Correcting misconceptions

[toty]

💥🩸 Members of a famous American gang embrace Islam with Sheikh Othman"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4hyBu_YoUM&t=177s

[tariki]

58 minutes ago, toty said:

 

And in Matthew 16-27: and then he will reward each person according to what they have done

Hi @toty, your fundamental error (or I should say, the fundamental error of Dr Zakir Naik) is to project Islamic belief onto Christianity. This in as much as for Islam the actual text of the Quran is the Word of God. 

For Christianity, as it is known, as it has been taught, the Word of God is Jesus Christ as revealed in the Biblical text.

Therefore your constant quoting of New Testament verses to "prove" the "truth" of your assertions (or rather, Dr Zakir Naik's assertions) is on shaky foundations from the very start. 

Thus you miss Grace, and substitute works. 

[tariki]

The topic title is "Correcting Misconceptions". Reading through (quickly!) I'm not really sure if I'm answering  @toty or Zakir Naik.

 

But whoever, there seems to be some attempt to reduce every Religion to some sort of prefiguring of Islam - Islam being asserted as the final revelation of the Creator God of our Cosmos.

 

Apparently, Mr Naik is seen as some sort of expert on comparative religion. Being intetested in this subject myself, I find his conclusions very questionable. 

 

When I think of the teachings of some of the great Perennialists such as Rene Guenon, and Frithjof Schuon, Titus Burkhardt and Marco Pallis,  I have to say that the thoughts of Zakir Naik in his videos seem simplistic and superficial.

Again, compared to such books as "Concordant Discord" by the Catholic R. C. Zaehner (which attempts to reduce all the various religions to a basically Christian orthodox understanding) Mr Naik's thought is naive. 

Just looking up Zakir Naik's words on Buddhism and I find that he actually asserts that Mohammad is prophesied in the Buddhist texts (!), as well as asserting that the Buddha himself was silent on the existence or non-existence of God. Such is juvenile and frankly, ignorant, and a total misunderstanding of the "silence of the Buddha" on metaphysical questions. 

Well, I will say no more. @toty seems incapable of entering into any serious debate, and seems to prefer posting video links and simply asserting the pre-eminence of Islam. 

 

[PaulS]

On 7/30/2024 at 2:57 AM, tariki said:

Apparently, Mr Naik is seen as some sort of expert on comparative religion. Being interested in this subject myself, I find his conclusions very questionable. 

Naik may be a qualified Doctor (not sure where he got his degree) but he is by no means 'smart' when it comes to understanding science and biblical scholarship.  I find his messages are exceptionally 'dumbed down' for his audience (fundamental Muslims) and are loaded with the most basic, wrong assertions that only feed into the ignorance and misunderstanding that these audiences most likely already have.  To me, in essence, he is identical to a Christian preacher teaching his flock what they already know to be the truth - that is, he reinforces the dogmas that they have already fully bought into.  There is no genuine challenge in thought, and clearly by the posts seen from the likes of @toty/@akay, there is no thinking for yourself or challenging things.  It's all just blind adherence and worshipping of false idols.

[romansh]

21 hours ago, PaulS said:

his [NAIK'S] messages are exceptionally 'dumbed down' for his audience (fundamental Muslims) and are loaded with the most basic, wrong assertions that only feed into the ignorance and misunderstanding

this needs to be highlighted for @toty

[PaulS]

14 hours ago, romansh said:

this needs to be highlighted for @toty

Well, Naik's misconceptions could certainly do with some correcting, but when a listener/viewer has their mind already set on the answer, it is difficult for them to entertain a different way of thinking.

[romansh]

A bit of fun

[PaulS]

Well, it's true to the Jesus cult!

[toty]

Therefore, good deeds and faith in God (the Father) will remain the basis through which people will be held accountable before God. Christ will not bear the mistakes of people.

The four scribes disagreed on the issue of crucifixion, and their statements are conflicting. Here, I cannot be certain that Christ was the crucified one.

I do not rely for salvation from hell on a book that The four scribes do not know how to verify the facts in it
 
Therefore, the opinion of the party that supports crucifixion does not matter because they are seeking the help of these false scribes!

