fought in American soil, then Americans won't be celebrating death anymore. And maybe then the Christians will take Jesus seriously.. Blessings, brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juanster Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Of course he should have, going by the shaky statements you'all are quoting. You will forgive my cynicism as I have just finished a personal study of Crossan's books about Jesus and Paul as well as a group study of "The Evolution of God" by Robert Wright. Looking at one statement "love your enemy" and spouting off about OBL is almost as silly as asking "Are you born again?" and expecting an intelligent conversation. After an exhaustive(for me) study about the historical vs the post resurrection Jesus and Saint Paul, I am humbled by the number of unread books people suggested I read. I think I can confidently say that ascribing the "love your enemy" to Jesus is about as historically dangerous as basing your faith in Jesus on the "born again" story of Nicodemious or however you spell his name. PS I am delighted that OBL is dead. Kay Kay, The reason I asked this question is because I was always taught that this Nation was established, not only on Christian principles but also on the establishment of Law, which has established that All men are created equal and are innocewnt until proven guilty in a court of Law. At the time of OBL's death he was Legally an innocent man, deserving of all protections U.S.Law provides. His executionor had not been authorized by a Judge and Jury of his peers to terminate his life. What happened to "Innocent Until Proven Guilty"? By denying OBL the right to face his accusers or defend hmself in a court of Law, provides grounds to sue for damages by the OBL family and the nation of Pakistan for war crimes. IOW, this was a continuation of the cowboy antics of the previous administration as described in this article: <http://www.truthout.org/sort-murder-inc-behind-forces-who-took-down-bin-laden/1304430967> As I delved deeper into the history of Al-qaeda and how it was created, I was shocked to find that it was a creation of the U.S. Gov., which adds credence to OBL's denial of complicity in the 9/11 tragedy. <http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html> And this one: <http://www.rense.com/general61/myths.htm> As these three links establish, Al-qaeda was a creature of this government. The pilots of the planes that crashed into the WTC towers are still alive and well in Saudi Arabia. All of this would of been revealed in a Court of Law,if OBL had not of been executed. Remember, after being indicted, even a Ham Sandwich deserves the option of a defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Juan, I had to comment on this as I was sent an email this morning about a response to a topic I was watching. Not that it will change anyone's thinking, of course... The news reports of OBL (not to be confused yet again with BO ), are from mainstream media, which is highly controlled and in many cases fabricated for an agenda, as many of us know. The reason there are so many conflicting 'reports' is because there are conflicting truths. OBL is not responsible for 911 and was used to instill hate and fear in the people of the US, not to mention further excuse to continuing to invade Iraq with our 'protective' presence against Al Quada (which never existed). And so, in answer to the question you posed, how can you bring to trial a man who is already dead? He's reportedly (not by mainstream media) died years ago from a disease. One of his right hand men was a physician who was with him always. Interesting how this 'capture' should happen right at the time when Obama's approval ratings had plunged. Just sayin'... Kath, Star Reporter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Video deleted by JosephM as Moderator. This area is for CASUAL TALK between members on what ever you like but promoting conspiratoriaL therories with videos or having an outside of PC agenda is not appropriate anywhere on this forum. More than a casual conversation will not be allowed. Added 5-24-2010 JosephM _____________________________________________________________________________ A two hour watch, but was worth it to me to spend the time and pass on. I've learned that for every thing that happens, to go deeper into the reason. Most people don't do that, and that's okay. I think it's what keeps them in the 'everything in moderation' genre of mental health, which to me is relative. Music is that way as well. Some find Classical music soothes them, and others like hard rock. hard or acid rock makes me nauseaus, but I like just about all other music. Understand that to me, it's completely understood that people have their own perspectives and beliefs regarding today's world. I respect that. But when there is so much information from valid sources begging to be heard, I have to wonder how to classify those who do not take the time in their (understandably) busy lives to listen to even consider investigating. I have to use the term, "ignorantly rigid". Just sayin' Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Just keep digging and make up your own minds. If anyone here is from the original Spong forum, you might remember that when Tim Russert 'died' I was skeptical, since I've listened to him questioning those in government and his questions were very pointed, and challenging. Specifically to Bush, Kerry, and others who may or may not be involved in the 'skull and bones' society, but allegedly are/were. I just googled 'was tim russert murdered?' again and this is what I want to pass on to you if interested.