Knowledge And Faith

[glintofpewter]

All,

 

Thanks for your responses.

 

Rivanna

To me, there’s no reason to apologize for your thoughtful summary – particularly liked “It is not knowledge that we seek” and “God is only experienced relationally.”

I did spend several hours on it. Thanks. Obviously "relationally" is key

 

Mike

Hope you are well, friend.

Thanks it is a stressful time.

 

Joseph

I appreciate your reserve and unrelated phone call.

 

Bill,

I really like the following

 

faith is seen as trusting that what is being experienced leads to deepening relationship.

It seems to speak to my concern about a "certain faith". Deepening relationships involves all those experiences we like to put into dichotomies in the Tao Te Ching discussion not just 1/2 of them. I think the issue is also addressed in "The Shack". It is a faith that is uncertain about what will happen recognizing that a deepening relationship is possible in the experience.

 

Dutch

[Mike]

To All,

 

All your support of Dutch in this thread is commendable but to clarify some TCPC board etiquette ....

 

It was wise of Dutch on his own to perceive that his comments, in many of his own words, on what others said, however interesting, are not something that is necessarily a good exercise in edification for all. It is often wiser to merely quote someone exactly as written and respond with your view rather than to put what they say in your own words as if they said it except as a question to the one who said it.

 

Putting in a disclaimer for presumptions and then speaking for what another said in your own words, while it sounds reasonable, is not a wise solution to making presumptions here. While no one was hurt or injured nor was Dutch notified by me or any moderator concerning his post, the official position here is his concern/sensitivity toward others was warranted and is commendable.

 

JosephM(as Moderator/Admin)

 

　

 

I do see the wisdom in your words. Thanks for clarifying.

[Kyler Rush]

In my opinion, religion cannot exist without knowledge. You can't worship or think about something you don't know about. I see knowledge as the mother of religion and man the father of it, with God as the father of knowledge. Without knowledge, man would know nothing. Shoot, without knowledge we would have never left the garden of Eden! Yet at the same time, we would never know good vs evil. Without knowledge man is nothing.

You've heard the expression, "Knowledge is power." I respectfully disagree. Knowledge is only power if you put it to use. For instance, if a pastor knows their congregation would benefit from a sermon on a particular subject but does not preach on it, they have done nothing with this knowledge they have not used this power for the benefit of their people.

Even if knowledge exists, it can't do anything by itself, and neither can religion. Religion cannot function without knowledge. It depends on knowledge for survival. You can't have one without the other, in many cases anyway. I'm sure the rules of hop-scotch don't require religion.

Quoting from a movie entitled, "Willy the Sparrow." Cipur, an old sparrow magically turned human, tells Willy at the end of the film, "Knowledge is everything. We never stop learning." This to me implies that life, and religion, is an eternal learning experience.

I hope I've stayed within the boundaries of the question.

 

Kyler.

[JosephM]

(snip)

You've heard the expression, "Knowledge is power." I respectfully disagree. Knowledge is only power if you put it to use. For instance, if a pastor knows their congregation would benefit from a sermon on a particular subject but does not preach on it, they have done nothing with this knowledge they have not used this power for the benefit of their people.

(snip)

 

Kyler.

 

Kyler,

 

Well said. So true....

 

Joseph

[minsocal]

In a world without doubt, what does faith mean? Well, can I hold on to myself and not give in to fear when things do not go my way? Can I cope with disappointments without losing my sense of direction in life? Am I, or am I not, a significant creature and a manifestation of God's goodness? In recent months I have come to understand these questions a bit better. As I am now emerging from some of the bitterest disappointments life has to offer, I find myself looking at knowledge from a different perspective. I ask less to 'know that' and more often to 'know how'.

[JosephM]

Greetings Myron,

 

Yes, Perhaps asking "how" is the deeper question concerning knowledge. Would you share with us what you learned of these things through your ordeal that preadventure it might benefit someone else here?

 

Joseph

[glintofpewter]

Kyler,

 

This to me implies that life, and religion, is an eternal learning experience.

 

So true. Although my experiences seem harder and harder to grasp and hold as certain knowledge. I just get to say today, "This is my story." if there is time I might add, "I think it means ....." For me knowledge is a moving foundation. Never where you left it.

 

Dutch

[Neon Genesis]

Speaking of as an atheist, I think this question depends on how we define faith. The way I see it is that there are two different types of faith. The first is Faith with a capital F. This is the type that is most popular with modern religion today. That is it is a blind faith that shuns critical thinking and questioning, it is the "evidence of things not seen." But as Armstrong argues in The Case For God, this is a modern definition of the word faith. The Greek word for faith used in the NT literally means "trust" and faith used to be more about actions rather than about believing a set of beliefs. This is what I call faith with a lower case f. In this sense that faith is trust in our actions, I do not think faith is incompatible with knowledge and just like a certain degree of skepticism can be healthy, I also think it's important to trust in our ideals. But I think the sort of blind faith that's more popular in fundamentalism religion that defines faith as absolute certainty is incompatible with knowledge. Because as the saying goes, "the only certain thing in life is uncertainty." I also think that defining faith as blind absolute certainty risks turning God into an idol and misses the point of religion, that religion is about our actions in this life, not about faith in the next life as it is commonly understood.