 

A study of the Bible, especially the accounts of the crucifixion, reveals various inconsistencies. These contradictions question the reliability of the Bible we have today and what is mentioned within it. Just as a lawyer, on hearing differing accounts from so-said eyewitnesses that place the entire case into doubt, is compelled to question the reliability of what he has heard, so too is the case with students of religion when they read various clashing accounts in the Bible.

In most cases, the authenticity of an eyewitness is completely dropped when a story, between two people, doesn’t match.
None of the four gospel writers was an eyewitness to the crucifixion; we only have second-hand reporting. Now, I’m no lawyer, but I know enough to know that second-hand reporting in courts, in some cases, is ruled out.

. Seeing such differences, any student of religion is compelled to seriously question the authenticity of their words.

Vinegar or myrrh
Before Jesus was placed on the cross, the Bible states he was given something to drink.
Matthew writes:
“They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.” (Matthew 27:34)
However, Mark states:
“And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.” (Mark 15:23)
Luke and John are quiet regarding this matter.

Time of the crucifixion
It is important to record the time at which an incident occurred when determining the authenticity of a story. This is, among all other evidence, a crucial point that can build the authenticity of a narration. If there seems to be a complication or mismatch between two stories of the same incident, it opens the entire case to more questions.
When we read the Bible, two different times in the accounts of the crucifixion have been recorded by Mark and John.
Mark states:
“And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.” (Mark 15:25)
“And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!” (John 19:14)

And
The color of Jesus' robe

We read in Matthew 27:28, “And they stripped him and put on him a scarlet robe.” This was just before the crown of thorns scene. So there he was naked except for the scarlet robe.

 

The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe
◄ John 19:2 ►

 

أمريكية تعتنق الإسلام وتعاتب المسلمين"لما ذا لم يخبرنا أحد عن هذا؟" مقـطع جـد مؤثـر "Muslim revert "

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQeK67rubmQ

 

صبيان من أمريكا سافرا لبريطانيا في مهمة تنصيرية لكن اصطدما بالشيخ عثمان فكشف حقيقة إيمانهما

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW9Tet996LE

 

 

The first meeting between Hashem and the Christian missionary Ken | A clip worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcQtBlOPEd0

A dangerous prophecy that no one talks about from the Bible proves that Christ was not crucified and raised to heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K7Lc9ZYCKA

Edited August 1 by toty

[tariki]

1 hour ago, toty said:

Therefore, 

Therefore.......you have missed the point of virtually everything posted here by others.

😀

[PaulS]

15 hours ago, toty said:

The four scribes disagreed on the issue of crucifixion, and their statements are conflicting. Here, I cannot be certain that Christ was the crucified one.

In short @toty (as perhaps you may not understand that this is a Progressive Christian website):

-Scholars by and large agree that a man named Jesus was crucified, and that the varying accounts within the New Testament support this in a number of ways. It's a lot more technical than just agreeing that because it's written in the NT that it is true, but for numerous reasons scholars and academics agree the basics - that the character named Jesus, as discussed in the NT, was a real-life person, executed by crucifixion, most likely because he was seen as a threat to societal stability (i.e. he was causing disruption within Judaism) which in turn could cause issues for the Roman rulers of the day.

-The logic and reasoning behind asserting that Jesus was divine himself, and a human sacrifice to God to appease this notion that all humans by the very nature of their birth need forgiving for being born, is widely disagreed in Progressive Christianity. 

-Progressive Christianity largely challenges the idea that many concepts within the NT are 'historical', and largely it recognises the human conditions of opinion, bias, culture and context.  Much like Mohammad had his personal take on things, so too do many NT (and OT) writers.

- You say "Now, I’m no lawyer, but I know enough to know that second-hand reporting in courts, in some cases, is ruled out.".  So 2nd-hand reporting is actually called 'Hearsay' and it is never permitted in a court of law.  But of course, it exists everyday - like when people tell me that Mohammad meant this or that, as they interpret it from the Koran and the dogma they have been exposed to.  Clearly those people do not actually know, but of course it doesn't stop them from believing so.