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVaJhpMonsA You see, I'm just now learning that our history is presented to us on a needs be basis. Need is to blind us to what has really gone on in history, not what the text books have taught us. If those of you reading this want to live in your own lala land and be happy as long as you can, I hope for your sake that you don't worry about your children and grandchildren, because if you do, and don't pay attention to the reality of our historic situation, you will be negligent to them. Having been born with ADD as a result of things I'll be happy to share with anyone interested, I had largely overcome that curse only to have my mind 'foggily compromised' after contracting Lyme disease a few years ago. But, joke's on those little organisms, because I have been majorly recovering and the clarity is back. (Just found another tick in my side, followed by the classic bulls eye rash indicating that Lyme is definitely focused on invading me, but I will prevail.) If it were not for that and other research I would never have been brought to understand why all of this is happening. You see, Lyme disease is a man-made disease. Anyone interested can contact me or post here and i'll be glad to elaborate. And it seems to me that all of these issues point back to one thing, and that's the New World Order. Take it or leave it. Research or dismiss. Just sayin', Kath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juanster Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 I would have preferred that OBL be captured and tried. But, he was a dangerous man who killed thousands of innocent people and his capture, IMO, would not have been worth risking a single life in capturing him. He continued to encourage and inspire extremists to take innocent lives. I don't celebrate his death, but I also cannot shed any tears for him as the world is better off with him gone. George Geo. From the many varied replies to this question, it appears that the revelations of Torah are being ignored or totally disregarded. There are some passages of scripture which if recognized by Christianity, would clarify all of the strife that has taken place in the middle east, since the Crucifiction. Gen.9:27, states: "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he will dwell in the tents of Shem..." As I read further into the geneology and posterity of Japheth, the people he was the patrioch of,were dispersed to a section of the planet we today know as Europe, Scandinavia and Russia. Japheth's brothers;Shem and Ham were sent in the opposite directions; East and Southeast for Shem's bunch and West and Southwest for the Hamitic crowd, starting from the resting place of the Ark in Turkey. This was how ,allegedly, that area of the planet was repeopled after the Flood. Gen.10:1-5 provides the posterity of Japheth. Gen.11:10=32 is the geneology of Shem, the patrioch of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. As you go down through the ages until you come to the Covenant God made with Abraham,you'll notice that not one of the descendants of Japheth was a party to or included in this Covenant between God and Abraham and his SEED. The enlargement of Japheth took place in three stages; 1. The Depotatation of Israel's ten Tribesand the conversion of the replacement emmigrees; 2. During the last part of the captivity of the tribe of Judah,out of fear of Mordechi 3. During the mass conversion of the Kazars to Judahism. It has only been with this last group that conflict has arisen amongst the SEED of Abraham and the Converted Seed of Japheth. Prior to this last group's arrival into the promised land, The Seed of Jacob and the seed of Ishmael were congenial and respectful of each others religious practises. The Talmud refuses to be tolerant and views the seed of Ishmael as Chattle to be exploited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeW Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Juan, 1. One can find support for almost any point of view or make any sort of prediction (see rapture on May 21 as one example) by selecting some "revelation" of the Bible. 2. I fail to see how your version of Japheth relates to the assassination of bin Laden. (You seem to have been responding to my comment about the death of bin Laden) 3. I am a little bothered by this "SEED of Abraham" stuff. This seems to imply that some Jews enjoy racial purity while others do not, and that this racial purity is important. FWIW, this claim that European Jews are 'just' converts is factually wrong. Both credible history and DNA testing demonstrate their Jewish origins. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephM Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 I am not in favor of censoring posts so i will leave them minus the video but the mission of the forum does not include promoting conspiratorial theories or more than a casual discussion of them in this cafe area. In my view, both Juanster and Kath have exceeded the temperament of this area in using this forum to promote such issues and also by "wandering into a topic related to progressive Christianity, without starting a thread for that part of the conversation" (see guidelines) . There are other forums dedicated to Conspiratorial issues and the like which are more appropriate to those interested. TCPC's mission includes promoting justice and peace. However, when the cafe discussion sounds more like individuals promoting an agenda and other sites or wandering into a debate than just sharing a personal view as it originally started out, i feel it is time to close the thread. I am sincerely sorry if this offends anyone but i am just trying to do what i have been assigned as best as i understand it and am able. Unfortunately, i am human and my decisions may not always be founded in shared wisdom or complete knowledge, so for those disagreeing, i hope you will overlook any perceived shortcomings in my judgement in closing this thread. JosephM (as Forum Administrator) edited 11:32AM JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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