In fact, one could easily regard the entire Quran as hearsay and not admissible as evidence in a court of law either, because no person can verify that the writings we have today are an exact copy of the original writings! In fact, the whole Quran and the entire bible are both in fact 'Hearsay', because originals do not in fact, exist. Both are just versions of what other people tell us was original.

 

[romansh]

On 7/31/2024 at 4:43 PM, PaulS said:

Well, it's true to the Jesus cult!

I think Mo has a point here. The whole salvation thing makes little sense from a literal point of view. I have never come across a metaphorical interpretation that seemed viable.

[PaulS]

4 hours ago, romansh said:

I think Mo has a point here. The whole salvation thing makes little sense from a literal point of view. I have never come across a metaphorical interpretation that seemed viable.

In Judaism, there was never a belief in eternal punishment.  Everybody* went to the same place when they died - Sheol.  This place was neither 'good' nor 'bad' - it's just where souls retired to after death.  A sort of 'nothing' place. If 'salvation' was anything, it was about 'getting right' with God during their human existence on this planet.

*I say everybody, because by and large that's what was believed.  Occasionally, some 'special' person might get to go to  Heaven (Moses, Elijah) and live alongside God, but not your average punter.

The understanding Christianity (and Islam) has today of Heaven & Hell is something that developed over time, starting about 200BCE when the concept of an eternal Hell was introduced to Israel by the Greeks. Hell as Christianity (and Islam) preach it today, simply was not a 'thing' to Jews prior to a couple of hundred years before Jesus. It is simply a figment of our imagination, developed in a cultural context over hundreds of years, when religious people and philosophers alike turned their attention to 'justice' and began to think that it wasn't fair that nasty people don't get punished so to speak (e.g. unjust rulers controlling other populations - seemingly do so without repercussions).

The 'justice' of Hell was the start of my doubts about 'traditional' Christianity (I say 'traditional' Christianity because people think of mainstream Christianity today as how it was the moment after Jesus died - it wasn't of course). An individual lives maybe 100 human years on this earth, lives perhaps a very good life but doesn't believe the bible or Quran, but that apparently is enough for their loving father to allow that child to suffer a trillion,zillion,billion years of eternal torment and suffering! Yet other loved ones and family members will be living it up and slapping themselves on the back in Heaven for having made the 'right' choice, and thanking God that they aren't down there suffering like their loved ones! Craziness!

[tariki]

10 hours ago, PaulS said:

 suffer a trillion,zillion,billion years of eternal torment and suffering! 

As I said in my Cafe ramblings, it is the thought of perpetual that will convince any morally sensitive person of the impossibility of an actual hell. The finite mind simply reels away in total incomprehension/horror when the implications of "perpetual" begin to penetrate. 

Many Christians of such sensitivity are now exploring the doctrines of Universalism, taught widely in the early church by various Church Fathers. Universalism has been a constant strand ever since, but often drowned out by the Infernalists (as David Bentley Hart calls those who believe in an eternal hell) 

 

[PaulS]

16 minutes ago, tariki said:

....it is the thought of perpetual that will convince any morally sensitive person of the impossibility of an actual hell. The finite mind simply reels away in total incomprehension/horror when the implications of "perpetual" begin to penetrate. 

The thing is....it doesn't, at least in lots and lots of cases.  I know many a Christian who is as compassionate as one could seem to be, but nonetheless they accept this doctrine.  Somehow they rationalise it as though "I don't need to understand it - if it's good enough for God then it's good enough for me", all the whilst not understanding that God has nothing to do with this man-made concept!

[tariki]

3 hours ago, PaulS said:

The thing is....it doesn't, at least in lots and lots of cases.  I know many a Christian who is as compassionate as one could seem to be, but nonetheless they accept this doctrine.  Somehow they rationalise it as though "I don't need to understand it - if it's good enough for God then it's good enough for me", all the whilst not understanding that God has nothing to do with this man-made concept!

Well, yes, I've known this from my shady past! One guy, who most of the time was of a kind and friendly disposition.......until the subject of religion arose. I said to him one day that there could not possibly be a hell and he began to beat a fist into the palm of his other hand and cried out..."That shall suffer forever and forever and forever......" with each "forever" accompanying the beat! 

Another guy, I asked how could God "wipe every tear from every eye" (as promised in Revelation) if there were people in hell, and he just said "God says he will, so I believe it". The quandary simply did not exist for him. 

Whatever, the Eastern Orthodox theologian Nicolas Berdyaev has said that the exstence of hell is:-

.incomprehensible, inadmissable and revolting. It is impossible to be reconciled to the thought that God could have created the world and man if He forsaw hell, that He could have predetermined it for the sake of justice, or that He tolerates it as a special diabolical realm of being side by side with His own Kingdom. From the divine point of view it means that creation is a failure. The idea.....is altogether unthinkable and, indeed, incompatible with faith in God. A God who deliberately allows the existence of eternal torments is not God at all but is more like the devil. Hell......is a fairy tale; there is not a shadow of reality about it; it is borrowed from our everyday existence with its rewards and punishments. The idea of an eternal hell.......is one of the most hideous and contemptible products of the triumphant herdmind........From the point of view of God, there cannot be any hell. To admit hell would be to deny God.

Berdyaev, as said, is of the Eastern Orthodox Church where Universalism has had a more vibrant life.

 

Edited August 4 by tariki

[toty]

 

Many of the ancient Christians denied the crucifixion of Christ, and Christian historians mentioned the names of many Christian groups that denied the crucifixion.

These sects are: the Basilidians, the Corinthians, the Carpocraitons, the Sathenrians, the Marcionians, the Pardesians, the Cerinthians, the Parascalians, the Paulicians, the Minnesians, the Titanians, the Docetians, the Marcians, the Philanthians, and the Hermeticians.

Some of these sects date back to the first century AD

Some of these sects do not worship Christ and deny his crucifixion

Christ is the  prophet of God

As for your belief that Christ was crucified, this is a false belief, and your Book has proven its falsehood. In the Gospel of Luke 4: 29-30,  

29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.

John 8: 59 said: ( 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

University of Birmingham Qur’an manuscript among world’s oldest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-HDFiC2boQ

Muslims implement the teachings of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, more than Christians themselves

https://www.facebook.com/100059866625821/videos/3656995964622984

Jesus was not crucified according to 1st Century Christians

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKvfOErSeCA

Edited August 5 by toty

[toty]

 

>For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/17-11.htm

 

 

In Leviticus chapter 17, God gives instructions regarding sacrifices and offerings, particularly on the proper slaughtering of animals. The people of Israel were to bring each animal to the tabernacle entrance for the priest to offer. The blood of the animal was never to be treated as common food; it belonged to God, who is the giver of life (Genesis 2:7; Job 33:4; Psalm 139:13). Thus, the blood of animals had to be drained and offered to God on the altar.

 

Blood was God’s ordained means of effecting atonement: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life” (Leviticus 17:11). Atonement for sin was achieved by sacrificing an animal’s life in substitution for one’s own life. The shedding of blood was the most critical element—it was the blood of the guiltless substitute offered on the altar that served as payment for the people’s sins (Leviticus 16:15).

 

التضحية البشرية ما بين إبراهيم ويسوع | هاشم وصبور في حوار مع مسيحي
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxz_47if-PM

 

 

 

[toty]

If a person is given a chance to examine the biography of Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) comprehensively from all aspects, while breaking free from the fetters of personal bias, he will definitely conclude that such a great man cannot be but a Prophet who received revelation and a Messenger from the Lord of the Worlds.

This comprehensive examination can be done by two means:

First: A detailed exploration of his sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) biography, probing into his life at times of peace and war, prosperity and distress, health and sickness, residence and travel, his private domestic life and public social life ... etc.

Whoever probes deeply into these vital aspects of his life, assuming the role of a vigilant observer while considering the subsequent events, will inevitably conclude his Prophethood and deduce that he sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) was not merely a great man but rather a true Messenger of Allah entrusted with the divine revelation.

Second: Reflecting on some of the abundant signs and miracles with which Allah, the Exalted, aided him and which could only be possible by some form of divine intervention in violation of cosmic laws and norms.

It was narrated on the authority of ‘Abdullah Ibn Mas‘ood may Allah be pleased with him that the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) said: “Adhere to truthfulness, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise, and a man continues to tell the truth and persistently adheres to truthfulness till he is recorded with Allah as a truthful person. Beware of lying, for lying leads to wickedness, and wickedness leads to Hellfire, and a man continues to tell lies and persistently adheres to lying till he is recorded with Allah as a liar.” [Imam Al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim]

Testimonies of some unbiased orientalists and others

Let us ponder over some examples of such testimonies, briefly highlighted below, to clarify this point.

Washington Irving the well-known American writer and hi said: “The actions of the Messenger after the triumphant conquest of Makkah clearly indicated that he was a sent Prophet rather than a victorious military commander!”

Régis Blachère the famous French orientalist and Quran translator who said: “There were interrelated reasons for the triumph of Islam, the foremost of which were the Quran, the Sunnah, the religious situation of the Hijaaz then, and the truthfulness, honesty, and trustworthiness of the man who was sent to communicate the message that was revealed to him.”

Marcel A. Boisard the well-known Swiss diplomat and intellectual said: “Muhammad was a Prophet, not a social reformer. His message triggered fundamental changes in the existing Arab society then and their effects are still perceptible in the contemporary Islamic society.”

Emile Dermenghem the famous archivist and journalish who said: “Muhammad had a son with Mariyyah Al-Qibtiyyah (the Coptic), and his name was Ibraheem, who died as a child. The bereaved father was deeply saddened by his death. He buried him with his own hands and wept over him, and the sun eclipsed on that day. So, people said that the sun had eclipsed because of the death of Ibraheem, but Muhammad graciously refuted their claim and said: ‘The sun and the moon are two signs from amongst the signs of Allah. They do not eclipse for the death of anyone.’ Such a statement cannot be made by a lying charlatan.”

This explains to you why people embraced Islam and entered into the true religion of Allah in multitudes, and many of them did not even ask the Messenger of Allah sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) to bring forth special proofs and signs, but simply listened to what he sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) had to say, or observed his actions, or learned about his life, or witnessed firsthand his blessing, and they were accordingly guided by the shining signs of truth that illuminated their path

. Islam Web site

 

 

 

The scientific miracles of the Prophet and the scientific miracles of the Qur’an, whose authenticity has been proven by modern science, are sufficient to prove the validity of the revelation (the Qur’an), of which humans were unable to write one chapter.

Contrary to your book, which commands evil and society's corruption

And the Bible's scientific and historical errors

Hamza Tzortzis defends the Prophet in Speakers' Corner | Speakers Corner |

حمزة تزورتزيس يدافع عن النبي في ركن المتحدثين | Speakers Corner | Hyde Park
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLuFevO9xLU&t=117s

 

Scientists have proven the validity of the Qur’an scientifically, historically and morally
God promised to preserve the Qur’an

see here
Scientists' comments on Quran
https://www.islamicity.org/5437/scientists-comments-on-quran/

 

 القرآن يذهل العالم ويكشف 10 أسرار تاريخية عن الفراعنة ومصر القديمة لم تُكتشف إلا حديثاً

The Quran amazes the world and reveals 10 historical secrets about the Pharaohs and ancient Egypt that were only recently discovered

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylm0RMIeIKc

 Is the Quran from Allah or Satan? - Dr Zakir Naik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdx9_fucG58

Edited August 5 by toty

[toty]

The Prophet Jesus came to complete the law of the ancient prophets and correct the Jews' distorted belief.

Not every interpretation of Jewish and Christian scholars is correct. Many of them do not follow the words of Jesus, but rather follow their whims and the misguidance of people.

There is no unconditional love

faith and actions always work together

22 “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.

, Christ said

 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

John 17:3

  Christ  did not claim divinity and restricted divinity to God (the Father) alone

And in Matthew 16-27: and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

Key Verse: 2:22, “You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.”

 the main theme of the entire book of James: faith and actions always work together. In James’ time, there were some people who claimed to have faith without any practical evidence. They thought that faith should be grounded on sound doctrine and that was most important; which is true. But they tended to dismiss action as irrelevant. They claimed to have saving faith without any visible evidence in their practical lives. James refuted this idea very clearly, saying that faith and deeds work together, and that faith without deeds is dead. Genuine faith always produces actions.

Yes, hell exists, according to the Bible. Despite the Bible’s clear teaching of both heaven and hell, it is not unusual for people to believe in the reality of heaven while rejecting the reality of hell

The Bible speaks of the reality of hell in the same terms as the reality of heaven (Revelation 20:14–15; 21:1–2). The concept of a real, conscious, forever-and-ever existence in hell is just as biblical as a real, conscious, forever-and-ever existence in heaven. Trying to separate them is simply not possible from a biblical standpoint.

 I do agree with the day of God's judgement where all men will be judged according to their works

Jesus used various metaphors when speaking about hell since he knew that his first-century listeners would understand these metaphors. One such example is found in Mark where Jesus used the phrase “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” (9:48) to describe hell.

The clearest reference to hell was made by Jesus when he told the story of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31. Notable in that passage is the following:

    The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire. (Luke 16:22-24)

As you can clearly see from this passage of Scripture, Jesus believes in hell. The rich man was in torment and in flames. He begged for a small amount of water to relieve his suffering and also begged that Lazarus be sent to warn his family of the very real dangers of dangers of hell.

Dr Zakir Naik Scientifically & Logically Proves to an Atheist the Existence of Hell & Heaven

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUf9i79u7vI

 Is 'Christianity' leading you to Paradise or Hell? - Dr Zakir Naik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKziRgo_L7E

Edited August 5 by PaulS
Too many gaps. Please try and make posts easily readable.

[PaulS]

46 minutes ago, toty said:

The Prophet Jesus came to complete the law of the ancient prophets and correct the Jews' distorted belief.

No, Jesus was a man born into Judaism, who developed some different views to the tradition at the time.

46 minutes ago, toty said:

Not every interpretation of Jewish and Christian scholars is correct. Many of them do not follow the words of Jesus, but rather follow their whims and the misguidance of people.

"The words of Jesus" are largely questionable.  In fact, everything attributed to Jesus (and Mohammad for that matter) is hearsay.  That is - there is no first-hand evidence of what was originally said or seen!

46 minutes ago, toty said:

Yes, hell exists, according to the Bible. Despite the Bible’s clear teaching of both heaven and hell, it is not unusual for people to believe in the reality of heaven while rejecting the reality of hell.

You clearly do not understand the bible's teachings then.  Hell, as Christianity purports it today, simply does NOT exist in the Hebrew Bible.  Don't take my word for it - study from biblical scholars!

46 minutes ago, toty said:

The Bible speaks of the reality of hell in the same terms as the reality of heaven (Revelation 20:14–15; 21:1–2). The concept of a real, conscious, forever-and-ever existence in hell is just as biblical as a real, conscious, forever-and-ever existence in heaven. Trying to separate them is simply not possible from a biblical standpoint.

Firstly, the 'Bible' does not describe Hell in any one singular sense.  The various words translated as hell - Gehenna, Sheol, Tartarus, Hades - all have explicitly different meanings, but in modern bibles they are ALL translated as Hell.  This is where dogma steps in and incorrectly assigns the same understanding to completely different meanings.  Sadly, Mohammad followed Christianity and created a version of hell that never existed back in Abraham's day!

46 minutes ago, toty said:

 I do agree with the day of God's judgement where all men will be judged according to their works

Don't hold your breath - but each to their own.

[tariki]

2 hours ago, toty said:

Genuine Faith always produces actions.

 

Hi there again, I agree with the above. Unfortunately you are far too quick to remount your hobby horse and grind out your own (sic) opinions and beliefs, appearing to think that no one else (or Zakir Naik) has ever seriously thought about such things, or studied them.

 

Unconditional love is the foundation of Faith. Thus true Faith issues in "unconditional" actions of love. 

That such is so can be seen by the fact that the fruits of the spirit spoken of in the NT....

love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control

......can be seen and found in people of ALL beliefs and in some of no particular belief at all. 

 

Again, I have spoken before about the New Testament being a witness to the Living Word, Christ (the Universal Christ) You simply seek to reduce it to the same level as the Quran i.e. the Word as word/text. Thus you go astray and continue to quote its verses without understanding - indeed, without true Faith. 

 

The Christian mystic Meister Eckhart has said:-

In giving us His love God has given us the Holy Spirit so that we can love Him with the love wherewith He loves Himself.

Loving "Him" is in fact to love ALL unconditionally. They are one and the same. 

As the Old Testament says, God's mercy "endures forever" (Psalm 136) - thus no one is ever finally lost, no matter your own misguided insistence, based upon quoting the New Testament as text, not understanding the Living Word that truly speaks through it. 

Just to add, Universalism was taught widely in the early Church by many of the early Church Fathers. It has been a constant strand in the Christian Faith ever since, and is now gaining ground from Infernalists like yourself who are made blind by conditioning and the warped teachings of such as Zakir Naik, who seems a very poor student of comparative religion.

All the best. 

 

Edited August 5 by tariki

[toty]

Luke 18:19 ““And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.”

Here I will quote what the Dictionary of the Bible says: (When the Bible ascribes perfection to a person, as the revelation says about Job: called Job. This man was upright . He feared God and shunned evil."

 

it does not mean absolute perfection, like God

. And I say: Yea, when the book is ascribed to Christ as being good, it is not for his perfection and righteousness as God, but as a man

Christ is the Messenger of God

 

the Quran describes how Mary, the mother of Jesus, was approached by an angel from God, bringing her tidings she had never imagined: that she will give birth to a son, a Messiah, who will be of the righteous and will be a prophet of God, calling the Children of Israel (the Israelites) to the straight path of God.

“(And mention) when the angels said, ‘O Mary, indeed God gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary – distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near (to God). He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous.” (Quran 3:45-46)

Naturally, for Mary, this news was both strange and seemingly impossible.

“She said, ‘My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?’ (The angel) said, “Such is God; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is. And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.” (Quran 3:47-4

The very nature of Jesus is so special, that God compares the uniqueness of His creation to that of the first man and prophet, Adam.

“Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, ‘Be,’ and he was.” (Quran 3:59)
Jesus and His Miracles

Jesus became one of the greatest prophets of God, and was sent to the Children of Israel in order to confirm the teachings of his predecessor, the Prophet Moses. His birth was a miracle, and, like all prophets of God, he was granted several miracles. He approached his people, telling them:

“And (make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (who will say), ‘Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord’ in that I design for you from the clay (that which is) like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of God. And I cure the blind (from birth) and the leper, and I give life to the dead – by permission of God. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. And (I have come) confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear God and obey me. Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path.” (Quran 3:49-51)
Jesus’s Followers

The Quran continues the story of Jesus by relating several incidents of his life and his disciples.

“But when Jesus felt (persistence in) disbelief from them, he said, ‘Who are my supporters for (the cause of) God?’ The disciples said,” We are supporters for God. We have believed in God and testify that we are Muslims (submitting to Him.) Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger (i.e., Jesus), so register us among the witnesses (to truth).” (Quran 3:52-53)

In another incident, after which an entire surah (chapter) of the Quran is named, the disciples of Jesus asked him for another miracle.

“(And remember) when the disciples said, ‘O Jesus, Son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table (spread with food) from the heaven?’ (Jesus) said, ‘Fear God, if you should be believers.’ They said, ‘We wish to eat from it and let our hearts be reassured and know that you have been truthful to us and be among its witnesses.’ Said Jesus, the son of Mary, ‘O God, our Lord, send down to us a table (spread with food) from the heaven to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, and You are the best of providers.’” (Quran 5:112-114)

God sent them the table they had asked for, but not without a warning.

“God said, ‘Indeed, I will sent it down to you, but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you – then indeed will I punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds.’” (Quran 5:115)
The End of the Story?

The story of Jesus never really ends in the Quran, as we are told that Jesus was not killed, but that rather, God raised His beloved prophet up to Him.

“(Mention) when God said, ‘O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify (i.e., free) you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you (in submission to God alone) superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.’ But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.” (Quran 3:55-57)

The Quran also points out that Jesus was neither killed nor crucified. Speaking of the Children of Israel, God faults their accusations against Mary as well as their claim that they killed Jesus.

“And (We cursed them) for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander. And (for) their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but (another) was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, God raised him to Himself. And ever is God Exalted in Might and Wise.” (Quran 4:156-15

The Quran confirms that Jesus was raised up by God, and the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, reassured us that Jesus will be sent down to earth once again before the Day of Judgment. In a saying of Prophet Muhammad, narrated by Abu Hurairah, the Prophet said:

“By the One in Whose hand is my self, definitely the son of Maryam will soon descend among you as a just judge, and he will break the cross, kill the pig, and abolish the jizyah (tribute), and wealth will be so abundant that no one will accept it, until a single prostration will be better than the world and everything in it.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)


The Deen Show: The Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus isn't God by Brother Joshua Evans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z29jFDmkoEc

 

[tariki]

Hi @toty, 

Many Christians insist upon interpreting the Old Testament according to what they presume the New Testament teaches.

You insist upon interpreting the New Testament as the Quran/Islam teaches. 

 

All this really gets us, and you, nowhere. 

 

FIRST you need the knowledge, the study, the will, the empathy to understand each on their own terms. As the believers in each have, and do, understand them.

 

Then we might begin to truly understand each other. Which is the beginning of knowledge. Maybe even the knowledge of God. 

Simply beating out the understanding of Islam - as interpreted by Zakir Naik - is of no consequence, at least for me. 

Edited August 7 by tariki

[toty]

Scripture is clear that Hell is a real, dreadful place of eternal torment
It is only fair that God punishes the wicked.

The notion of the immortality of the soul (without an accompanying body) is of gentile origin, not Jewish. Daniel 12:1-2 speaks to the issue: (1) .” . . but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. (2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The point here is that both the wicked and the righteous will be reunited with their bodies in resurrection and as such (i.e., as whole persons, body and soul) will either go to heaven or hell.

Matthew 10:28 is also significant along these lines: “Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” What is important to note here is that the place of the destruction of the body is hell. If the body were dead before the soul goes to hell, Jesus could not have said this.

Matt 25:46: “The [wicked] will go into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” The parallel (as well as the discourse up until this point) leads us to only one conclusion: the place of torment parallels the place of blessing in its eternal nature. Further, there is no hint of distinction between the righteous and the wicked in terms of body-soul combination. If the righteous go to heaven in body and soul (what else could the resurrection mean?), then the wicked go to hell in body and soul.

 What is Hell Like?

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. – Matthew 25:41 ESV

while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 8:12 ESV

A word often translated into Hell is the Greek term, “Gehenna.” This phrase was first used in the Old Testament to refer to the Valley of Hinnom, a ravine outside of Jerusalem. It was a place of death (Jeremiah 31:40), idolatry, and even child sacrifice (Jeremiah 7:31). King Josiah, however, put an end to these wicked practices (2nd Kings 23:10), and the Valley of Hinnom eventually became a trash and sewage dump where fires burned continually to eliminate the waste.

Jesus used the Valley of Hinnom as an illustration to describe Hell, and for good reason. Hell is a place of eternal fire (Matthew 25:41) and utter darkness (Matthew 8:12). For many, this seems hard to believe. How could a place with eternal flames also be a place of darkness? But with God nothing is impossible. Additionally, Hell is described in Scripture as punishment, everlasting destruction and alienation from God for all eternity (2nd Thessalonians 1:6-9). It’s a place where God’s wrath will be poured out onto those who’ve sinned against Him (Romans 2:8).

 it appears that the fate of the wicked is justified in that even punishment seems to produce no change in their character. It is amazing that the rich man, in a state of torment (Lk. 16:23ff), though requesting relief, and soliciting a warning for his earthly brothers, never expresses a word of repentance for his disobedience, nor does he plead for the opportunity to leave his abode in order to dwell with God and his people. That speaks volumes. Make a notation to that effect.

see here
You will be shocked

Debate: Dr. Zakir Naik vs. Dr William Campbell - The Quran and the Bible in the Light of Science

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOD2KXXzsjM